Zenith (concept for a new ship)

[Milevan Faent]

So I made a ship concept a while back that I abandoned due to realizing I couldn't edit the OP and I had written the description in such a way (and hadn't fleshed out the concept beforehand) that people had a lot of trouble understanding what I was trying to get across, and just kept saying the ship was a copy of the Mobula. I have since learned more of the game, and believe I can now get the concept across better. While I still won't be able to edit the post due to the illogical limitations placed on the forums by Muse, I can at least ask Mods to do it for me, even if I still feel that's really unfair to put the work on the mods like that. That all said, here's my revamped and expanded concept for the Zenith.

Statistics

I am going to start with a simplistic conceptual version of the stats for the ship, using a 1-5 scale based on the graphic used to display ship stats in the game when modifying a ship.

Speed 2.5 (vertical speed is above average, horizontal speed is just a bit below average)

Maneuverability 3.5 (horizontal acceleration is high, vertical acceleration is below average, turning speed is slightly above average, able to get really good altitude)

Durability 2

Armor 3.5

Firepower 4 (6 guns, but see below)

The ship is broken down into 2 levels, similar to the Mobula, but different. Engines and guns are semi-shielded by the hull from attacks to the sides (and front or back, depending on which level the component is on). Guns are angled either up or down depending on which level the gun is on. Upper guns are protected from the front of the ship, while lower guns are protected from the back.

Details

The ship is slightly narrow but long, similar to a skiff in shape. The front of the ship is where the primary ladder down to the lower deck is. The lower deck extends slightly beyond the upper deck, with places near the lower side guns where it is possible to "parkour" up and down to get between decks, although it is tricky. The rear of the top deck has a raised section (like in the picture). The section near the balloon also has "parkour holes", allowing a view straight through the ship to the bottom from the angle where the wheel for the captain sits due to the area around the Medium gun being mostly open.

The top deck has 3 light guns angled 30 degrees up and pointing to the rear, with the "side" guns pointing to the rear at a 30 degree angle to either side. Located at the middle of the top deck is the balloon, with the main engine located dead center to the rear. The pilot wheel is located on the raised section at the rear, with the main engine underneath the raised section. On the rear of the raised section is the rear middle gun, with the side rear guns to either side on the lower section.

The lower deck has 2 light guns and 1 medium gun. The Medium gun is angled straight down (and to the front if it matters), and near the front of the ship. The two light guns are located off to either side of the main section of the lower deck, but angled 45 degrees down and 20 degrees to either side from the front. Along the rest of the lower deck is the Hull compotent location, and to either side is the side engines (located near the "parkour" entrance to the lower deck). Due to their positions, the hull partially covers the guns from attacks from the sides and behind.

In theory this ship has no blind spots, since there are guns that can hit you no matter what side you approach from. However, due to the angles the guns are at, there are blind spots foward and above, as well as behind and below the ship. Immediately to either side may or may not put you in the firing arc of two of the side guns (one top, and one bottom), while forward and below will definitely put you in the firing arc of 2 guns, and 3 guns if you approach from above and behind. Obviously getting immediately below the ship is a death sentence, as there the medium gun can actually hit you.

Update as of 3/13/14

This is a remake of a remake of a ship concept now. Originally designed this as a bomber, but now I'm changing to a concept yet again. So here it is, the Zenith Mark II

Statistics



The ship is broken down into 2 levels, similar to the Mobula, but there the differences end. To start, lets give an overview of the layout.

Details

The ship is slightly narrow but long, similar to a skiff in shape. The front of the ship is where the primary ladder down to the lower deck is. The rear of the top deck has a raised section (like in the picture). The section near the balloon also has a massive hole, allowing a view straight through the ship to the bottom from the angle where the wheel for the captain sits due to the area around the Medium gun being mostly open. The balloon is attached via cables to the sides of the ship at the front (like a sail), with the space immediately below it empty, allowing a clear view from the front of the ship to behind the ship.

The top deck has 3 light guns located at the rear of the ship. Located at the front of the top deck is the balloon, with the main engine located dead center to the rear, behind the raised section and partially covered by it. The pilot wheel is located on top of the raised section at the rear. On the rear of the raised section is the rear middle gun, with the side rear guns to either side on the lower section. All three guns point to the rear. Just before the stairs that lead up to the raised section, and the edge of the hole in the deck, is the ladder leading between the decks.

