Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: RaptorSystems on September 08, 2013, 05:40:01 am
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Hi,
So with a tiny bit of experimentation I found it was possible to have the carronade, mortor and traditionally click to fire weapons act like the gatling gun, flamer, etc which are click and hold to fire types of weapons.
The most universal way this can be done is through using software such as autohotkey which allows you to define your own global shortcuts.
For example this script enables the insert key to toggle rapid fire left click
Ins::Suspend
LButton::
Loop
{
SetMouseDelay 30
Click
If (GetKeyState("LButton","P")=0)
Break
}
Found at: http://www.autohotkey.com/board/topic/39855-rapidfire-left-click-script/
Certain mouse drivers also support this type of integration.
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I like that people look for advantages to get in games, but using methods outside of/not provided by the game itself isn't what I would call "equal and fair sportsmanship".
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If the tools and guns didn't have their own internal cooldowns, I'd call it cheating. Really though, this is just saving your mouse's lifespan. No issue with me here considering you can manually click far faster than the cooldowns of said tools and guns.
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You can click faster than this? Hm... I thought it was quite the contrary. Considering this, why not use it for the people who would like too.
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You can click faster than this? Hm... I thought it was quite the contrary. Considering this, why not use it for the people who would like too.
It won't make a mortar fire any faster, but it will save your fingers. I guess I'd allow it, but I'm not gonna use it myself. Clicking as fast as I can is fun. It's actually kinda cool, though.
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While I reckon the benefits of such a script to be rather marginal, I think it's still cheating. I personally click with roughly 4-6Hz on guns like the carronade/mortar. That's roughly 200ms inbetween two cliks - quite a time gap which can be filled with scripts like yours. If you're able to fire each shot of a mortar volley 50ms earlier than me your last round will leave your gun 0.5s-0.9s earlier than mine. Not a biggie imo, but it still might possibly grant an advantage in outgunning situations.
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With server lag taken into account, I imagine the benefit would be hard to reap consistently.
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Iunno about anyone else, but I take pride in my burned out index finger muscles due to massive spam clicking....that and when it comes down to engineering, I found out that spam clicking still works better than holding down (in the case of buffing and rebuilding that is) by maybe a few milliseconds, but that adds up.
That's what reloading / cooldown is for ~ shake loose your muscles then get back at it. Also the feel of full control with such weapons where you have to rapid click....that whole "I did that" feel...
like blasting out four lesmok rounds into a ship 2km away with a Lumberjack and seeing all four hit indicators after those few seconds of silence...feels too good...
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Yeah, personally I'm considering it from an RSI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury) preventative point of view, it would be easy enough to measure one's own average click rate and then adjust the script to match, however that can't be easily policed or detected.
I could be wrong but I would assume that clicks are filtered both client and server side, networking is expensive, you don't want to send pointless packets. Would need a muse developer to comment to really know though.
Also for clarity, I didn't write or modify the script, I just found it on that forum.
Edit: spelling correction.
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Well, i can click 12 times per second when I need to, and I have pretty good timing regardless, so I wouldn't get much benefit from a script like that. =p Clicking once every 83ms isn't as good as once every 30ms, but it's good enough for me. I can count the number of times those 53ms would have saved me on zero hands. (Actually, there might have been one time where it could have saved me, but that's about one out of a few thousand times)
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As I mainly play the engineer role I tend to do a lot of clicking. I'm worried that one day I'll get RSI from all the repetitive clicking at some point and have to stop playing this game. So I am pro anything that reduces the stupid amounts of clicking you have to do in this game :).
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As I mainly play the engineer role I tend to do a lot of clicking. I'm worried that one day I'll get RSI from all the repetitive clicking at some point and have to stop playing this game.
To be fair there already is a click and hold function for continuous hits.
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As I mainly play the engineer role I tend to do a lot of clicking. I'm worried that one day I'll get RSI from all the repetitive clicking at some point and have to stop playing this game.
