Author Topic: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>  (Read 19989 times)

Offline Thomas

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2014, 02:33:39 pm »
Ah, I suppose I've been skimming over the division part, which brings up some questions.

I see that they're randomly generated, but what's considered 'reasonably balanced'?

It reminds me of the Sky League Groups, which were randomly put together. Should each division be made of teams around the same ranking? (ie: great teams all in one division, good teams in another, new teams in a third, etc) Or should the very experienced teams be spread around evenly?


Offline redria

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2014, 03:54:24 am »
Ah, I suppose I've been skimming over the division part, which brings up some questions.

I see that they're randomly generated, but what's considered 'reasonably balanced'?

It reminds me of the Sky League Groups, which were randomly put together. Should each division be made of teams around the same ranking? (ie: great teams all in one division, good teams in another, new teams in a third, etc) Or should the very experienced teams be spread around evenly?
This was something I wanted to look at but wasn't totally comfortable with. I suppose what I want is for like, 3-5 random generations, with the host looking at them and making a judgement call on what looks the most balanced. By no means should a host move teams around to satisfy their own whims, but it makes it generally better if the divisions are balanced.

By balanced I mean that each division would have about an equal distribution of good and new teams. Basically trying to avoid a situation where a mediocre team gets the glory of reaching the golden playoffs because their division was just that bad, only to be crushed out.
More importantly, it helps keep the really good teams out of the silver playoffs. The point of the silver playoffs is to give a goal to the teams who aren't quite matching up to the top teams. If all the top teams are in one division, then some will get sent to the silver playoffs, and all the good-but-not-great teams that expect to do well in the silver playoffs would get beaten down anyways.

I'm happy to take the balance point out if people are uncomfortable with it. Just spitballing here. ^.^

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2014, 06:03:53 am »
hey redria, I was told to go through your idea.
So i opened up the document and made some comments under the user René B.
I couldnt be bothered to go through the 3 walls of text in this thread to see if some of my points have been answered already and what not. I might also have missed some points here and there.

next thing I would like to see is the updated document with changes that you have made, and I will read it again.

Offline redria

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2014, 11:12:29 am »
hey redria, I was told to go through your idea.
So i opened up the document and made some comments under the user René B.
I couldnt be bothered to go through the 3 walls of text in this thread to see if some of my points have been answered already and what not. I might also have missed some points here and there.

next thing I would like to see is the updated document with changes that you have made, and I will read it again.
Thanks Skrim. I replied to each of your notes, and I will be going through and making adjustments today. If you want to look at my replies we can continue talking, or if you just want to wait and read through my change log and see what you think we can do that.

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2014, 11:39:30 am »
hey redria, I was told to go through your idea.
So i opened up the document and made some comments under the user René B.
I couldnt be bothered to go through the 3 walls of text in this thread to see if some of my points have been answered already and what not. I might also have missed some points here and there.

next thing I would like to see is the updated document with changes that you have made, and I will read it again.
Thanks Skrim. I replied to each of your notes, and I will be going through and making adjustments today. If you want to look at my replies we can continue talking, or if you just want to wait and read through my change log and see what you think we can do that.

you dont need to reply or defend your system. Im just giving you my feedback, if im the only one who is saying this as opposed to others saying im wrong, then maybe im wrong :p

Offline redria

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2014, 12:01:25 pm »
you dont need to reply or defend your system. Im just giving you my feedback, if im the only one who is saying this as opposed to others saying im wrong, then maybe im wrong :p
Ah, but I do need to reply. :)
The point of this is to be discussion. We have several weeks here where even if a plan was rock solid we couldn't move into production, and teams are going to want a break after sky league, along with various other events that may take place. Now is our opportunity to knock out every flaw we find.

It isn't about me or you being right or wrong, just us pointing out potential flaws and places for disagreement so we can find better solutions.

Already I know that I will have to rework the rules layout/ordering because about half of your concerns were just misunderstandings I think. I want the rules to flow and make sense so most everyone can understand it in a single reading. There are things I haven't updated from talks here, things I left out initially, and changes I noticed were needed but never made.

