Author Topic: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2  (Read 27345 times)

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2013, 03:13:58 pm »
I say its the range. Get it to sth 1500+ and it is a good sniper weapon. It doesnt have to do the same as the mortar. Kill in one clip. In the case its a real sniper weapon and not just have double the range of the mortar thats fine. At least for me ...
A sniper doesnt have to kill with one clip. That would be pretty unfair if you ask me.

The flak is currently capable of two clip kills at 1700 M range with lesmok, it is an incredible long range weapon. 

I'm not convinced that the light flak is underpowered but I do think it's useful to have the conversation since it is certainly still underutilized. 

Here are two things that I think could make the gun more attractive to players without it losing it's niche or overpowering it:

Increase firing speed - I'd personally like to see a slight rate of fire increase on the gun (so that it's somewhere around 2.25-3 shots per second).  It would help solidify its position as the dependable precision finisher; enabling the gun to fire quicker could help ensure gunners get their shots into narrow kill windows on ships.

Decrease the arming distance - Admittedly I'm a bit biased here as I've always been on the fence about arming time for the flak however that debate aside; 300 meters is a considerable arm time, and I think more than the gun deserves.

Conversely, I think the hades has a too-short arming time for its intended role (long-range piercing and some disabling).

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2013, 07:15:27 pm »
The carronades are now a bane. Every goldfish gets a silver black dual cannon infront of their ships. Or every squid has 2 carronades.

And the damage that it does alone works better at times taking out the hull armor and health.

The shatter damage is a bit too much. It is not often that i see components braking by the carronade, i see more components disabled by the hwacha, and the hwacha still has problems. For some odd reason i cant disable the pyras guns. I heavy clipped a full barrage on those guns yet 4 or 5 hits from a hwacha could disable 2 guns. But on the pyra, nothing.
It probably has something to do with its front ram. It either absorbs too much dmg or it has a weird hitbox.

I tested mines on the pyra, and other ships. What i found out that the pyras front ram takes in a good deal of the front hitbox. If the mines hits aprox inbetween the front ram, a bit lower or on the actual ram then it recieves 40% of the mines damage, if it actually hits the hull, like it has to almost be going down at the mine then it is 100%.

Tested this on every other ship and no other ship has this problem. Maybe something to check on.

Other than that, i still think carronades are a bit too strong. Every baloon is universal, they take soo long to repair. Even for a very small ship. I also dont know why the logic for flachette to transfer over to the hull when the baloon is down. It just plainly makes the carronades a baloon and hull killing weapons. Hitting the ground is bad enough.


To add: I honestly dont know the design of having to change ammo on reload. Wouldnt it be great if it were possible to simply put ammo into a weapon from outside and then it automaticly reloads to that ammo type and stays that ammo type until wasted or reloaded again unto something else. But only dooable if no one is on the gun ofcourse.

This makes gunners to me very bad for just that reason. I would only accept gunners on heavy weapon ships but even on those i still feel like considering tripple engineers. Would be awesome if the ammo types and how you use them would change a bit to make gunners play a better role.


Saturating the ammo types is a great start. Like the lesmok nerf made lesmok exactly what it is intended for. "Wanna shoot something far away? use lesmok"  For ammo types like the greased is not conrasted enough from Charged. It depends on the gun ofcourse, but compare other ammo types with eachother. Fire ammo vs greased, its not too different other than a different effect, and greased would have more benefitt for more weapons. Lochnagar vs Charged. Only 2 guns use lochnagar to its extent and that is the twin carronade and the heavy flak. While charged can be applied to almost all weapons. Having a great effect.

If you make them very different, there would be more uses for the ammo types. For example, heavy clip is almost a must on gattling, while the potential for default gattling shots can be better than heavy, but greased gattling should be devestating to the hull, but fire ammo should be chaotic, charged should force the gattling to be really strong but then it would be forced to get very close. etc...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 07:33:46 pm by Crafeksterty »

Offline Echoez

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2013, 07:47:06 pm »
Carronades already have many limitations, their range is too short, their downwards arc is very limited and their spread without Heavy Clip is still gross at near max range which forces the gun to rely on it until it further closes in.

