The buff hammer, and guns.

[Crafeksterty]

This is not at all an unbalanced act.  Some ammos make the gun below avrage, but when buffed are above avrage. This makes a good cooperation with engies and Gunners. Specialy on a heavy weapon.

But regarding gunengineers, then you are making a stiff build where your engineer has to have a buff hammer to be good on his gun.

The % dmg you are talking about mostly or only affects heatsink or Greased. Build your crew acordingly, then you have a build built for that specific aspect.
Usually, when i play public, i just tell my guys to be on a gattling. But with my main crew i tell them specifications that further enhances our build.

There is nothing wrong with this.

The % dmg also helps with the mercury, the mercury cant do good dps alone, it has to be with another mercury, but slap heatsink or Charged with buff then you get a more viable mercury gun. But you must know this is highly specific. The engineer has to have both the ammo and the buff hammer with the added action of having to buff and or repair. With either a pipe wrench, or a sacrificed extinguisher for the spanner and mallet.

This is a rarity but if you have an Engineer running around with a pipe wrench, extinguisher and a chemical spray, you are pretty much inmune to fire stacks. But you take away a great ability to repair with mallet or spanner. etc etc.


Some ships make a gun engineer very possible while some ships make it difficult.

[RearAdmiralZill]

@Frogger

1. Any gun that is destroyed is not doing much of anything, so what I read is "You need a disabler to fight buffed guns." That's an even worse notion to think about, though I disregard it as the point of this is a buffed gun is too good right now. 20% damage is just too large and should be scaled back to a useful yet balanced number. What that % is I'll leave to Awkm to test.

2. You can stop using numbers with me because I never use them. There are too many variables for you to toss gatling statistics at me to prove a point. Sorry and no offence, but I know when something is buffed or not based on the feel of it. It's too high when it's working.

3. This isn't about skill. The guns were put where they are in terms of balance for a reason, as were the current ammo choices. A buff hammer simply gives it 20% damage for very little cost, and in some cases breaks the very balance that was put in place. While sure, buffing needs to have that kind of reward for the added attention and timing, on guns it is too great a reward.

4. Again, the reward is too great on guns when it works. Sure buffing has its drawbacks, and tactics can be used to mitigate it, but so far the only one you've given me is disable. I shouldn't have to use one tactic alone to hope to beat a buffed weapon set.

5. Buffing is not that hard. Sorry but no. I make pugs do it all the time. Focus them on certain parts, they will get used to the timing. I've also never had more than 1 buff hammer on my boat, but I can only imagine two being even easier.


I'm not saying that any buffed gun is too powerful. However over the course of, well ever since the whole buffer vs gunner debate flared up, it was always a thought that maybe buffing was just a little too easy or gave too much reward for little risk. Buffing still needs to work on all things on a boat. Currently, some guns just benefit too much from 20% buff to damage.

Changing the buff mechanic entirely for guns is a big change and one im not fully supportive of. A lesser % damage buff is where i'd like to see it go. Enough to be useful and rewarding, but not damaging to balance for any gun nor borderline requiring buffed guns to win a game.

[Crafeksterty]

Do people really think buffed guns are required to win better?

Oh boy. If anything, the requiered ammount of hits on a gun to buff it  can be increased.


20% is not big, it neglects drawbacks from ammo types regarding damage, and works well with guns of high damage allready... 10 or 15% is still going to wreck.  15% imo wont change anything, 10% may change a little but not enough to not be wrecked by it.

[Sammy B. T.]

Ducks have always been engi heavy and sacrificing gunners makes buffs a bit necessary. However, you don't need to copy the Ducks to win.

[RearAdmiralZill]

I never said it was required. I've killed too many all-engie teams to say that was the case at all.

I really do think that slight % change would change enough. Think of the heavy carronade getting 50m extra range. That proved to be a much larger change then anyone expected.

20% is not big, it neglects drawbacks from ammo types regarding damage, and works well with guns of high damage allready... 10 or 15% is still going to wreck.  15% imo wont change anything, 10% may change a little but not enough to not be wrecked by it.

And that's my point. It should never completely negate it or do so to a point that for x seconds (8 is it for gun buffs?) you get an unbalanced gun by hitting it once with a magic hammer.

[Sammy B. T.]

I don't undestand why it going down twenty for greased and being brought back up by twenty with the buffed is the issue. A buffed greased will still be twenty less than a buffed normal shot.

[N-Sunderland]

My concern is less about how buffs negate drawbacks, and more about how it takes the place of some ammo types (trying my hardest not to turn this into a gunner debate, but I need to put it out there). Charged loses out on a lot of guns because of this, seeing as it's pretty much a bad buff (except with guns like merc, heavy flak...). Seriously, has anybody else noticed how niche charged is right now?

And that's my point. It should never completely negate it or do so to a point that for x seconds (8 is it for gun buffs?)

Gun buffs last 20 seconds

[GeoRmr]

Looking at your ranks there GeoRrm, and I think your point of view may be a bit biased. Anyhow, yes I did forget about the few guns (essentially anything with an arming time) that require more then one ammo type. So lets looks at a Lumberfish with a buff engineer. Basic set up, of course, is a main engineer, a buff engineer, and a gunner for the main gun. If positioned correctly, the fish can stay out of combat and keep the front gun buffed 24/7, and with a good gunner, taking out balloons with only two shots instead of the normal 3. This makes it harder to not get sunk due to the fact the gunner only needs to land two shots instead three. With a good pilot and gunner, one fish can easily rotate shots between enemy ships, with lesmok rounds, and keep them both disabled for their ally to clean up. (Yes there are tactics to counter this, I know, this is just an example so don't bring them up). And not all players are tactical masters FYI, so keep in mind the battle between the people who know how to use that buff effectively and not. I can see a lot of captains getting frustrated because their guns are just not outputting damage like the enemy is because they don't have a buff engi that is skilled with keeping everything buffed.

Basically, buffed weapons make it harder for other teams to make a comeback after they get hit with a buffed gun. Are gunners useful, absolutely, especially with new ammo and reload systems coming in. However, the fact remains that 20% damage increase is basically the same as adding charged rounds with the current rounds you have on your gun with no drawbacks.

Nono, there is a huge drawback, your engineer is now terribly inefficent at repairing. In your lumberfish example this is even more damaging as when they get close you can't put back fire power either.

[GeoRmr]

My concern is less about how buffs negate drawbacks, and more about how it takes the place of some ammo types (trying my hardest not to turn this into a gunner debate, but I need to put it out there). Charged loses out on a lot of guns because of this, seeing as it's pretty much a bad buff (except with guns like merc, heavy flak...). Seriously, has anybody else noticed how niche charged is right now?

And that's my point. It should never completely negate it or do so to a point that for x seconds (8 is it for gun buffs?)

Gun buffs last 20 seconds

Most of the ammo types are niche, I don't particularly think so for charged rounds. Other than the heavy carronade the only reason I use incendiary rounds is to play arround with arming times, not even the main purpose of this amunition! To add to the list for usefullness of charged rounds give them a try in the heavy carronade, the light flack, and even the gattling (in situations where it's unbuffed like the brawl side of an artemis junker).