The lower deck has 2 light guns and 1 medium gun. The medium gun points foward. The two light guns are located off to either side of the main section of the lower deck, pointing to their respective sides. Along the rest of the lower deck is the Hull compotent location which is located right next to the ladder, and to either side is the side engines. The rear guns would be to either side of the side engines if they were on the same deck.

In theory this ship has no blind spots, since there are guns that can hit you no matter what side you approach from. However, due to the locations the guns are at, the lower deck guns cannot fire up very easily due to the deck being in the way, while the upper deck guns likewise cannot fire down very easily, and have limited firing arcs due to the hull also being in the way. But here's the twist.

Located next to every gun is an interactable button. By stepping on the button, the gun that corresponds with that button will switch decks and positions as follows:

Middle rear gun (pilot's gun): lower deck facing foward, able to fire through the holes in the deck normally used by the other guns and various empty spaces.

Left and Right upper deck guns: lower deck pointing to either side with same setup as the forward side guns.

Medium gun: upper deck facing back toward the ship (the balloon is directly behind it). It has a clear shot in all directions up.

Left and Right lower deck guns: upper deck pointing forward, limited clearance to the sides due to the hull.

If a player is on a gun that has the button pushed, the gun will move the person using the gun with it. As a possible fix to stop trolls, moving a gun with a gunner in it might require the gunner to right click to confirm the move.

The above is merely a first rough draft. Suggestions on positions for the guns are welcome. I am likely to reduce the number of guns available as well. The end goal is to either make it so it is only possible to cover 3 sides of the ship at any one time, or make it so it is only possible to EFFECIENTLY cover 2-3 sides at a time (this option would require making it possible to get 2 guns pointed to any particular side, while requiring at least 1, maybe as many as 2 different sides only having 1 gun covering it, while perhaps also still having the possibility of no guns covering a side).

[Piemanlives]

While a description is great and all, a rough sketch or layout of some kind, based on the picture provided would do wonders, rather then a comparison of where certain objects are and where they lead. Also I would recommend you use the stats system provided by this table:

Ship Stats

Ship	Armor	Health	Speed (m/s)	Acceleration (m/s2)	Turn Speed (degrees/s)	Turn Accel. (degrees/s2)	Vertical Speed (m/s)	Vertical Accel. (m/s2)	Mass (tonnes)
Goldfish	400	1100	40.11	3.5	13.99	7.99	16.99	3.25	150
Junker	700	500	26.01	4.3	16.18	15.24	17.06	3.00	125
Squid	230	850	47.00	5.50	18.95	20.00	17.00	4.00	115
Pyramidion	650	700	32.00	2.50	11.00	6.25	16.97	2.75	200
Galleon	800	1400	30.02	2.10	8.02	5.06	17.01	2.25	320
Spire	400	750	25.99	3.00	11.99	15.02	17.00	3.75	150
Mobula	600	700	28.00	4.25	14.02	3.5	17.01	7.5	120

(Credit to Thomas for the table)

[Milevan Faent]

While a description is great and all, a rough sketch or layout of some kind, based on the picture provided would do wonders, rather then a comparison of where certain objects are and where they lead. Also I would recommend you use the stats system provided by this table:

Ship Stats

Ship	Armor	Health	Speed (m/s)	Acceleration (m/s2)	Turn Speed (degrees/s)	Turn Accel. (degrees/s2)	Vertical Speed (m/s)	Vertical Accel. (m/s2)	Mass (tonnes)
Goldfish	400	1100	40.11	3.5	13.99	7.99	16.99	3.25	150
Junker	700	500	26.01	4.3	16.18	15.24	17.06	3.00	125
Squid	230	850	47.00	5.50	18.95	20.00	17.00	4.00	115
Pyramidion	650	700	32.00	2.50	11.00	6.25	16.97	2.75	200
Galleon	800	1400	30.02	2.10	8.02	5.06	17.01	2.25	320
Spire	400	750	25.99	3.00	11.99	15.02	17.00	3.75	150
Mobula	600	700	28.00	4.25	14.02	3.5	17.01	7.5	120

(Credit to Thomas for the table)

I lack any talent at art, so I certainly can't sketch out the layout myself. As for the stats using details, I don't know what they would be, or I would have. I typed up a rough estimate to give a generalized comparison for the moment because I don't know how good any particular trait would be myself. That kind of detail requires testing, or a lot more time than I have put into this so far. It also now requires a Mod, as I can't edit the OP and putting it in any other post just spreads out information, which causes problems later. I do intend to ask a friend of mine who IS an artist to take the picture and make a sketch, but that will be something that won't be done for a while yet, assuming she even says yes.

