The Spire.

[Echoez]

I've often mused that a more forward facing right gun (not so forward that you could double merc) would make for an overall higher dps from GOI's glass cannon since the gun would have to spend less time being turned forward when mounted and would be in arc more often.

The Spire certainly isn't in jeopardy of being op and though it may not make it the best ship in GOI at the very least I think it'd make the ship even more fun to fly.

I personaly believe that the Spire should finally get a proper light gun bi-fecta in its front (Yes even dual Merc should work), you need that power over other ships if you want to be called a Glass cannon and it would make it special in a way since it will be the only ships with 2 light guns and a heavy gun pointed at one direction and give it the much needed 'cannon' that it currently lacks.

Turning that gun further is surely one of the better ways to go about it though withouth changing the current ship's role too much, agreed there.

Thanks for making this post for me, i wanted to do so one myself but daeum, im afraid of flamers or wording it out badly.

I was pretty much expecting a horribly negative responce don't worry, suprised to see people actually share my concerns about the Spire unlike back in 1.2 where there was a massive confusion about it.

To me it feels as though every ship has one particularly good stat.. such as speed or durability, In my eyes the spire has nothing OUTSTANDING to flaunt around.

Exactly, which is why I'm stating my concerns in this thread, the ship has nothing going for it other than "It's made of glass" and that's nothing to be proud of

Also to add something, it's weakness to counter-sniping mainly comes to the fact that it's horribly weak to all sniping weapons like the Mercury, Artemis (it's gun is exposed and can't dodge due to lack of starfing, easy target) and the LJ (cause massive balloonz), the problem is, even if you do get the first hits in, your enemy is still most of the times tanky enough to withstand them and then comes the counter-battery fire, god save you cause your health bars will be dropping all over the place.

Coordinating a crew on it is also bonkers crazy. With randoms it's near impossible and when I get to play with people I know or clan mates my first thought is "At least I can run it now" not "Oh now we will pwn cause this ship is amazing if you know you to run it", no, the Galleon is amazing with a very good crew, but can still run even with a mediocre one. The Spire.. well the Spire can't run without a good crew and just barely makes it with one.

Yeah I'm meaning more acceleration rather than speed so it feels really responsive moving and turning rather than outright fast. I was just thinking some more after posting: the Spire is a sentinel ship so it should be able to stand its ground once it's dug in. Its name, appearance and composition make it the perfect ship for parking up, watching and waiting for the enemy. In this regard I think it could do with being tankier so it's more formidable if allowed to get into a good position. It's going to be inherently more vulnerable as a stationary target (that's also huge!) so the added HP would only help solidfy its role in my opinion, without unbalancing it.

This is the second way of which I've though the Spire could be balanced towards, which makes sense cause we all know that role is currently much better carried out by the Mobula, the Spire could be very easily turned into the frontal gun platform version of the Galleon, kinda like how the Pyra and the Junker relate, I just think this might change too much about the ship, but I would be willing to test it.

[geggis]

...the Spire could be very easily turned into the frontal gun platform version of the Galleon, kinda like how the Pyra and the Junker relate...

I think that's a good comparison too, with the Galleon being the only other ship where the pilot hopping off the helm is viable or even expected behaviour given the proximity of the balloon, the nearest gun and the nature of the ship (in that it's more of a static platform than a super mobile ship so the captain should have more down time than, say, a squid).

[Cl ick to Ca p t ain]

As someone who's got more Spire ram kills that I wish I could start painting them on the Hull of my ship, the ship can be brawled in pretty successfully in certain situational circumstances. I would suggest anyone who thinks otherwise start taking one into the Labyrinth with Impact Bumpers. The big advantage of a Spire ram is that it will not move side to side when you hit something, making it so you can literally control the enemy's movement in extreme close quarters.  Plus, once the other ship is broken, scraping against the floors of the capture point, you can run them through with a well timed chute vent/impact bumpers combo. Also it's a great defensive ship, since they're always target #1 in enemy focus fire, you position behind your team mate and burn kerosine in reverse once the engagement starts giving you constant full frontal guns on your enemy while you flee. There are tons of avenues for spire play, but you never see them in competitive play because even with the hull buff they are still the most picked on airship in this scene, even tho in my opinion if any ship needs help it'd be the Mobula.