Also can people please stop complaining about the damn gun? The Heavy carronade got a whooping 1.5 extra seconds to its reload time and it used to have the fastest reload in the whole game, chill your beans people.

And the extra shatter damage it got is actually just about 10 more damage per shot to the hull, it's previous 220 could still one-shot any component so I don't get what's wrong with it.

Damage transfer doesn't have  ANYTHING to do with Flechette damage, the carronade simply fires multiple pellets, so the remaining pellets hit the hull if the balloon is destroyed.



I'd like to point out that I agree with Smollett on the Light Flak's arming time, it's a bit too long right now, could use some slight shortening to make the weapon more attractive.

Offline Nidh

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2013, 07:49:25 pm »
While I agree the Carronade is a bit too powerful, I don't feel very good using it on my Goldie, I just can't see any other viable brawling weapon for the Goldfish that actually makes it a threat. Granted, the hwacha is easy to point and shoot, but to actually DO anything useful with a hwacha is much harder than it might seem, on a Goldfish anyway. If the carronade were to take some nerf I would strongly suggest for at least one new heavy weapon that fulfills the brawling role, or buff the hwacha to make it easier to disable at mid range. The reason I ask for a new heavy weapon is the same reason that the Gatling was used so heavily, there were no other mid/close range piercing weapons.

Just to be clear though, I think the Carronade SHOULD have the ability to lockdown a ship from the fight, but only ONE ship. Currently it is able to lockdown both with some good coordination. It's killing power is also little high for that job, I feel like any support/disabling ship should be able to it's job very well, but need an ally to actually finish off the opponent within a reasonable amount of time. This is also why I think the hwacha needs a small buff, it can't kill very well on it's own AND it has a very hard time doing it's job (disabling) well.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 08:03:51 pm by Nidh »

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2013, 11:19:38 pm »
Without going into too much detail tonight:

Carronades are fine. Yea, it's probably one of the most annoying ways to die, but that just comes with the territory. Exploit its arcs, range, and balloon dependency. It can't damage bare hull quickly, and it literally throws the target outside its own arcs unless the pilot is good.

My understanding of the balloon/hull damage transfer is this: Balloon goes down. Any damage that is then done to the destroyed balloon, is transferred to the hull. This is why carronades are the true Achilles heel for Junkers. It has always been that way and really I can't see a need to change it.

Goldie just needs a new medium gun to play with. Flak fish isnt great (better now but not good enough), and lumberfish is very situational. Leaves you with two solid options, and it takes away from it a little.

Happy debating.

Offline Captain Blueberry

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2013, 04:45:54 am »
I don't think the Hwacha is a useful gun for the Goldfish.

It can't kill and it takes longer to effectively disable. For me the Carronade is the better disabler, now more so than ever with the smaller cone of fire and bigger range. The Hwachafish is more of a nuisance than an issue.
The Flak is only useful if you have a wingman with good armor stripping capabilities. Maybe a sniping junker or something like that. Otherwise the Flakfish is no threat but a liability.

So yeah, Carronade it is, unless you have a good gunner then you can think about a Lumberjack. For me the Goldfish only has 1 and 1/2 gun choices.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 04:48:52 am by Captain Blueberry »

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2013, 09:22:37 am »
Then we have had totally different experiences with a Hwacha-fish. I can kill and disable quite handily, especially because I can control my engagement so well with a Goldfish over a Spire or Galleon. It kills very well when hitting bare hull (time it like flak) and can wreak havoc on ships.

