Let's talk gun damage/balance

[CallMeCoop]

I find this to be a really touchy subject personally, mainly from the point that with the wide variety in damage, fire rate, reload time, range it can be a touchy subject. Also if anyone had access to shots/sec I would much appreciate those numbers. Lastly we will mostly be using other guns as base examples of seeing why a gun is truly weak or unsatisfying

List of guns with underwhelming damage:
Echidna Light Flak Cannon
Banshee Light Rocket Carousel

list of guns with overwhelming damage:
Artemis Light Rocket Launcher
Hades Light Cannon

I would love to hear your guy's input on these guns
You may notice most of these guns are ranged: more guns to be added at a later date! (Maybe idk, Love you)

Some basics:
A quick note about arming time from my understanding
-when a shot is not armed it only deals the direct damage of the gun
-when it is armed it deals the aoe damage the gun has to offer

damage:
-all guns deal damage twice so long as it's armed (the exception being the flame tongue)
-the first type of damage is direct damage
-the second type is aoe, it hits everything around where your shot landed
-all guns have different aoe sizes
-some guns have 0 aoe meaning both damage types is applied to where you hit

Damage Matrix:
effects the amount of damage your gun deals to certain ship parts
-exp: explosive damage is effective against hulls, but not hull armor, engines/guns and balloon



Let's talk about the light flak first:
This is gun with only explosive damage is meant to be the end of someone's ship. With only 6 shots and generally rapid fire you better make them count!
Cons:
-arming time
-range
-clip size/damage

Pros:
-rapid fire
-good arc
-made my cry when an ally had nothing but them on his squid

the sand reality this gun even if arming time was removed from it. It would still be weak
Provided all the shots are direct shots to the hull with standard amo types
the total damage of the gun to the hull before reloading is 450 damage with 6 shots at 875 range
compared to the Artemis which has over 50% more range deals 440 damage to hulls in 4 shots
While the Artemis has a slower fire rate it's effectiveness against the hull sadly beats the flak



Next Gun the banshee:
This gun is meant to harass you opponent by setting fires. When the chance comes it gets to freely chip down the hull. Followed by rinse and repeat. pew pew FIRE!
 
Cons:
-damage/clip size

Pros:
-firing speed
-good arc
-has a fire chance 26 percentish causing 2 stacks of fire

This gun is no where near as bad as the flak and can still be used specially in the ranged harass area, but with only 2 stacks you may need more then one to make effective use of the harass or something else that causes fires. This gun is still a little outclassed by the artemis. Artemis has something over a 10% range advantage on banshee. While the banshee has only 8 more damage on hull (assuming all shots from one clip with regular rounds) while the Artemis has shatter damage to go with it. It's hard to say whether Artemis is strong or banshee is weak, or maybe both...



HUGE damage time
Artemis rocket launcher:
the ultimate harass weapon two or three shots will kill and engine or gun and a precise shot kinda makes it hard to keep said thing up again. and when the hull starts to go it will begin to chip away on that as well. disable then kill i guess

Pros:
-awesome range
-two damage types and plenty of damage from each type
-no arming time
-easy to fire (not as much with the latest patch but still easy)
-awesome arc

cons:
-firing rate is decent at best

Man huge advantage in its range and damage. It outclasses many things even though they maybe closer range. 3 shots deal somewhere around one merc's shatter damage. while the base explosive damage slowly takes the hull out if it goes down.



One last gun for Now
Hades:
with a big arc and fire damage this gun melts though armor, balloons and hull. Master the arc and the arming time and your gonna be hurting, burning and melting a lot of things

Pros:
-fire damage
-two damage types
-big range
-good firing rate
-good reloading time
-decent arc
-did i say damage?

Cons:
-arc
-arming time

This gun is amazing. the Damage it deals is just crazy at its range which is a little more then the Artemis. to put it in perspective assuming normal rounds and direct hits to the hull it has a little under 80% damage of the Gatling at over three times the range and still causes fires. It's still effective against the hull even to the point to where, if the gun doesn't have arming time its still doing good damage. The bonus damage to balloons is enough to keep people from being able to rebuild the balloon if it goes down.


Any changes you guys would like to see any guns or any gun you want an overview of? I personally would like to see more damage on the light flak and more fire stacks with small% change on the banshee. While the artemis be good at one of Two damages not great at both and I can't even think for the hades maybe less range...

[Captain Smollett]

You should join the dev app.

Not only will you be able to test builds before they launch there is a ton of balance conversation happening with the devs on a daily basis.

Contact keyvias@musegames.com for access to the dev app and forum.

Most of the weapons you've brought up are frequently discussed and are actively being looked at by awkm.

[RearAdmiralZill]

I will say that I don't think the banshee needs any buffing. You trade sheer damage for the fire potential, the arcs it provides makes it very useful on awkward gun arcs, and the traverse speed makes it good for all ranges. It's previous form was spammed for awhile as it shot too fast and was just better at pumping out damage vs guns like the artemis. Just because something does more raw damage doesn't make it naturally better.

