Author Topic: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE  (Read 233857 times)

Offline DMaximus

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #135 on: October 30, 2013, 10:55:10 am »
I think after a few minor tweaks this patch will be a good thing. I'm not sure what others have been seeing, but in most of the competitive matches I've played in the last patch or two it's been mainly close range ships. MM has recently been rolling with a gat/mortar pyra or junker and whatever Zill feels like taking. I think the stratification of weapon ranges might lead us back to some asymmetrical loadouts, which can be pretty fun.

That said, the gat and mortar nerfs does feel a tad bit excessive. Not end of the world excessive, mind you. In the games I played brawling was still viable and prevalent. The kill power of the mortar is acceptable, though I do miss having enough shots to help with armor breaking and being able to lob long range shots for fun and profit. I'll need to stop relying on lesmok so much, but I should have weaned myself off that a while back anyways. I wouldn't mind seeing a few more shots or a bit more range.

I've always thought the range on the gat was surprisingly long. It was nice since a knowledgeable gunner could start firing before the enemy (usually also a gat mortar of some kind) realized they were in range. It feels a bit too short to me now, but that's possibly just a case of needing time to adjust. The more ammo/less damage change was... interesting? I'll need to play a bit more to really tell, but it just felt a tad underwhelming. Maybe I need to adjust to and account for the slower stripping, but I'm worried that even at shorter ranges gat might be outclassed by hades.

These were just initial impressions. I may return once I've had more than two days to play around with the patch.

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #136 on: October 30, 2013, 11:10:29 am »
Recovering from disables aside (something monitoring very closely, rebuild modifiers will probably get revisited), there are a few things people are getting wrong here.

Every range is a valid one, that's the goal.  As others have mentioned, each have their own risk reward to them.  For example, long range weapons have fewer shots to compensate for the fact I am hitting you from across the map.  This coupled with the enemy engineer's ability to rebuild/repair during your reloads makes it hard for snipers to get the actual kill.  This is where teamwork can really help.

Another example is a brawler.  You have a lot of ammo but closing in should be difficult.  The enemy engineer's won't be able to repair/rebuild your DPS but it's an issue for you to get in range to be effective.  This is where teamwork can really help.  Not to sound like a broken record but brawling was previously extremely effective and therefore range skewed to close quarters—not ideal, a bell curve would be nicer.

Some changes, admittedly, are heavy-handed.  However, it's much easier to over shoot the line and inch back up to it rather than forever trying to find the line in the first place.  By hearing the voice of the community, I can find that line much more easily.  Except that this time around, a lot of people are taking it very personally.  Please remain calm, courteous, back up your findings with methodical examinations of the problem at hand.  Only then can I reproduce those cases and test them to find alternative solutions. 

I don't believe any one strategy has been negated at this point.  There are more now.  Is gat/mortar too difficult to pull off now?  Maybe.  Will other weapons shine?  Yeah, I hope so.  Will other weapons become OP?  I hope not, and I hope these changes collapse the decision space in another way.  Please have a conversation with me and work together.  Muse has our own design goals and what we know to be a good game.  You have your own ideas of what fun is.  They can work together.  We're willing to work with you but are you willing to work with us?

Finally, after all the drudgery, there have been a few suggestions here and there that I will consider and test.  Here are a list of things that I am testing.  There is no guarantee which ones will make it in.

- Increased piercing dmg on gatling (and therefore lower clip size to maintain dmg/clip ratio)
- Increased shatter dmg on gatling and perhaps carronade (giving close range weaponry some disabling on the distance close)
- Reduced chance of fire on Hades
- Increased arming time on Hades
- Faster rebuilds on guns and engines

and further in the future:

- New gunner skills that will further augment gun usage cases (think of it this way: each vanilla gun has its own particular area where it's most effective in.  Some ammo already push it outside of it's effective area.  New ammo will expand on this idea, perhaps push guns even further outside their intended use case)



And seriously, we don't have a QA team.  AAA QA teams are huge.  To be perfectly clear, you are our QA team.  This is why poop hits the fan so much because we don't have adequate testing. 

So... go apply for Dev App!

I DON'T LIKE POOP HITTING THE FAN IN PRODUCTION.