Offline Nidh

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2013, 09:47:46 am »
Sorry Zill, but that's like saying "I'm so good I can kill a guy with a spoon, why can't you do that?" The hwacha is very difficult to use effectively. It can kill, yes, but it requires coordination and most importantly another light gun. The carronade doesn't require another gun to do it's killing, which is where I think the imbalance comes into play. If you're using the hwacha to kill, you're doing it wrong. I think the same should go for the carronade, if it has the potential to lock down both ships then it should NOT have the ability to kill so easily.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2013, 10:15:09 am »
I never said it was the best for killing, only that it is able to. It's main role is "disable all the things" and make target x a waste of airspace. Unlike a carronade which is more a dps gun that can grind its target into dust (slowly thanks to its low damage to bare hull), the hwacha is an all-or-nothing shock tool. Timing is paramount. The Goldfish was never a true kill ship on its own, and using it as such is an uphill fight.

The only time a carronade can lock both people is if they are both in front of you, and if they both neglect to disable that extremely exposed gun. I'm sorry, but that's not the gun's fault.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2013, 10:29:07 am »
Ok, sorry in advance for the slight thread derailment.

What ever happened to those amazing threads we used to have with swivelfish strategies.  Basically a hwacha on the front of a goldfish and a chaingun on the side.  Just swing the guns back and forth and time the second hwacha shot for when the enemy armor is down to make the kill.

Though I like many would love to see another heavy weapon, which thankfully by the way, is already in development.

Ok everyone, let's get back to talking about gun balance.

Offline Nidh

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2013, 10:59:35 am »
If you're flying a blenderfish right, the other team CAN'T disable the Carronade, which would be fine except that the Carronade can kill you in a reasonable amount of time. Unlike the hwacha which can save itself from being disabled (theoretically if your gunner is absolutely perfect, which is why I think the hwacha could use a buff. Too hard to do the job it was made for) but the hwacha can't kill in a reasonable amount of time on it's own.

Offline awkm

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2013, 11:01:18 am »
It seems like Carronades are the new Field Guns lol.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2013, 11:14:49 am »
And you said 50m was nothing, heh.

Nidh, I'll say again that we are apparently having much different experiences with carronades. I'm not calling you dense or incapable of dealing with them either, just that I've disabled plenty after the patch (through many different means so I won't go in depth there unless you'd like me to).

The hwacha was never meant to be a pure killing gun, so making it one will just imbalance it. The biggest issue is the lack of medium guns (which is apparently being worked on) so I can't support a buff to the hwacha to make it do something outside of its intended role.


Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2013, 11:23:44 am »
There are a lot of emotions around the blenderfish mainly for two reasons, neither of which have to do with the gun being balanced or unbalanced in anyway:

1) The heavy carronade is the most competitive front gun for a goldfish, and for some people, the only viable gun.  A nerf to it would hinder their ability to fly a ship that they very much enjoy.

2) Being blended to death can be grueling and frustrating since your death and can take several minutes if your ally doesn't come to help.  This is far longer than an explosive dealt death that happens within seconds.

In my opinion, the carronades are very powerful, but really more or less balanced.  Carronades really punish teams that don't fly together. 

I personally have been killed by blenderfish over several minutes while my crew and I were doing an incredible job holding the ship together, repeatedly calling for my ally and never getting assistance only to die a slow and painful death.  Conversely and much more frequently, I've flown with skilled allies who pour in fire on my would be blender, allowing me to regain my own gun arcs, and quickly dispatch the blenderfish.



Offline Nidh

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2013, 11:25:34 am »
I didn't want to talk about my skill as a point for balance, but I don't have much trouble against carronades at all if I'm flying my Goldfish. Any ship I'm not so comfortable in, well, that's another matter but besides the point. If I'm on my game and in my comfortzone, carronades are not a problem for me, BUT having flown a blenderfish with huge success I get the feeling that it's too easy. I can tell when I don't have to put that much effort into beating the other team, and whenever I fly with a blenderfish things go way too smoothly. So it's not that I have trouble with it, it's that there's not enough trouble in using it.

As for a buff to the hwacha, to be clear I don't want it to have any killing power at all. I want it to be able to do it's job easier, which is disable. Maybe an increase to it's explosion radius, that's all. As it stands now, it is far too hard to disable anything from mid range onward, and it's reload time does not fit it's difficulty of use.