1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE

[Nidh]

I don't see how attacking my knowledge of the competitive scene gets us anywhere. Don't forget that I too have flown competitively and have faced the bet of the best in sniping as well. Flew against Squash just yesterday as a matter of fact.

Not to put you on the spot Squash, but you're by far the best in Galleon sniping that I know of and the best I could think of to be an example.

[Subarco]

 If the complaint is that too many close range builds use gat/morter, then why hasn't the answer been to give them somthing else that works instead of taking away the few things that do?

Get out of my head already!

 The answer is not to nerf the weapons that work well, the answer is buffing up the useless weapons so they can come into play. You saw this when they first buffed the art a few months back. We in The Cohort had a week worth of fun with the Art, then it was overly nerfed. It was fun, and made us try new builds that worked well, but after the nerf, it was back to the Gat/flak.

You're spot on Garou.

This is a good alternative, but one problem I see is that buffing all the other weapons is much harder to balance for than to simply nerf a couple of weapons. Perhaps the solution is a bit of both?

[awkm]

Play some matches.  Stop the dissing.  Stop the speculating.

When issues like this come up every time the patch is just released, I make it a point to always use the combination that's most heatedly discussed.  This round it's gat/mortar nefs and hades/flak buff.  Gat/mortar is still effective.  It'll require some additional coordination with gunners since their ammo is very beneficial now, but that's also why the change was made.  Was still getting some good kills and approaches with gat/mortar Pyramidion.

Then playing the intended buffed build Hades and Light Flak, on a Junker no less, it was still relatively difficult as gat/mortar Pyramidions were still able to close on me even though I also had an Artemis on the front for disable.  Furthermore, was getting disabled constantly by a blenderfish.

Play some matches and talk about your experience.  Not about what you think your experiences will be.

[Serenum]

@ Mad Maverik & Garou
Congratulation for showing to the world your elitist bs point of view and going into a personal attack against a whole clan.
By the way, Garou, I'm pretty sure I've whooped your ass in pubs more then once. But I guess you hadn't your try-hard pants on. And I know how important they are to "pros" like you in order to accomplish something. 

It's incredibly sad how involving yourselves in a couple of events and sucking the fun out of the game make you think that you have any authority or expertise in this game. The truth is that you don't know anything more then the average experienced player, you just EXPLOIT more, and once you find the "optimal" way to play you get stuck in it like it was quicksand.

[awkm]

If someone throws a comeback or disses someone else, I am locking this thread.

[-Mad Maverick-]

Play some matches.  Stop the dissing.  Stop the speculating.

When issues like this come up every time the patch is just released, I make it a point to always use the combination that's most heatedly discussed.  This round it's gat/mortar nefs and hades/flak buff.  Gat/mortar is still effective.  It'll require some additional coordination with gunners since their ammo is very beneficial now, but that's also why the change was made.  Was still getting some good kills and approaches with gat/mortar Pyramidion.

Then playing the intended buffed build Hades and Light Flak, on a Junker no less, it was still relatively difficult as gat/mortar Pyramidions were still able to close on me even though I also had an Artemis on the front for disable.  Furthermore, was getting disabled constantly by a blenderfish.

Play some matches and talk about your experience.  Not about what you think your experiences will be.

awkm its been 24hours! i dont think you understand how many matches we fit in 24hours :-).  we ARE speaking from experience.  we set up higher level matches to test things, cmon man we know what we're doing. 

one suggestion, when something is working well that means you have made a good synergy of guns, you should then build off that success and create ANOTHER set of weapons that work.  breaking what works is not the answer you silly billy.

but i digress i wont be playing GOI for awhile i hate to say this but in spite of all the 4 packs i have purchased over this past year and a half i have finally accepted that my play style is not the way the devs intend the game to be played.  i think that the way nidh is thinking and plays is what the devs are looking for which is cool, i love the way nidh flies, just isnt for me. i know most of you dont care but i just want to let anyone who did care know that they can find me on BF4 flying jets and helicopters under the SN theDMVchamp.

oh and i want to reiterate, the best devs in the business are found here on GOI, love you guys!

[Mr. Ace Rimmer]

I don't see how attacking my knowledge of the competitive scene gets us anywhere. Don't forget that I too have flown competitively and have faced the bet of the best in sniping as well. Flew against Squash just yesterday as a matter of fact.