To be fair there already is a click and hold function for continuous hits.
I think a lot of people don't realize this because the timing of the rebuild hits don't match up with the animations. Like, if you tap the left mouse button when rebuilding a part, it animates each swing that rebuilds the meter, but if you just hold the button it still rebuilds at the same pace but the spanner/wrench/whatever doesn't match up with the "ticks." At least, that's what it is from what I can tell.
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Ok, just to kill off this thread.
Modifying hardware to manipulate inputs sent to a game is not a cheat. Having hardware that offer things that override the application's ways of working is a cheat. Having software that changes the game's behavior(like aimbots) is a cheat. This is the best part of course, the game has no way to distinguish a good clicker from a macro because there really isn't any difference. The script in OP post is permitted by what I just said. If the macro makes the game behave differently, then that's a flaw in the game and the game's developers should be fighting it. Easy as lie... I mean pie.
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As I mainly play the engineer role I tend to do a lot of clicking. I'm worried that one day I'll get RSI from all the repetitive clicking at some point and have to stop playing this game.
To be fair there already is a click and hold function for continuous hits.
I think a lot of people don't realize this because the timing of the rebuild hits don't match up with the animations. Like, if you tap the left mouse button when rebuilding a part, it animates each swing that rebuilds the meter, but if you just hold the button it still rebuilds at the same pace but the spanner/wrench/whatever doesn't match up with the "ticks." At least, that's what it is from what I can tell.
At least for rebuilding it does *not* actually click as fast as a person. If you click and hold it clicks every x amount of milliseconds but the problem is there is no cool down for rebuild. So if you can somehow click once every millisecond you can rebuild the hull in like 10milliseconds (like when two or three engineers all rebuild a hull at the same time...no cool down).
I accidentally let our ship die yesterday experimenting with this. "Wow, this rebuild seems slower... oh my god it definitely is! HURRY HURRY HURR- BOOM" hahaha
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What, really? That's interesting; I assumed it was the same, because I could see it "ticking" when the spanner wasn't falling. I guess I gotta get back to clicking!
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So can anyone confirm that the click hold rebuild is just as fast as clicking like a madman? Because that's how i tend to do it when i'm engineering.
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In my experience rapidly clicking has been slightly faster.
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In the past two Sunday rumbles I have been a main engineer for BFS and have used the click to hold technique that was added in a patch earlier this year.
Just to be clear I haven't used rapid clicking ever during competitions. I wanted to broach this topic on the forum and have some level of transparency before even considering it.
I hadn't considered if it was slower for rebuilding, I'll test this out in my own practice match.
- Should all weapons have an optional click and hold to fire mode?
- Is click and hold repairing at threshold of spam click?
- Does spamming clicks send extra packets?
I would also like to thank every one so far for contributing to what I find both an important and interesting discussion.
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I'm playing a game with RaptorSystems right now, everyone on our team is a pilot and I only have a mallet. You can really tell the difference between click and hold and rapid fire clicking when you are rebuilding components with a mallet
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I really wish all weapons fired "full-auto" when you hold down the button, much as how tools were changed to work.
That said, there really should be no difference between holding down the button and rapidly clicking, when it comes to tools. And when I rapidly click with a weapon, occasionally I will get a "ghost fire" where it doesn't fire, but causes the weapon cooldown.
If there is a difference, it needs to be fixed in the game.
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Yeah, there's a pretty big difference between holding down the mouse and rapidly clicking the mouse when rebuilding.
Here's a short clip I captured using FRAPS (you can play this in VLC, I have no experience with video editing so I just compressed it). The first rebuild is done by holding down left-click. The second rebuild is done by using an autoclick script.
hzzp://cl.ly/code/1R121y2J1K36 --mildly suspicious link, open at your own risk -CA Queso
If someone wants to do a frame-by-frame comparison or something like that, go ahead.