[Echoez]

As someone who's got more Spire ram kills that I wish I could start painting them on the Hull of my ship, the ship can be brawled in pretty successfully in certain situational circumstances. I would suggest anyone who thinks otherwise start taking one into the Labyrinth with Impact Bumpers. The big advantage of a Spire ram is that it will not move side to side when you hit something, making it so you can literally control the enemy's movement in extreme close quarters.  Plus, once the other ship is broken, scraping against the floors of the capture point, you can run them through with a well timed chute vent/impact bumpers combo. Also it's a great defensive ship, since they're always target #1 in enemy focus fire, you position behind your team mate and burn kerosine in reverse once the engagement starts giving you constant full frontal guns on your enemy while you flee. There are tons of avenues for spire play, but you never see them in competitive play because even with the hull buff they are still the most picked on airship in this scene, even tho in my opinion if any ship needs help it'd be the Mobula.

Then you realize that your balloon is out.

I'm honestly apologizing, but if your enemies get rammed by you more often than you get rammed by them then I will be forced to question their performance. I've gotten my fair share of Spire ram kills, with both Chute Vent and just ramming the ship onto them, but that doesn't mean my enemies were actually any good.

It's horrible in competitive games cause people know you can't do much when you are alone, but they will have a much easier time killing you fast enough (unlike a Galleon that can take a beating) after they take care of your ally  whom you can't realy protect. They can also simply snipe you and you're done for, around 24 merc shots is all you can take and if they brought Artemises as well, you're screwed. They will also not ram you at all, just sit close enough and kill you, rendering the Bumpers pretty useless IMO (let alone you sacrifice way too much by bringing Bumpers and not something else, it's simply not a sensible choice)

Also you can't control the enemy's movement, most ships that will ram you are mostly heavier than you and they will have Kerozene, that now properly applies angular drag, so they won't be turning much if at all, good luck if they decided to bring Moonshine. Where did you get the idea that it's a good choice to stay close to anything with a Spire anyway? When does this 'control' come in play soon enough to keep you from dying cause I don't see it.

I mean, you are arguing Spire rams right now, come on.

[Wundsalz]

I think the spire always felt kind of off.  While the Spire looks quite tanky it isn't at all. People say it's a glass cannon but I agree with others here stating that it lacks quite some bang for the bucks to justify this title. The easiest option to make the spire more viable might be to make it more tanky - either squidlike, by granting it a lot of structural hull or by granting it a junker like tank behaviour - hard shell soft core.
Currently, unlike other ships, the spire doesn't really have an imprinted role and in most cases there are better picks than a spire setup available to fulfill certain task in your team.

I think that's a good comparison too, with the Galleon being the only other ship where the pilot hopping off the helm is viable or even expected behaviour

I jump off the helm regulary on almost every other ship as well if the situation calls for it.
mobula -> front weapon
junker -> balloon, side guns, (hull), very rarely steering
pyra -> hull
goldfish -> balloon

The only ship where I really don't see a need to ever leave the helm is the squid. Prior to 1.3.2 I used to sit on the hull though in case all our engines had been destroyed. As one can't reach the hull standing on the helm side balloon after the patch, this option isn't viable anymore. Still it might be a viable option to help out with the engine repairs in similar situations now.

[Captain Smollett]

What about sticking the lower port gun at a 45 degree angle too similar to the upper starboard gun? That should open up a trifecta on either side of the ship and make that gun slot more useful. I'd happily see some acceleration and HP buffs too.

Wait can we talk about this more?  This is actually kind of brilliant.  If the bottom left gun got arced forward and the top right gun got arced farther forward the Spire instantly gets more cannon for its glass.  In an alpha strike the hull engi takes left gun and the pilot takes right gun making a quadfecta. 

Furthermore it would finally give the hull engineer something fun to do without getting too far away from the hull.

This would make the Spire truly a glass cannon, fragile, but very threatening if left alone.

[Echoez]

I don't think that splitting the firing arcs like a V in front of the ship would actually as be beneficial as it looks on paper, besides, that lower gun is a very good place to put a support gun like a Flare, losing the ability to aim back with that due to angling wouldn't be that good and it would have the same problem the current top gun has, VERY limited choices, it's what we are actually trying to solve by just turning the current top deck gun an other 45 degrees to the front to make all guns viable for it.