In short, I'm here because I want to discuss this. I will respond to any feedback because I want to make this as good as possible. ^.^

Offline redria

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2014, 10:41:56 am »
Some general questions for discussion...
1. Referee Requirements
Currently I am requiring a referee to attend each match. The referee has to keep track of several timers.

Flex Time - time in lobby for teams to make last second adjustments if needed
Team Pause Time - each team gets 4 minutes of pause time if a player drops out
Server Time - 5 minute pool of pause time for server problems
Match Time - 30 minute matches

This is a lot for one person, and requires 4 separate stopwatches.
Additionally, I wanted the ref to post the time remaining in match at regular intervals for the benefit of viewers and players, along with a countdown if time is running out.

Looking at it, I am clearly putting a lot on the ref. Anyone have thoughts on how to better handle this?

2. Best of Ones
Currently the structure revolves around best of one matches. Using best of 1, it is easy to schedule matches 40 minutes apart with little fear of running over from long matches, and with casters/refs not being punished with absurd wait times if a match ends early.
As a counter to the randomness of best of ones, the teams will have selected a map they prefer not to play, and those maps will not be in the random map selection. This allows teams to fight on more even terms.

Best of 3 gives the advantage of determining the stronger team. It removes a lot of the randomness of games and allows teams to make changes to come back and win.
However with scheduled start times, if a match ended early, refs and casters could end up waiting over an hour for the next game to start. Event times would run much longer, and require more casters and refs.

There is support for both sides. Would anyone like to discuss how they see the argument in relation to scheduled league play?
My opinion was that the randomness of best of 1 is actually a plus. It makes games more exciting for viewers, casters, and players.

3. No-Show Reward
Currently, my structure punishes a team for not showing with 1 loss. This is only fair. They failed to show, and as such have lost their match.
The second level of that is that if a team fails to show for 2 matches over the length of the season, they are ejected from the league for that season. There would be no repercussions outside of the current season.

On the flip side, my current structure rewards the team that did show with 0.8 points.
I want to reward a team for showing up. They did their part, and it is not their fault that their opponent failed to show.
However, it punishes everyone else who does have to play a game if a team is given a free win.
My balance idea was a reward of 0.8 wins, which rewards a team, but not with a full win. Thoughts? Is this silly? Should it be more or less?

4. Map Lockouts
Touched on in 2. When teams sign up, they privately submit a map of their choice. For the duration of the regular season, they will not have to play on this map. For each match they play, that map will be locked out, along with their opponent's lockout map.

Is this sensible? I think it helps pit strengths against strengths, making for a more exciting match, rather than forcing a team to play on a bad map for their style.

5. Playoffs Time Limits
In keeping with the scheduled games, I want the playoffs to run in an organized fashion. However, in the playoffs a game cannot end in a tie.
Current rules:
30 minutes - If either team is leading, that team wins. If teams are tied, first kill wins.
40 minutes - First armor break wins
50 minutes - First component destroy wins
60 minutes - Both teams are disqualified

Now, these are terrible rules. How can we force teams to end a game within a reasonable time if they end up tied at the timer?

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2014, 09:39:22 pm »
I like the randomness. I think teams should not be allowed to avoid a map. They'll know weeks in advance what they're playing on and have adequate time to prep.

We should allow ties. .4 for each team.


Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2014, 02:32:40 am »
Defined season is great...if it is ironed out well ahead of time and you have a fair system for maps and it isn't dependent on who wins or loses until the finals then count me in. This is kinda the similar idea setup I was looking at for Red Skies. Do it!

Offline redria

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2014, 12:12:26 pm »
Seems sort of interesting to me that the map idea isn't very popular. If no-one likes it I'll take it out. No problem.

Offline AbbyTheRat

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2014, 01:36:24 pm »
Honestly, I prefer less random. I am much more in favour of allowing a team to prep for a map.. I do think, however, that some randomness.. maybe in situations of tie breaks. I also like best of 3 but I understand the constraint with casting. Maybe a mix, Bo1 for divisions then for the champisonship, Bo3 then the finals being Bo5.