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That link isn't dangerous, it's just the way the cloud redirects to a page before linking to the file. :-[
But here's a different link on Dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1albvx9ebisqw74/GoI%20Autoclickies.mp4 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1albvx9ebisqw74/GoI%20Autoclickies.mp4)
Is this less suspicious?
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Yeah that's looking better, thanks.
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As I mainly play the engineer role I tend to do a lot of clicking. I'm worried that one day I'll get RSI from all the repetitive clicking at some point and have to stop playing this game.
To be fair there already is a click and hold function for continuous hits.
I think a lot of people don't realize this because the timing of the rebuild hits don't match up with the animations. Like, if you tap the left mouse button when rebuilding a part, it animates each swing that rebuilds the meter, but if you just hold the button it still rebuilds at the same pace but the spanner/wrench/whatever doesn't match up with the "ticks." At least, that's what it is from what I can tell.
At least for rebuilding it does *not* actually click as fast as a person. If you click and hold it clicks every x amount of milliseconds but the problem is there is no cool down for rebuild. So if you can somehow click once every millisecond you can rebuild the hull in like 10milliseconds (like when two or three engineers all rebuild a hull at the same time...no cool down).
I accidentally let our ship die yesterday experimenting with this. "Wow, this rebuild seems slower... oh my god it definitely is! HURRY HURRY HURR- BOOM" hahaha
Clicking rapidly rebuilds things faster than click-and-holding, but it by no means rebuilds as fast as you can click. If it could, my ships would never die, ya know, since I can click 12 times per second. There's a small cooldown, a little less than a second, before the next tool swing registers.
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As I mainly play the engineer role I tend to do a lot of clicking. I'm worried that one day I'll get RSI from all the repetitive clicking at some point and have to stop playing this game.
To be fair there already is a click and hold function for continuous hits.
I think a lot of people don't realize this because the timing of the rebuild hits don't match up with the animations. Like, if you tap the left mouse button when rebuilding a part, it animates each swing that rebuilds the meter, but if you just hold the button it still rebuilds at the same pace but the spanner/wrench/whatever doesn't match up with the "ticks." At least, that's what it is from what I can tell.
At least for rebuilding it does *not* actually click as fast as a person. If you click and hold it clicks every x amount of milliseconds but the problem is there is no cool down for rebuild. So if you can somehow click once every millisecond you can rebuild the hull in like 10milliseconds (like when two or three engineers all rebuild a hull at the same time...no cool down).
I accidentally let our ship die yesterday experimenting with this. "Wow, this rebuild seems slower... oh my god it definitely is! HURRY HURRY HURR- BOOM" hahaha
Clicking rapidly rebuilds things faster than click-and-holding, but it by no means rebuilds as fast as you can click. If it could, my ships would never die, ya know, since I can click 12 times per second. There's a small cooldown, a little less than a second, before the next tool swing registers.
So by any chance do you know, there would be a cap then where having a double engi vs triple engi on the hull wouldn't actually build any faster, right? Or are you saying a single person has their own cooldown?
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The spanner has a 0.75 second pause between successive hits. There is no cooldown on the rebuilds or people themselves, just the tool.
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I'm pretty sure guns and tools have an internal 'fire rate'.
Sort of like how a semi-automatic gun has mechanical delays which control fire rate. Input devices are only polled so many times per second in most game engines.
So yeah, triple engie will be better most of the time. Unless it's easy enough to rebuild that two engies could do it in the same time frame.
For the record, I'm pretty sure any automation or 'turbo' functions could be considered a cheat. If you've got some medical condition, that's a different story. It's a question of advantage vs disadvantage while discarding skill and 'improvable' attributes. If you work out your clicking finger, well, you deserve to click faster than me.
Edit: Sunderland'd
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That link isn't dangerous, it's just the way the cloud redirects to a page before linking to the file. :-[
But here's a different link on Dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1albvx9ebisqw74/GoI%20Autoclickies.mp4 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1albvx9ebisqw74/GoI%20Autoclickies.mp4)
Is this less suspicious?