[Alistair MacBain]

While i think that Hades and LFlak need to be adjusted i totally dislike the idea to compare such different guns with each other.
Those guns all fit a different role so you cant compare them to each other.

The Light Flak sure needs some buffing but that is something the devs are currently looking at and will be or is (not sure bout that) in the dev app.
The Hades could probably need a slight nerf. The Hades is meant to be a midrange armor piercing weapon which adds the distraction effect from the fire stacks instead of the brutal armor instakill the  gat does.
The gat is the closerange weapon for armor piercing and is in a great spot. But the Hades outperforms its longrange alternative the mercury atm. With lesmok it still does a quite similiar if not better (havent done the math bout that) armorpierce the merc can do. But it outranges the merc when lesmok is loaded which just isnt a good ammo for a merc.

But the other 2 guns are in a decent spot atm.
THe Artemis just got nerfed and is a mid/longrange shatter weapon which is meant to disable the enemy. Additionally it deals a bid of explosive damage so it can do ok damage gainst permahull once another gun stripped the armor.
But it is not able to be a quick finishing blow like a flak. Even with the current spot of the flak. I like the current spot of the artemis. It is a nice to have weapon but nothing i would mass out atm. It adds longrange disable to the roster of sniping weapons.
The banshee is a pretty unique gun. It is meant to distract the enemy by just putting multiple stacks of fire on the enemy. Addionally it can do quite decent dmg to the permahull. It is meant to fire constantly do do as much distaction as possible.
With its really low reload time it can do this. Spam the shots in and still get shots in while the enemy armor is down.
If it really needs a buff than just a slight one. But i kinda like it atm.
The carronade banshee setup is something to really annoy an enemy and still do decent damage to the enemy permahull.

[Frogger]

But the Hades outperforms its longrange alternative the mercury atm.

It takes a damn good gunner for a Hades to outperform a merc above 1000m.

[Alistair MacBain]

1000 isnt to hard but true. Thats something i dont took into account.
At 1500+ it gets pretty hard. Same for the current artemis.
At a ranges of 1000m + it gets quite hard to actually snipe any component thats not a medium gun on a moving target.

[CallMeCoop]

You trade sheer damage for the fire potential

A point I hoped someone would bring up, and while it's very true I find the fire stacks can harass, i feel it needs a shift in % chance and fire stacks given

You should join the dev app.

I'll check it out and thanks for the address of who to contact!

THe Artemis just got nerfed

I think you should be more on this topic as it's more hazardous to continuously nerf something when it just received one and atm the only nerf i'd see on it is the explosive damage unless (maybe), my bringing it up is that it is that not many weapons are like or are better subs to it except the mercury and H'watcha, however both of those have major downturns to there positives

[Crafeksterty]

The way the discussion goes in the dev app for the Light flak is incredibly frightening.

It does not do underwhelming damage, it isnt bad to use. Use it to its extent and it can do wonders. The only thing i suggested are very minor changes, like an extra shot, or tinsy bit quicker firing rate, or 5+ more damage. Because it really is not underbalanced at all.

The mortar can kill in one clip, but it requiers close range.
The light flak almost kills in one clip. Requiers a bit of range.
Artemis cannot kill in one clip, cus its too slow before the armor comes back up. No range requierment.

Im really afraid that when the light flak gets a significant buff, its going to trumped the mortar once again.
Well i hope its not true.

[Twinkie D-Lite]

I notice the heavy flak is still absent from these discussions. Thats a shame, as heavy guns should be the most powerful weapons on the battlefield. The other three heavy's are quite effective. Wish they would fix this stuff so I could play again.

Anytime a light weapon is more effective at long range than a heavy gun designed for the same type of engagement, something is wrong.

[redria]

I notice the heavy flak is still absent from these discussions. Thats a shame, as heavy guns should be the most powerful weapons on thebattlefield. The other three heavy's are quite effective. Wish they would fix this stuff so I could play again.

Really? Heavy flak is the only heavy weapon I really regularly fear. Any decent teamwork from the enemy and armor-breaks are punished with almost instant death. Every time I lose armor going against a galleon carrying heavy flak I go for a quick motion change and , along with my crew, hold my breath and wait expecting death.

[Twinkie D-Lite]

Heavy flak is garbage. Unlike other heavy guns it requires something to help it out to break down the armor. The other three heavy weapons are self supportive, they require no back up to do their job. Unless they have done a complete overhaul since I left in disgust.

[redria]

Heavy flak is garbage. Unlike other heavy guns it requires something to help it out to break down the armor. The other three heavy weapons are self supportive, they require no back up to do their job. Unless they have done a complete overhaul since I left in disgust.