That said, I will attempt to work out some numbers. I won't ask a mod to put it up though until I have more to add than just some theory-crafted stats that are untested and potentially unbalanced.

[Piemanlives]

I'm not even familiar with the firepower stat, not something I pay attention to. However you don't need a mod to keep posting, this is an idea and we can build on it down the line, also I'm a stickler for diagrams for these sort of things so pay little attention to that, though it can certainly help in developing your design, essentially what you're suggesting however, is a mobula with closer to average (in relation to what however?) speed and acceleration, and you don't need to consistently edit the OP to edit the idea, if they read the thread they should see what has been discussed, if they don't just quote the relevant change and leave it at that.

[Milevan Faent]

I'm not even familiar with the firepower stat, not something I pay attention to. However you don't need a mod to keep posting, this is an idea and we can build on it down the line, also I'm a stickler for diagrams for these sort of things so pay little attention to that, though it can certainly help in developing your design, essentially what you're suggesting however, is a mobula with closer to average (in relation to what however?) speed and acceleration, and you don't need to consistently edit the OP to edit the idea, if they read the thread they should see what has been discussed, if they don't just quote the relevant change and leave it at that.

The stats are all seen every time a ship is edited. I just counted the number of pentagons each part of the graph touched. The outer pentagon is 5, and not even getting to the first pentagon is 1 (thus a Galleon has a Firepower of 5 for example, while a Junker has a firepower just short of 4). Even then, the numbers are just there to give a rough comparison to other ships, and have no real impact on anything.

As for not needing a mod to keep posting, this is true. But I never read an entire thread unless its short, and I don't expect too many others do either. Most people that I'm familiar with just read the OP, maybe glance over a few other posts, then post their own stuff. I hate having to read through an entire thread just for one piece of information, and on a similar note I'd hate to have to requote things 20 times just because people aren't reading everything and the info is hidden on page 2 of a 6 page discussion. I'd rather just keep all important info in the OP to avoid all the problems, which is why I hate that I can't just edit my posts. This is the only forum I visit that even has this problem.

[Milevan Faent]

So, this is a placeholder, since I did spend the time to write up some example stats. I will have this post deleted and the information moved to the OP at a later time when I have more info to put in the OP. Also, I have NO ability to understand how the heck the Table thing works, so I'm not even going to try. If anyone who DOES understand that mass of confusion wants, feel free to add this to a completed version of the table posted up there^

Zenith

Armor 600
Health 800
Speed 30
Acceleration 4.5 (new second highest)
Turn Speed 14
Turn Accel 11
Vertical Speed 17.03 (new second highest)
Vertical Accel 2.95
Mass 130

[macmacnick]

Green = highest, Blue = 2nd highest. Red = lowest, Orange = 2nd lowest. Grey is in-between those.

[Milevan Faent]

Green = highest, Blue = 2nd highest. Red = lowest, Orange = 2nd lowest. Grey is in-between those.

I know that. I meant I don't get how the tags of the table function work.

[macmacnick]

Ah.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

@Pie: there is no way goldfish is that fast, becouse otherwise it would have no problem escaping Pyra, and ti does have problems escaping pyra (original Prya max Speed was listed as 30,5m/s and Goldfish 32m/s - witch is what the difirence in speed actual feels: negligable).

@Milevan: ship needs blind spont no matter how small (junker has the tiniest blind spot but it still has one).

[Milevan Faent]

@Pie: there is no way goldfish is that fast, becouse otherwise it would have no problem escaping Pyra, and ti does have problems escaping pyra (original Prya max Speed was listed as 30,5m/s and Goldfish 32m/s - witch is what the difirence in speed actual feels: negligable).

Looking at the stats in the game, the Goldfish has to be that fast. Pyra should have no chance of catching a Goldfish.... if it does, then something is wrong with the stats, or the pilot. Possibly a Kero on the Pyra could let it catch a Goldfish, but a Goldfish can do that too and completely leave a Pyra in the dust. That said, can you comment on the actual ship concept?

EDIT: and there is a blind spot, as I said in the OP: above and in front or below and behind. Even to the sides if you get close or the guns don't have good horizontal arcs, and even then it requires people to be on top and bottom deck at the same time to hit something to the sides, so really the sides are generally a blind spot too, but with situational setups that can help compensate for the complete lack of actual broadside weapons on the ship.