The spanner has a 0.75 second pause between successive hits. There is no cooldown on the rebuilds or people themselves, just the tool.
Yeah, when I was testing this is pretty much what I found too, just haven't taken a video of it.
In regards to click & hold rebuilds not being as fast as rapid clicking rebuilds.
Should this be reported in bugs and game issues, or feedback and suggestions?
I'm pretty sure guns and tools have an internal 'fire rate'.
Sort of like how a semi-automatic gun has mechanical delays which control fire rate. Input devices are only polled so many times per second in most game engines.
So yeah, triple engie will be better most of the time. Unless it's easy enough to rebuild that two engies could do it in the same time frame.
For the record, I'm pretty sure any automation or 'turbo' functions could be considered a cheat. If you've got some medical condition, that's a different story. It's a question of advantage vs disadvantage while discarding skill and 'improvable' attributes. If you work out your clicking finger, well, you deserve to click faster than me.
Edit: Sunderland'd
I sort of understand where you are coming from, but with the logic of "advantage vs disadvantage while discarding skill and 'improvable' attributes". What do you say about people who use a weighted mouse? Are they cheating too.
I know it's not completely comparable because In theory a rapid fire click script is actually more universal due to ironahk being opensource and crossplatform, where as a precision weighted mouse really is a question of investment of the user.
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A high end mouse, specifically one with an on-the-fly changeable DPI, make a HUGE difference in this game. Any time I have an engineer/gunner hitting 90-99.99% of gat shots DEAD center, I ask what kind of a mouse they have. Almost every single time, it's a Razor or some other comparable high end mouse. It's so important that if you want to be a dedicated chain-gunner on my crew, a high-end mouse is REQUIRED, not preferred. Is this unfair? Hell no. It's what these gamers paid for - an advantage with mouse precision/aiming.
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A high end mouse, specifically one with an on-the-fly changeable DPI, make a HUGE difference in this game. Any time I have an engineer/gunner hitting 90-99.99% of gat shots DEAD center, I ask what kind of a mouse they have. Almost every single time, it's a Razor or some other comparable high end mouse. It's so important that if you want to be a dedicated chain-gunner on my crew, a high-end mouse is REQUIRED, not preferred. Is this unfair? Hell no. It's what these gamers paid for - an advantage with mouse precision/aiming.
I use a crappy, 10 year-old Logitech mouse, and I'll have to disagree with that. This isn't a twitch shooter or anything like that.
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A high end mouse, specifically one with an on-the-fly changeable DPI, make a HUGE difference in this game. Any time I have an engineer/gunner hitting 90-99.99% of gat shots DEAD center, I ask what kind of a mouse they have. Almost every single time, it's a Razor or some other comparable high end mouse. It's so important that if you want to be a dedicated chain-gunner on my crew, a high-end mouse is REQUIRED, not preferred. Is this unfair? Hell no. It's what these gamers paid for - an advantage with mouse precision/aiming.
I would point more towards practice on this one. The reason I think most people miss with the gatling is because the tracers are mostly useless and shooting from certain positions (side of junker for instance) you have to aim wayyyy off target to actually hit them. There was a point yesterday (I think we were using kerosene while moving in a circle around a target from a decent range) that I was so far off from the crosshairs meeting the target that it took me a clip and a half to find the spot, and even then I couldn't believe I had to aim a good inch and a half on my screen away from them to hit. Evidently I have not used the gatling enough lately but I think the people you play with have great mouses, but more importantly have *incredible* skill.
I'll give you that changing the DPI would (I guess) let you adjust so that when repairing you can make a fast run and then while on the gatling make very small adjustments, but I still think they are probably just really excellent players first and foremost.
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If you claim razor mouses are a necessity (which I don't), then you may consider: Rapid Fire Macro - Razor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUDHu0IW1l8)
I would have to argue that a heavy flak or lumber puts a gunner through their paces more than a gat. However, that really wasn't what I was pointing out, nor what this discussion is about.
