Author Topic: Rapid Fire - Left Click  (Read 50528 times)

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2013, 03:44:22 pm »
A high end mouse, specifically one with an on-the-fly changeable DPI, make a HUGE difference in this game. Any time I have an engineer/gunner hitting 90-99.99% of gat shots DEAD center, I ask what kind of a mouse they have. Almost every single time, it's a Razor or some other comparable high end mouse. It's so important that if you want to be a dedicated chain-gunner on my crew, a high-end mouse is REQUIRED, not preferred. Is this unfair? Hell no. It's what these gamers paid for - an advantage with mouse precision/aiming.

I use a crappy, 10 year-old Logitech mouse, and I'll have to disagree with that. This isn't a twitch shooter or anything like that.

Offline treseritops

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2013, 04:31:22 pm »
A high end mouse, specifically one with an on-the-fly changeable DPI, make a HUGE difference in this game. Any time I have an engineer/gunner hitting 90-99.99% of gat shots DEAD center, I ask what kind of a mouse they have. Almost every single time, it's a Razor or some other comparable high end mouse. It's so important that if you want to be a dedicated chain-gunner on my crew, a high-end mouse is REQUIRED, not preferred. Is this unfair? Hell no. It's what these gamers paid for - an advantage with mouse precision/aiming.

I would point more towards practice on this one. The reason I think most people miss with the gatling is because the tracers are mostly useless and shooting from certain positions (side of junker for instance) you have to aim wayyyy off target to actually hit them. There was a point yesterday (I think we were using kerosene while moving in a circle around a target from a decent range) that I was so far off from the crosshairs meeting the target that it took me a clip and a half to find the spot, and even then I couldn't believe I had to aim a good inch and a half on my screen away from them to hit. Evidently I have not used the gatling enough lately but I think the people you play with have great mouses, but more importantly have *incredible* skill.

I'll give you that changing the DPI would (I guess) let you adjust so that when repairing you can make a fast run and then while on the gatling make very small adjustments, but I still think they are probably just really excellent players first and foremost.

Offline RaptorSystems

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2013, 10:33:16 am »
If you claim razor mouses are a necessity (which I don't), then you may consider: Rapid Fire Macro - Razor

I would have to argue that a heavy flak or lumber puts a gunner through their paces more than a gat. However, that really wasn't what I was pointing out, nor what this discussion is about.

The main point that has been raised is that any modifications which reduce the level of 'skill' required to play is considered 'cheating', the question I was asking is then modifications like weighted mouses considered cheating as accuracy is a skill.

Edit: Added clarity.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 10:55:34 am by RaptorSystems »

Offline Eukari

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2013, 02:39:37 pm »
I think adding "mechanical" help is not cheating ... right up until the point where you're replacing player input with mechanical assistance.

A weighted mouse is not cheating, because you still need a player who can aim that mouse and pull the trigger (press the mouse button) at the correct time. An aimbot is cheating because you are no longer needing a player to aim the gun that shoots down the enemy ship.

I'm not much of a computer 'whiz,' but if the script the OP posted is designed to let you fire guns without having to actually press the fire button each time, then yes, it is cheating. Just as it would be cheating for me to employ a method to auto-spot an enemy ship whenever it moves into my line of sight. Technically, it's not doing anything that I couldn't do on my own, but it's removing the player element from the equation (i.e., I no longer have to actually aim my spyglass and spot the enemy) in a way that's patently over the line.

I don't blame people for looking for ways to improve their performance, but I think that running outside programs that remove player input doesn't quite fall under the spirit of competition.

Offline RaptorSystems

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2013, 09:17:40 am »
I think adding "mechanical" help is not cheating ... right up until the point where you're replacing player input with mechanical assistance.

A weighted mouse is not cheating, because you still need a player who can aim that mouse and pull the trigger (press the mouse button) at the correct time. An aimbot is cheating because you are no longer needing a player to aim the gun that shoots down the enemy ship.

I'm not much of a computer 'whiz,' but if the script the OP posted is designed to let you fire guns without having to actually press the fire button each time, then yes, it is cheating. Just as it would be cheating for me to employ a method to auto-spot an enemy ship whenever it moves into my line of sight. Technically, it's not doing anything that I couldn't do on my own, but it's removing the player element from the equation (i.e., I no longer have to actually aim my spyglass and spot the enemy) in a way that's patently over the line.

I don't blame people for looking for ways to improve their performance, but I think that running outside programs that remove player input doesn't quite fall under the spirit of competition.
For clairty: All the script does is change the motion from rapidly clicking to holding down the click button. You still need to time your shots and aim. It also puts the movement of clicking and holding to rebuild on par with rapidly clicking.

With a weighted mouse the physical vibration from clicking and hand movements are dulled, so it is replacing a percentage of user input.

My concerns are more to do with RSI (repetative strain injury) which can result in permanent damage caused by repetitive muscular movement. Especially after people have been expressing a burning sensation from rapidly (excessive) clicking.

I really wish all weapons fired "full-auto" when you hold down the button, much as how tools were changed to work.