I'm sorry that you think that heavy weapons should be able to do it all?
Heavy Carronade - Can shred the balloon and components, but only at close range, and doesn't do very well against the hull (at all) - needs finishing support.
Lumberjack - Shreds balloons and can destroy armor if the gunner lands a full clip consistently, can't finish, has an arming time and is weak at close range - needs finishing support.
Hwacha - Can disable components and deal good hull damage, but has trouble breaking hull armor - needs armor break support.
Heavy Flak - Can kill consistently at range in under a second, but can't break armor - needs armor break support.

I'm not sure where your self-sufficient weapons are. Besides, no weapon should be self sufficient. This game isn't a shoot-em-up. It is strategy and gun arcs and creating intelligent builds that combine weapons to deal the exact combination of damage that you want to deal.

This game is pretty distinctive in having damage types that will be strong against one part of a ship but not against another. This distinction means no one weapon can be good at everything, otherwise you have just defeated the purpose of a pretty key feature of the game.

I'm sorry you are disgusted with this, but it is pretty self evident that the devs have designed this so that you need to combine weapons in order to be effective. Frankly I'm surprised that you put in the time to get your levels only to be upset by something like this.

-edit-
Apologies if this has gotten slightly off topic.

[Alistair MacBain]

I dont understand what i was trying to say CallMeCoop.
I like the place the artemis is right now and its balanced in my opinion.
Yes it was to strong before but now its in a good spot and it doesnt need adjustment.
I just have a different opinion on those things.
The Artemis is good but not as good as a light flak at straight out killing a enemy.
Yes the flak needs a buff but that doesnt mean the artemis needs another nerf in reverse.

I agree with Crafeksterty on that point. A slight buff on the light flak and everything is fine. A flak hades can be devastating at killing an enemy at medium range.

I also agree that the heavy flak is good as it is.
It can pretty much instakill nearly every ship once the hull armor is down.
Its the longrange alternative for the mortar/light flak. It deals a ton of damage when you get a shot on the permahull.
I dont see any light weapon doing a similiar thing at that range. Maybe a slight range buff would be good. Cause without lesmok you just get about 1400m (if im not mistaken). And lesmok isnt really an option due to the damage nerf and the only 1 shot.

I think the banshee has a decent % chance on putting on fires. And it actually applies 2 stacks of fire when the fire stacks apply.

[Thomas]

I'd say that the Dev App is a great place for these kind of suggestions. Right now the light flak is being looked at, and last patch the artemis was being adjusted.

Light Flak - Personally I think it's fairly ok, despite the poor arming time and limited range compared to similar guns. It often gets overlooked because the guns it can pair with often do better paired with something else. The hades/artemis have a better range than a hades/flak, where gat/mortar has more damage potential and can do well up close; where the gat flak has to stay at a very specific range  (too far and the gat can't hit, too close and the flak doesn't arm)

However, it is being looked at currently.


Banshee- This has always been one of my least used guns. It's not bad, it's just not my style. It has a long range and good arcs, but relies more on starting fires than raw damage. I've used it effectively and seen it used effectively, it's just not as mainstream as other pure explosive weapons.




artemis- This was recently nerfed a little in terms of turning speed and shell velocity. It's still a powerful gun, but is harder to use on moving targets due to the turning speed and slower shell. You have to lead them more and it's a little more difficult to hit the components. Although a good gunner can use it just as effectively. Overall it's pretty powerful at disabling, and can even be used as a finisher. I believe it also can start some fires, which can add to armor removal (not sure what the fire % is )


Hades - To me this gun is alarmingly powerful. It's great against most aspects of the ship, and has a high chance of starting fires. The arming time isn't all that long, and it covers a large range. It is fairly difficult to hit with, but again, with a good gunner it's incredibly powerful. It's one of the guns that can be used by itself (or used with another hades) to extreme effect, since it can break the armor and destroy the hull; along with the balloon and all the fire it causes.



Heavy flak- The heavy flak is actually quite powerful. Ideally you want to pair it with something to break the armor, otherwise you're not doing much. It does have a pretty good chance to start a fire, which combined with the raw damage and the engineer cooldowns can actually take down the armor (although slowly).

The other heavy guns also need to be paired. The carronade and lumberjack can generally be used solo, but then they often use the terrain for that extra damage, and rely on keeping the enemy in a position where they can't counterattack. It's far from a fast kill.

The hwacha is in the same boat as the flak, although it relies more on disabling. By itself, and with it's long reload, it's hard for it to actually break the armor and then damage the hull. It usually relies on keeping the enemy busy putting out the fires and rebuilding all the other components, and hoping they neglect the hull long enough. Overall it's another slow kill by itself.

[Twinkie D-Lite]

Heavy Carronade 1 shot any piece of equipment, 2 shot a balloon, no support weapon needed
Manticore one volly disable entire ship, no support weapon needed
Lumberjack 2 shot a balloon, no suport weapon needed
Heavy Flak, you tell me how many shots it need to do its job with no support weapon.

And dont get me going on weapon ranges, they need a massive overhaul, there way out of whack.

With over 1,800 hours played on this game I believe I have an informed opinion.