Not to put you on the spot Squash, but you're by far the best in Galleon sniping that I know of and the best I could think of to be an example.

Squash's Galleon come down to the perfect storm of things. A good knowledge of how the weapons work, a good knowledge of how the ship works and the crew having an excellent knowledge of how to get the best out of it it. Good communication between all four crew is also a massive part of why it works so well.

I'm pretty sure that it can be beaten. Cake/Overwatch have won a few games against Squash's Galleon, we need practice to fine tune how and why we beat them when we do.

Now, about the patch. From my perspective having played about 15 to 20 games now is the following:

Gat Mortar/Carronade Mortar (Brawling) has now been made a fine art form of high risk, high reward. *If* you can get close enough to your opponents *and* have the skill to out fly them, you will reap the rewards. If they disable you just as you get in, you are in trouble.

Disabling now seems much more viable owing to the hit box changes and brings back an aspect I missed. It again carries risks, especially at range but when utilized properly can be absolutly devastating.

As to sniping. It is what it is. I strongly dislike it but that's more from a boredom point of view rather than wah wah wah I can't counter it. (that is not aimed at anybody by the way!)  I will say, it now carries the high risk high reward tab as well now since if you miss those shots and those brawlers or disablers get in range, it's more than likely going to be good night Vienna.

I like that new patch, and perhaps it could do with a few tweaks here and there but for the most part I can see what Muse are trying to do.

[Garou]

[...]

I'm not going to dignify this with a response. Feel free to message me privately if you want to hash this out further.

[Garou]

Play some matches and talk about your experience.  Not about what you think your experiences will be.

I'll admit that some of what I'm saying is speculation, clearly I haven't had the opportunity to play in a competition since the patch went live, however I have played some matches and my concerns about the gat in particular stem from that.

That said, I will be taking your advice, and in all fairness, it's a valid request. I'll give it a week and give everything a chance, and come back to comment then.

-Edit-
I'd also like to reiterate that despite the heated nature of the conversation at hand, I really do have a lot of respect for the Muse team. I feel you guys are far more involved than most game developers, and it's very seldom you'll see a dev actually join in a conversation on the boards to discuss these sorts of things with the community. It's a big part of why even if I find I hate the changes, I'll probably still play regardless xD

[RearAdmiralZill]

A friendly reminder from my Mod side that we keep things civil here guys.

[Echoez]

Well since your gun would otherwise be sitting there looking pretty since no other ammo will let you shoot past its maximum range, yea, it's remotely useful. That said, I'm hopeful you know that no one is going to sit at that lesmok range and try to kill something. If so, well you have other issues.

I'm pretty sure nobody would sit at Lesmok range poking at the enemy, the fact is though, that all Lesmok will do is poke the enemy and probably just give away your position. Which is why I said, it's pretty useless, opinion though.

Might want to think about taking that breath before posting like I suggested. Do not put words in my postings. Yes, it'll require more thought into your approach. No, it was never a 100% sure thing to just charge in and win previously. Doesn't mean it didn't happen either.

All I was implying is that there was no need to complicate it further, I was not trying to put words into your post. If charging straight on a sniper build is netting you kills then what is the enemy doing? If they are not landing their shots, well, I'm pretty sure you deserve to just charge them straight forward, no? It's never been easy and if you charge straight forward you are just gambling on whether the enemy gunners are competent, but that's for an other topic I guess..

Beyond that, I have nothing good to say about your post so I'll just leave it. It does nothing to help anybody except let you vent.

After what feels like the millionth nerf to brawling guns and especially after an update that was one of the most balanced to have in the game with all guns working properly, I honestly think I have every right to be frustrated by the changes, that said, I honestly don't mind it over all, I just don't like the direction it's headed and deem the changes unecessary at best, but again you could argue it's just opinion, you would be right.

I honestly doubt brawling is dead, and only different.

It's not, it's just not nearly as rewarding as it was, definately needs tweaks on guns like the Gatling and the Carronades that got their ranges cut and got nothing in return, their damage was lowered as well for apparently no reason, I don't see why.

Fine, range was a problem I guess for you (as in the people that were butthurt about the carronades/gat)? Where's the power-up that they get for being even more restricted in range than they were in 1.3.1? Where is my old 4 second reload on the Heavy Carronade? Why cut the damage of the Light carronade? Why did the Gat get no compesations for the damage and range cut other than larger clip that takes forever to unload?

[Sammy B. T.]