Also, while the ship has limited ability to fire directly forward or behind, as it favors attacking from below or above (often at an angle, but still above or below).

[Mattilald Anguisad]

Pyra has no problem keeping up with Goldfsh - Goldfish could eventualy escape, but generaly you don't want to turn your cak on prya's front unless you are a squid. It takes way longer than the stated speed difirence indicates for goldfish to get out of Pyra's gat range.

You seem to have started writting before I edited my post.
Gun mounts at least thus far can't be angled upwards or downwards.
Ship also needs to have a blind spot (in horisontal arc anyway, there are allways going to be directly above and directly below.

[Milevan Faent]

Pyra has no problem keeping up with Goldfsh - Goldfish could eventualy escape, but generaly you don't want to turn your cak on prya's front unless you are a squid. It takes way longer than the stated speed difirence indicates for goldfish to get out of Pyra's gat range.

You seem to have started writting before I edited my post.
Gun mounts at least thus far can be angle upwards or downwards.
Ship also needs to have a blind spot (in horisontal arc anyway, there are allways going to be directly above and directly below.

Yeah, I started writing before you finished editing, then edited in a response to your edited in response XD

That said, with the setup of the guns, looking at all the weapons in the game, and taking into consideration the positions of the guns, Flare, Harpoon, Carronade, Gatling, Flamer, Artemis, Flak, and Banshee can cover anything that doesn't get too close. If you get your ship right next to the Zenith though, the guns can't possibly angle to hit it, aside from maybe the Flare, Artemis, and other really high horizontal arcing weapons, and even then only from top or bottom, never both. That's not really too big a threat when all the heavy-hitting weapons you might put on a Zenith can't possibly hit anything from the side. I generally consider the sides to both be more blind-spots than anything. Even among the weapons that could be used for their horizontal arc, you also need to consider if their vertical arc is enough to be able to get them to aim at a ship on the same altitude as the Zenith. Most weapons will have a problem there too.

That said, you seem to be misunderstanding something. All the weapons on the ship are naturally angled up or down, thus giving the ship a natural advantage for vertical combat, but a disadvantage at horizontal combat. That changes how the blindspots work as well. Weapons like the Hades that have good vertical arcs in both directions are really good since they can angle for attacks pretty much anywhere, but they have limited horizontal arcs, limiting them to firing in a rather narrow cone horizontally speaking. They will never fire sideways enough to cover that blind-spot. An Artemis could fire far enough to the side to cover it a bit, especially if the target isn't right next to the ship, but if it's on the lower deck, it's not going to aim high enough to really hit anything to the side, and aiming down from the top deckit can only get things just a bit below level with the ship itself. Conversely, that same Artemis on the bottom of the ship can actually pummel anything that gets below it relatively easily, far easier than a normal Artemis. This makes the blindspot dependant on the weapon setup, but generally there is no way to cover every side of the ship.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

I seem to have made an important typo in previous post. Gun mounts can't be turned to fire more up or down, as far as I understand the system. I might be wrong or it may change, but keep it in mind. Itf it can be do so it might be cool.
Can you try to make a layout - a very simplistic one if you have to? It would help understandin where important components (like hull armor, baloon, engines, guns) are.

[Milevan Faent]

I seem to have made an important typo in previous post. Gun mounts can't be turned to fire more up or down, as far as I understand the system. I might be wrong or it may change, but keep it in mind. Itf it can be do so it might be cool.
Can you try to make a layout - a very simplistic one if you have to? It would help understandin where important components (like hull armor, baloon, engines, guns) are.

I've been working on finding someone who can draw my concept, but no luck so far. And a major part of my concept is intentionally changing the gun mounts to actually be angled up or down (depending on which deck they're on). It doesn't actually make a gun fire with a bigger arc than normal, it just changes the default angle of the gun. For instance, an Artemis on the upper deck right gun from the wheel can (treating level with the deck as 0 degrees) fire between 40 degrees up, and 5 degrees down. Since the gun is also at 30 degrees to one side, it can aim out to 95 degrees right (treating 0 degrees as straight behind the ship) and 35 degrees left, which is enough to fire straight to the side, but not toward the front of the ship at all. Looking at these numbers, the gun's arc is the same, it just covers a different area than it normally would (which is noramlly mostly below the ship, and with a wide arc to cover front, side, or back, depending on where the gun is mounted. This covers more diagonally back and up than anything.

Nothing really prevents Muse from making a ship that is like this, and I think the concept is interesting enough that I wanted to share it, which is why I made the Zenith.