Offline The Churrosaur

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #137 on: October 30, 2013, 11:21:18 am »
I just read over this thread and holy hell, how are so many committed people getting so butthurt over a five point damage nerf. They're not discriminating against CQB. They're not discriminting againt the Wolfpack

god....

and AWKM I love you.

Offline Imagine

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #138 on: October 30, 2013, 11:26:46 am »
Except a gunner is now functionally mandatory for the Mortar
And the problem with this is....

Also, to everyone who is like WELL I'M OUT a day after a new patch...

really? I mean.... really?

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #139 on: October 30, 2013, 11:30:19 am »
The gunner is only mandatory for switch between close and longer ranges because he has more than 1 ammo skill to equip.

The community complained about gunners being useless... well, there you have it.  We listened to the community :)

Offline Asteria Bisset

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #140 on: October 30, 2013, 11:39:34 am »
[...]

- Increased shatter dmg on gatling and perhaps carronade (giving close range weaponry some disabling on the distance close)

[...]

- Faster rebuilds on guns and engines

Hmm... Interesting choices. If the Gat and Carronade did have more disabling ability it would help reward those who did get in up close with the ability to disarm the enemy ship so it would stop firing at them in close range and reward the brawler team with time to actually use up the large ammo clips they have.  It'd also give a reason for Long-range teams to play keep-away with a team that has a Gatling or Carronade (Carronade is already my worst nightmare since it glues me to a balloon... ;A;). Sounds fair on paper. Needs to be tested!

Offline geggis

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #141 on: October 30, 2013, 12:05:43 pm »
Except a gunner is now functionally mandatory for the Mortar
And the problem with this is....

Thank you Imagine, I'm glad somebody pulled this up.

Also, to everyone who is like WELL I'M OUT a day after a new patch...

really? I mean.... really?

I just read over this thread and holy hell, how are so many committed people getting so butthurt [...]

I know right? Anybody would think this was Muse's Final Patch before calling it a day.

Thanks for weighing in awkm and it's so good to hear you're trying to keep the 'decision space' as open as possible because, quite frankly, I get so tired of seeing the same safe builds over and over again. I'll always be glad to see more diversity and creativity, and viable diversity at that.

As I said in the pilot thread: while there are no direct pilot changes, pilots are going to have to dramatically alter the way they fly because of the range cuts. Gat/mortar pyra and blenderfish/pyra captains are going to have to think twice before simply charging an enemy down; brawlers are going to have to be a lot more creative and work even closer with their teammate(s) to approach enemy ships, and that can only be a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

I don't want to comment on the changes themselves just yet but I'm fully behind the reasons for them, even if the line is overshot now and then and some changes have to be dialled back -- you gotta break some eggs to make an omelette right? -- so keep up the good work awkm and co.

Offline The Churrosaur

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #142 on: October 30, 2013, 12:07:41 pm »
Also, to everyone who is like WELL I'M OUT a day after a new patch...

really? I mean.... really?

So much this Lol.

And I actually relish the fact that it actually takes skill to mortar now.

Offline The Churrosaur

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #143 on: October 30, 2013, 12:08:11 pm »
Ach. Ninjad but yep.

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #144 on: October 30, 2013, 12:09:49 pm »
Let's not try to pick fights here.

If Wolf decides to leave, that's their decision.  Although I recommend waiting for another week.  Same goes to everyone who decided to leave in the last three days.  Patch JUST got pushed.  There's always a hotfix based on initial reactions.

And again, you can get your voices heard earlier in Dev App.

DEV APP DEV APP!!! DOOO EEETTT.

Offline dragonmere

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #145 on: October 30, 2013, 12:24:59 pm »
awkm,

I might not always agree with your decisions, but I greatly appreciate the direct response to my rather long-winded questions.

Thank you.


To anyone who doesn't understand why COx/WOLF/Duck is so extremely upset; basically every patch that has come out (i've only been here since 1.1) has nerfed our prefered and practiced playstyle. It gets to the point where it's just incredibly frustrating having to tweak and relearn the same tactics over and over because they weren't 'balanced'. I'd much rather have to learn to counter NEW guns/ships/ways to play, still using my brawling setups.
If you're just picking guns and ships to 'have fun', or intentionally picking setups outside the 'meta', you're not going to mind any of the changes. Hell, they're great for you. But if you're legitimately trying to destroy the competition EVERY MATCH, and your preferred play-style has ALWAYS been close-range brawler, its hard not to take it personally, even if it isn't meant that way.