The main point that has been raised is that any modifications which reduce the level of 'skill' required to play is considered 'cheating', the question I was asking is then modifications like weighted mouses considered cheating as accuracy is a skill.
Edit: Added clarity.
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I think adding "mechanical" help is not cheating ... right up until the point where you're replacing player input with mechanical assistance.
A weighted mouse is not cheating, because you still need a player who can aim that mouse and pull the trigger (press the mouse button) at the correct time. An aimbot is cheating because you are no longer needing a player to aim the gun that shoots down the enemy ship.
I'm not much of a computer 'whiz,' but if the script the OP posted is designed to let you fire guns without having to actually press the fire button each time, then yes, it is cheating. Just as it would be cheating for me to employ a method to auto-spot an enemy ship whenever it moves into my line of sight. Technically, it's not doing anything that I couldn't do on my own, but it's removing the player element from the equation (i.e., I no longer have to actually aim my spyglass and spot the enemy) in a way that's patently over the line.
I don't blame people for looking for ways to improve their performance, but I think that running outside programs that remove player input doesn't quite fall under the spirit of competition.
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I think adding "mechanical" help is not cheating ... right up until the point where you're replacing player input with mechanical assistance.
A weighted mouse is not cheating, because you still need a player who can aim that mouse and pull the trigger (press the mouse button) at the correct time. An aimbot is cheating because you are no longer needing a player to aim the gun that shoots down the enemy ship.
I'm not much of a computer 'whiz,' but if the script the OP posted is designed to let you fire guns without having to actually press the fire button each time, then yes, it is cheating. Just as it would be cheating for me to employ a method to auto-spot an enemy ship whenever it moves into my line of sight. Technically, it's not doing anything that I couldn't do on my own, but it's removing the player element from the equation (i.e., I no longer have to actually aim my spyglass and spot the enemy) in a way that's patently over the line.
I don't blame people for looking for ways to improve their performance, but I think that running outside programs that remove player input doesn't quite fall under the spirit of competition.
For clairty: All the script does is change the motion from rapidly clicking to holding down the click button. You still need to time your shots and aim. It also puts the movement of clicking and holding to rebuild on par with rapidly clicking.
With a weighted mouse the physical vibration from clicking and hand movements are dulled, so it is replacing a percentage of user input.
My concerns are more to do with RSI (repetative strain injury) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury) which can result in permanent damage caused by repetitive muscular movement. Especially after people have been expressing a burning sensation from rapidly (excessive) clicking.
I really wish all weapons fired "full-auto" when you hold down the button, much as how tools were changed to work.
That said, there really should be no difference between holding down the button and rapidly clicking, when it comes to tools. And when I rapidly click with a weapon, occasionally I will get a "ghost fire" where it doesn't fire, but causes the weapon cooldown.
If there is a difference, it needs to be fixed in the game.
Agreed, this needs to be brought to Muses attention, the question is, is it a bug report or a suggestion?
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My Logitech Mx 5 is now 7 years old (almost as old as Sunderlands mouse) and it still does its job without any of those things.
I don't blame people for looking for ways to improve their performance, but I think that running outside programs that remove player input doesn't quite fall under the spirit of competition.
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I like that people look for advantages to get in games, but using methods outside of/not provided by the game itself isn't what I would call "equal and fair sportsmanship".
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Mechanical devices are just different interfaces. They all send generic HID data to your OS.
Razer Mice have drivers that can optionally enable post-hardware modification of that data. That is pretty identical to your script, and my feelings about it are similar.
I do feel that if you are clever enough to setup macros, you deserve to be able to use them, but I do think it's cheating. I'm conflicted about this point.
Personally I use a Razer High DPI mouse, but I turn the sensitivity down. Normally it translates every little move I make into giant sweeping arcs. I play with the settings on it a lot, but I don't feel it affords me much advantage over my other computer (old microsoft optical mouse, sensitivity maxed).