Offline redria

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2014, 01:15:44 pm »
Honestly, I prefer less random. I am much more in favour of allowing a team to prep for a map.. I do think, however, that some randomness.. maybe in situations of tie breaks. I also like best of 3 but I understand the constraint with casting. Maybe a mix, Bo1 for divisions then for the champisonship, Bo3 then the finals being Bo5.
Teams will know their maps, opponents, and times for the entire regular season from day 1. When I say that the schedule will be released by the Wednesday prior to the first day of matches, I mean a complete regular season schedule.

Tie breaks only factor in during playoffs. Otherwise games end in a draw. I think I said somewhere earlier, I want to preserve the option for all playstyles, while running to a schedule. Want to run a sniping match? Go ahead. If you haven't gotten to 5 kills when time runs out, the game is called (win, loss, or tie) and we move on. I'm not asking for 5 kills. :P

I originally considered extending to Bo3 and Bo5 for playoffs and finals, but every team will still be in one of the playoffs, and I want to run the playoffs in a single day each. with 2/3 of the teams n the Silver playoffs, there will still be a regular season day's worth of games in the one day. There continues to be time constraints even then.
But say we extend the playoffs to run multiple weekends for each playoff. Ignoring that the event is now growing uncomfortably long, it can be debated either way.
Running with the sports analogy and looking at championship finals,
  • American Football - Constrained by player fatigue, so playoffs do not run best of 3. Maintains atmosphere of the regular season: it is not necessarily the better team advancing, but the one who does better that day. Freak plays can change the game, and the underdog has a better shot. Played on a neutral site.
  • Basketball - Best of 7. Less player fatigue, so the finals can run longer. Endeavors to determine the best team. Matches are split between the home stadiums of the 2 teams. Initial matches may be of less interest.
  • Baseball - Best of 7. Pitcher fatigue/reserves give each game a different flavor as the pitching changes. Endeavors to determine the best team. Matches are split between the home stadiums of the 2 teams. Initial matches may be of less interest.
American football is played at a neutral site, helping eliminate the need for multiple games to cancel out home team advantage. GoIO is played on one of 5 maps, which may provide a "home" advantage to one team.
+1 to Bo3/5
Initial matches in Baseball and basketball may be less interesting simply due to the games not determining anything final. This puts less pressure on teams to perform at a high level every game.
+1 to Bo1
Underdog has a better chance in American football simply because a single game may not determine the best team, just who happened to come out on top.
+1 to Bo1

Since we are locked to the rules provided by the game (I would love to set a time limit on a match and just say fight until time runs out, or set the win limit to 10 instead of 5) the decision is really whether the championship can fairly rest on 5 kills.
During the playoffs, I support best of 1, with the higher seed having some input on the map selection. Not an overwhelming input, but some sort of say to reward them for earning the higher seed.
The finals are strongly up for debate. I like the concept of it still being Bo1, but with only 5 kills ending the season, it seems frighteningly high stakes. But that would be viewing heaven as well.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2014, 12:49:12 pm »
I have no clue who if anyone agrees with me but I always enjoyed best of ones.

Well not always... The suspense before matches was sickening but victories were euphoric.  Overall having that much resting on every match made everything more exciting and mental toughness just as important as skill.

Better to watch too in my opinion and of course less of a time commitment for teams.

Obviously one minor mistake can easily cost a match however your opponent suffers from the same disadvantage.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2014, 03:17:26 pm »
Things is, 'minor mistakes' aren't always the players' faults- sometimes there's a weird lag spike, or someone's computer crashes, and we don't get fair game.

Offline FluffyHetsche

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2014, 07:03:19 pm »
Things is, 'minor mistakes' aren't always the players' faults- sometimes there's a weird lag spike, or someone's computer crashes, and we don't get fair game.
Basically what happened in the first Gents vs Overwatch match yesterday *cough*
There were no rules regarding a situation like this and the aftermath was.. frustrating to say the least.