And, to echo awkm;

SIGN UP FOR DEVAPP. Lets have our heated discussions in the DEVAPP forums, where people who aren't as invested in this game won't be there to shoot non-contributing reaction memes at us, or take jabs at our overly passionate perspective. ;)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 12:28:10 pm by dragonmere »

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #146 on: October 30, 2013, 12:25:35 pm »
Skipping all the noise to give my initial feedback.

Carronades feel like they should. I didn't mess with the light one much but it seemed to do as it should be, so i'll revisit if it's underwhelming.

Mortar feels fine. I didn't bother with lesmok and was able to kill with it (shooting it is harder but that's the point).

Gat. With the current changes in place, I think the best way to give it a touch more bite is a RoF buff. Gives more dps, lets you empty that clip, and doesn't involve messing with damage so then maybe someone would consider charged ammo vs just buffing it's damage. Other then that, I like it. Feels good.

Hades. Didn't mess with it much. Got shot with it though, and it surely like to let you know it's there. Didn't think it needed any buffs before, besides maybe the easier shooting.

To go on to Awkm's post:

Quote
- Increased piercing dmg on gatling (and therefore lower clip size to maintain dmg/clip ratio)
- Increased shatter dmg on gatling and perhaps carronade (giving close range weaponry some disabling on the distance close)
- Reduced chance of fire on Hades
- Increased arming time on Hades
- Faster rebuilds on guns and engines

-Try RoF before damage changes. Gat screams dps gun so give it the RoF to do it well.
-Maybe. I hope you only mean the light carro as the heavy already does enough.
-Sounds ok given its current state.
-Eh id rather see less fire chance vs more arming.
-An aspect of a disable fight is once you do get hit, you have to pick what to rebuild. I hope you mean a very slim cut in rebuild times else you will stamp out any indirect disable buffs that were added.

Offline Surette

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #147 on: October 30, 2013, 12:41:10 pm »
Wait, are there actually teams that are leaving because they don't like a particular patch, like, one day after it was released? Oh, that's priceless.

Also, I'm really happy that a gunner is functionally required for a mortar. Don't see any negatives here.

Offline NoWuffo

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #148 on: October 30, 2013, 01:23:24 pm »
Just to clarify and defend Sammy's comment here real quick, since everyone now seems quick to jump down his throat about his comment:
Except a gunner is now functionally mandatory for the Mortar

This was a follow up to the preceding comment by Spud Nick, talking about the possibility of having a gunner on a gat:
I can see gunners being more useful on gatling guns now. Because of the damage nerf and how important it is to strip armor, having two other ammo types could give you the advantage.

Sammy was trying to say it'd be difficult to see a gunner on a gat when you essentially need a gunner on the mortar instead. The point was it would imply having two gunners, and I don't care how many nerfs or buffs happen, I doubt we'll ever see a day where one engi is sufficient on a ship, especially a brawler pyra! No one's saying a gunner on a mortar is a bad thing, it's exactly what awkm was striving for to make gunners have their place on even a brawler ship. We all accept this and appreciate this, if you read the comment in context you'd see he was saying you can't afford a gunner on a gat when there's already a gunner on a mortar.

C'mon, guys. Lets not be so quick to jump down each other's throats. Stop getting personal. Don't berate another squad for deciding to leave, it's their choice, Dragonmere pretty much summed up their whole reasoning. No need to mock them because of it, that's just low class.

And yes Sammy. Fowl! Glad someone caught it :P

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #149 on: October 30, 2013, 01:29:15 pm »
Except a gunner is now functionally mandatory for the Mortar
And the problem with this is....

Because in the context of what I was replying to they were saying a gunner is now mandatory for the gatling as well. As the game stands, two gunner necessary combos will not work. I would elaborate but you can read the post above mine.

To Awkm, IMO I would say buff the DPS of the Gatling for the best fix so either that ROF or damage. I would encourage though to keep it piercing. Specializing the gun as a hull destroyer as opposed to a partial hull destroyer and disabler weapon, helps keep the gun viable but also niche as not all would want that. Leave heavy clip carronades as the close range disable.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:35:30 pm by Sammy B. T. »