Different people like different interfaces and will have different hardware. The issue of cheating can't afford to be that pedantic. I think the bottom line is that it is really not difficult to discern when you are 'cheating'. In my mind cheating requires some kind of feedback. Aimbots generally search frame-data for a target. They pull data directly from the game to make decisions.
As others have said before me, as long as you have the human making decisions, the hardware is less important (within reason). The lines get blurred with things like key-macros (starcraft, etc). Bottom line: If you are doing something that people with common knowledge of computers and the game probably couldn't do, it might be time to think about stopping.
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I don't think it's cheating at all tbh. All it means is that you have to do a bit less clicking. And I'd like to highlight this:
My concerns are more to do with RSI (repetative strain injury) which can result in permanent damage caused by repetitive muscular movement. Especially after people have been expressing a burning sensation from rapidly (excessive) clicking.
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I agree with Sunderland. I raised this with Muse around the time of release after a few friends and I took issue with the constant clicking involved with engineering. I use a vertical mouse at work to prevent RSI as it started setting in a few years ago (thankfully it hasn't flared up since) but it's something I'm constantly aware of and will do anything to prevent as it's painful and debilitating as hell, not to mention it has the potential to endanger my favourite pasttime! I'm glad click and hold repair/rebuilding was implemented but it does annoy me that repeat clicking is still faster. This really shouldn't be the case. I've no real issue with the lack of auto-fire on turrets; I'm not sure it's that necessary as the only semi-automatic weapons in the game with decent clips that you're likely to jab the left mouse button repeatedly with is the Scylla and the Banshee, but even they aren't as constant as repairing, buffing and rebuilding can be. Look at something like NS2 for instance where nearly every sustained action is a click and hold: biting, spitting, swiping, shooting, welding, fixing, breathing etc.
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I agree that anything that requires repetitive clicking needs to become automatic, namely rebuilding and firing weapons. I really really don't want to lose a game because I had good strategy and technique but couldn't mash a button fast enough.
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Iunno about anyone else, but I take pride in my burned out index finger muscles due to massive spam clicking....that and when it comes down to engineering, I found out that spam clicking still works better than holding down (in the case of buffing and rebuilding that is) by maybe a few milliseconds, but that adds up.
Then at parties you can show off your uber buff index fingers and "wow" the crowd!
My left hand... is it a ring finger? to the left of the middle finger. Is still getting really sore from holding the A key down to turn my ship all the time... I guess I should save my keyboard and my fingers by not pressing down so hard all the time whenever something intense is going on :P
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As a panic engie. Yes this is a title.
It's where you forget you primary role until the last minuite where you then..... 'remember' and spam click everything until you are okay again. My index finger now looks like The Hulk's neck muscle and i am rpoud of that :)
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Also if people need to use these things to keep up with us then who am i to stop them evening the playing field ;)
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Pfft. Scripts are for noobs.
When faced with a problem, REAL men reach for the soldering iron. :P
http://www.instructables.com/id/Add-a-rapid-fire-button-to-your-mouse-using-a-555-/
14 clicks per second.
$20 project.
Like a boss. 8)
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A script is free and doesn't make your mouse look ugly 8)
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I thought this thread was dead, please make it so.
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Piemanlives uses his necromancer powers to resurrect this thread. Must be a good one...
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Spud, if you look on the previous page Omniraptor resurrected this...
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Don't hide your powers from me pieman!
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Actually, I'm requesting a lock of this thread, it's already gone further then its initial purpose and the conversation may as well just end up throwing it into the pit if we let it fester.
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I would rather see this move into the pit.
reason:
the options you can choose from are both against the idea. this will mean tha the actual opic was a action to oppose against the rapidfire request in the feedback and suggestion page. as for the purpose of this topic I say it should move to the pit or general discusion where you should give the option to the creator of this topic to give the other group who actually want the rapid fire option implemented a fair chance to make a statement. seeing that the creator of this topic has no intentions of the actual GoIo gameplay included in this one-sided discussion, I would suggest sending this to the pit.