Gat Mortar/Carronade Mortar (Brawling) has now been made a fine art form of high risk, high reward. *If* you can get close enough to your opponents *and* have the skill to out fly them, you will reap the rewards.

The thing is with the new DPS changes to the Gatling (its direct damage went down 25% with a clip increase of 20%) as well as the obliteration of the mortar (Twice the jitter, third the range, half the rotation speed, and losing 25% of the clip) you don't reap the rewards.

I think what people are not understanding is that these were not just range changes. Those would have been an awesome way to bring in specialization of the high reward risk we continue to mention. Now you get close and I'll need a moment to do some math but it isn't looking any better than other piercing explosive combos that work at range.

If you want high reward risk then the two have to be proportional. The reward is just not there.

[Thomas]

I played a few matches and I liked most of the changes so far. The gat/mortar was used just a crazy amount more than other guns pre-patch. They're still very viable, you just have to work at it a little harder. Basically it just takes more skill and teamwork. If you can manage that, you can still absolutely shred other ships.

I have noticed a lot more players using the artemis and field gun however. Some players are saying it was buffed too much, but reading the patch notes, the 'buffs' seem relatively minor. It just makes it slightly easier to hit targets at great ranges; although in all honesty, these guns have always been pretty easy to hit targets with.

While the sheer amount of disables is frustrating, I haven't seen anything overwhelming or unbeatable.


Personally I'd recommend just dealing with the changes for a week or so, get used to it, and most importantly: try to adapt. Things have -just- changed, you gotta give it some time to sink in. People are still experimenting and trying to find what works in what situations, just like the last patches. Once things settle a bit and players have a better of what works well where, when, and why; we can really start discussing balance. Right now it's just first impressions.

[NoWuffo]

I am just glad the Artemis wasn't touched.

Shut up! SHUT UP!! Don't draw attention to this fact, I don't want it nerfed next go-around!!

I think the patch has been up for long enough to have pretty solid first impressions. There will be continuous updates and shifts in favors over the following weeks. The point is, there are a lot of people unhappy with the severity of this patch. I hope a hotfix comes out soon to give a little bit of power back to the gat/mortar (either range or damage, not both) since I think it was nerfed too hard. I like the sniping buffs, I want to see more of the Hades, and I like attempt at making more viable gun combos.

I think I'll be trading in my pyra for my good ol' Junker, or my mobula, or hell maybe the new Spire. It saddens me though that yet another patch roles around and the ship taking the most heat is the brawler Pyra. Good night, RamRod.

[dragonmere]

I have some questions, and I'm really curious for serious answers. I can't give input on weapon balance if I don't understand what balanced means. I'd really like to clear up any misunderstandings so I can take a fresh look at this patch.

How are we supposed to be playing the game?
The argument is that gat/mortar was too powerful, and too quick. Exactly how long is a kill supposed to take? How long is an engagement supposed to last? How long is a match supposed to last?

The argument is that the gat/mortar was over used. What is the desired distribution of weapon usage? What about ship usage? How often am I supposed to switch my weapon loadouts?

Have I been playing the game the wrong way for the last six months?
I've been attempting to find the best, most efficient weapon combinations for each ship to get the quickest and most reliable kill. I look at what the most accurate weapons are at reasonable ranges, and what setups maximize the damage.

I've then been practicing those loadouts to make them as efficient as possible. Timing the gat fire so that exactly as the final bullet takes down the hull, the clip is getting reloaded. When that gat bullet connects with the armor, the majority of the mortar clip is already in the air.

Am I playing this game wrong? What am I supposed to be getting better at, if not quick, reliable kills?

What is the perfect balance we're aiming for?
Matches where no matter what combination of ships, weapons, and crew load outs, the matches always last 40 minutes, and always end 4-5?

We're supposedly balancing for new players to feel comfortable, and this is possibly at the expense of the highly competitive scene. What are new players supposed to aspire towards? What do they do when they are no longer new? Competitive matches that are admittedly not the focus of balance?

Where do I go from here?
Am I just supposed to shut up, learn and practice a 'new meta', which will then be labeled unbalanced, and subsequently nerfed? Thats how it's been the entire time I've been playing.

Or am I supposed to start picking guns and ships completely at random and having a silly, 'balanced' time? That's not what I had in mind.

It's hard for me to be objective about weapon balance if the game I'm attempting to play is vastly different from what developers intended.