More viable guns, less awkward 45 degree angling so my second engineer can contribute more and more cannon where it's actually needed. That's an other thing, Tri-fectas should be the standart and EASY thing to do with this ship if it is to be a glass cannon and that means no akward angling required to do it, it's already very hard to run, I don't think you should have to work more than you already have to just to get a tri-fecta on a 'Glass cannon'

Just make both top light guns face forward and you solve so many problems, I personaly would be willing to overlook all of the short comings of this ship if it had 3 guns facing forward, cause it would be actually worth it. Make it be worth it without over-stressing the pilots and crew.

[Queso]

The spire's real advantage is that it's a combination of light and heavy guns that can still approach or retreat while firing, unlike a galleon. Unlike the goldfish it can compliment damage types. I think the idea of turning the other bottom gun at an angle as well is really interesting. It prevents the spire from being an even better sniping platform, and allows it to take a second role as an aggressive but fragile piece of artillery. It moves into aggressive range only when it needs too, and can retreat effectively as well. Meanwhile the goldfish remains a faster, stronger, support ship.

[Echoez]

The spire's real advantage is that it's a combination of light and heavy guns that can still approach or retreat while firing, unlike a galleon. Unlike the goldfish it can compliment damage types. I think the idea of turning the other bottom gun at an angle as well is really interesting. It prevents the spire from being an even better sniping platform, and allows it to take a second role as an aggressive but fragile piece of artillery. It moves into aggressive range only when it needs too, and can retreat effectively as well. Meanwhile the goldfish remains a faster, stronger, support ship.

Unless it gets a real, defined role in the game, the Spire can't be truly viable. I'd prefer it to become a better sniping platform and actually do something better than other ships than stay this akward pile of scrap it is right now, it's a ship that wants to do everything but inevitably fails at everything.

It's an akward combination of a Galleon and a Goldfish, but sometimes I realy feel the ship itself is screaming "Kill me now" out of depseration. My poor mutant Spire..

Also regarding the "Approach and retreat" especialy the retreat part, that's implying you have the speed to do so, which you don't.

Generaly very defective.

[shadowsteel]

Here's an idea. All the ships have a faster forward speed than their reverse.

Why not give the Spire faster reverse speed?

It won't be able to use it on an approach because all its guns face forward. So the only benefit would be shooting while retreating. And even then every ship is faster so it would be a very minimal boost.

[HamsterIV]

The spire doesn't so much retreat as prolong close range battle, sometimes that is all it needs. Piloting a spire is about supporting your gunners and denying your opponent battle on their terms.

[Skrimskraw]

The spire doesn't so much retreat as prolong close range battle, sometimes that is all it needs. Piloting a spire is about supporting your gunners and denying your opponent battle on their terms.

yes.
If you can force the enemies to focus your ally for maybe 6 seconds, you'll quickly realize the potential of a spires damage output.

[Echoez]

If you can force the enemies to focus your ally for maybe 6 seconds, you'll quickly realize the potential of a spires damage output.

I can realize the potential of the Galleon's damage output if my ally can keep the enemies occupied for that long by himself and it will be far more devastating and quicker, plus bonus extra health.

Or I can be in a Mobula and have an amazing result as well and way more dodging ability.

Also you can't force anyone to focus someone they don't care about, you can't FORCE the enemy to focus your ally, they will of course come straight for you and be done with it in less than 6 seconds and then your ally will be alone, so your firepower never came into play in a meaningful matter.

[Captain Smollett]

This thread started as a constructive crucible for ideas and thoughts about the Spire and has somehow devolved into another pedantic argument on our lovely forums of people trying to convince people not wanting to be convinced. 

I preferred the former.

[Wundsalz]

What about sticking the lower port gun at a 45 degree angle too similar to the upper starboard gun? That should open up a trifecta on either side of the ship and make that gun slot more useful. I'd happily see some acceleration and HP buffs too.

Wait can we talk about this more?  This is actually kind of brilliant.  If the bottom left gun got arced forward and the top right gun got arced farther forward the Spire instantly gets more cannon for its glass.  In an alpha strike the hull engi takes left gun and the pilot takes right gun making a quadfecta. 

Furthermore it would finally give the hull engineer something fun to do without getting too far away from the hull.

This would make the Spire truly a glass cannon, fragile, but very threatening if left alone.

Oh I must have overread this... sounds like a really promising approach. With such a buff the spire could be turned into a truly powerful glas cannon indeed.