That said, there really should be no difference between holding down the button and rapidly clicking, when it comes to tools.  And when I rapidly click with a weapon, occasionally I will get a "ghost fire" where it doesn't fire, but causes the weapon cooldown.

If there is a difference, it needs to be fixed in the game.

Agreed, this needs to be brought to Muses attention, the question is, is it a bug report or a suggestion?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 09:30:50 am by RaptorSystems »

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2013, 11:11:42 am »
My Logitech Mx 5 is now 7 years old (almost as old as Sunderlands mouse) and it still does its job without any of those things.

I don't blame people for looking for ways to improve their performance, but I think that running outside programs that remove player input doesn't quite fall under the spirit of competition.

->

I like that people look for advantages to get in games, but using methods outside of/not provided by the game itself isn't what I would call "equal and fair sportsmanship".

Offline Plasmarobo

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2013, 06:55:48 pm »
Mechanical devices are just different interfaces. They all send generic HID data to your OS.
Razer Mice have drivers that can optionally enable post-hardware modification of that data. That is pretty identical to your script, and my feelings about it are similar.

I do feel that if you are clever enough to setup macros, you deserve to be able to use them, but I do think it's cheating. I'm conflicted about this point.

Personally I use a Razer High DPI mouse, but I turn the sensitivity down. Normally it translates every little move I make into giant sweeping arcs. I play with the settings on it a lot, but I don't feel it affords me much advantage over my other computer (old microsoft optical mouse, sensitivity maxed).

Different people like different interfaces and will have different hardware. The issue of cheating can't afford to be that pedantic. I think the bottom line is that it is really not difficult to discern when you are 'cheating'. In my mind cheating requires some kind of feedback. Aimbots generally search frame-data for a target. They pull data directly from the game to make decisions.

As others have said before me, as long as you have the human making decisions, the hardware is less important (within reason). The lines get blurred with things like key-macros (starcraft, etc). Bottom line: If you are doing something that people with common knowledge of computers and the game probably couldn't do, it might be time to think about stopping.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2013, 07:06:47 pm »
I don't think it's cheating at all tbh. All it means is that you have to do a bit less clicking. And I'd like to highlight this:

Quote
My concerns are more to do with RSI (repetative strain injury) which can result in permanent damage caused by repetitive muscular movement. Especially after people have been expressing a burning sensation from rapidly (excessive) clicking.

Offline geggis

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2013, 08:37:46 am »
I agree with Sunderland. I raised this with Muse around the time of release after a few friends and I took issue with the constant clicking involved with engineering. I use a vertical mouse at work to prevent RSI as it started setting in a few years ago (thankfully it hasn't flared up since) but it's something I'm constantly aware of and will do anything to prevent as it's painful and debilitating as hell, not to mention it has the potential to endanger my favourite pasttime! I'm glad click and hold repair/rebuilding was implemented but it does annoy me that repeat clicking is still faster. This really shouldn't be the case. I've no real issue with the lack of auto-fire on turrets; I'm not sure it's that necessary as the only semi-automatic weapons in the game with decent clips that you're likely to jab the left mouse button repeatedly with is the Scylla and the Banshee, but even they aren't as constant as repairing, buffing and rebuilding can be. Look at something like NS2 for instance where nearly every sustained action is a click and hold: biting, spitting, swiping, shooting, welding, fixing, breathing etc.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 08:48:39 am by geggis »

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2013, 03:50:28 pm »
I agree that anything that requires repetitive clicking needs to become automatic, namely rebuilding and firing weapons. I really really don't want to lose a game because I had good strategy and technique but couldn't mash a button fast enough.

Offline Cheesy Crackers

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2013, 10:27:42 am »
Iunno about anyone else, but I take pride in my burned out index finger muscles due to massive spam clicking....that and when it comes down to engineering, I found out that spam clicking still works better than holding down (in the case of buffing and rebuilding that is) by maybe a few milliseconds, but that adds up.

Then at parties you can show off your uber buff index fingers and "wow" the crowd!
My left hand... is it a ring finger? to the left of the middle finger. Is still getting really sore from holding the A key down to turn my ship all the time... I guess I should save my keyboard and my fingers by not pressing down so hard all the time whenever something intense is going on :P

Offline Gambrill

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2013, 04:36:01 pm »
As a panic engie. Yes this is a title.
It's where you forget you primary role until the last minuite where you then..... 'remember' and spam click everything until you are okay again. My index finger now looks like The Hulk's neck muscle and i am rpoud of that :)

Offline Gambrill

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2013, 04:38:28 pm »
Also if people need to use these things to keep up with us then who am i to stop them evening the playing field ;)

Offline Sane Alex

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2013, 07:22:51 pm »
Pfft. Scripts are for noobs.

When faced with a problem, REAL men reach for the soldering iron.  :P

http://www.instructables.com/id/Add-a-rapid-fire-button-to-your-mouse-using-a-555-/

14 clicks per second.

$20 project.

Like a boss. 8)

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Rapid Fire - Left Click
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2014, 10:15:58 pm »
A script is free and doesn't make your mouse look ugly  8)