Author Topic: Titles, who has them, and what they do.  (Read 73348 times)

Offline redria

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #105 on: April 25, 2014, 05:32:43 pm »
The fact that this is meant to be a part of the Muse competitive system is part of why I'm a bit hesitant to drop this.
Woah, wait, what? This is... pretty unrelated to Muse's system (which won't be around much longer). :P

Anyway, if you guys sorted it out all is well. ^.^

The opt-in vs opt-out concern is certainly valid. Since we have pretty much made up the rules on this as we went (and I didn't even help make the titles in the first place) we've just treated it as casual. More fun to let the titles move fluidly than to make them bitterly contested. :D

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #106 on: April 25, 2014, 05:45:45 pm »
There are two options

1. Strict rules on what counts as scrim and suddenly no one will play (what we were doing at the beginning of titles)
2. Lax rules where titles have high mobility.


I initially preferred the former, especially after everyone took the titles from the ducks during various practices, however I quickly realized that the high mobility is fun. Let the titles bounce around and have fun with them. Its better for titles to move around instead of having one team jealously guarding them.

Offline AbbyTheRat

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2014, 05:58:04 pm »
Third Option, allow for scrims to be both. Let teams pick if the scrim will have titles change hand or not.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2014, 06:00:28 pm »
Nope, that was option 1.


And no one would play for titles because a huge deal was made about them.

Offline Velvet

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #109 on: April 25, 2014, 07:03:59 pm »
redria, this is my reason for believing this was a part of the Muse competitive system.
excerpt from OP of this thread, posted by Muse employee:
Quote
As per the wishes of Squash and the ducks, we're bringing the titles into the full ruleset for competitive, and making a new thread so that all questions about them will go here, and he won't have to deal with them. Down to business!

Although it's true that with their system essentially defunct and no Muse involvement in maintenance of titles, those rules are no longer particularly relevant or binding. I just assumed they'd remain in force with no clearcut policy in place to replace them. That said, it's clear that the consensus on what the rules are is against that assumption - that acknowledged I am now simply arguing for what I think they should be.

Quote from: Sammy B. T.
1. Strict rules on what counts as scrim and suddenly no one will play (what we were doing at the beginning of titles)
I don't at all see that an opt-in system is a strict ruleset or that it would stop teams from allowing transfer of titles. For example I have every intention of agreeing with BFS that some of our scrim matches can have titles at stake. Ultimately it won't bother me too much if my clan loses titles while experimenting during practices but I think it would be nicer to be able to draw a distinction between when a scrim is a practice or a competition.

I suppose it is true that titles will be more mobile if all scrims count and that does stop teams from hoarding titles - although to do that they'd have to avoid competing in tournaments, too. However I don't think titles changing hands regularly is inherently a good thing - while total stagnation is bad, I'd rather see fewer, more hotly contested title transfers than regular and rather meaningless ones.

The primary benefit of the titles is, as I see it, to add some excitement and put something extra at stake in otherwise uninteresting matches, as well as giving clans a badge of honour as they have a (questionable) claim at being the best players on that map. That works perfectly in scrims where the teams have agreed it will be a title fight - you get an intense match because the teams are a little more invested as their pride is on the line, with a somewhat tangible result in that the title could publicly change hands. But if there's no specific agreement, you get a situation where every scrim is a title fight, and is therefore taken seriously to the detriment of casual play, experimentation & practices, or every scrim is a title fight so titles change hands too often, too easily and therefore don't really matter to anyone (current situation).

I think your claim that there would be few title fights is most likely correct. But that's more because of a broader stagnation of the competitive scene  - in particular scrims, which are much less respected than tournaments as competitive events - than anything else. And the solution to that is not, in my eyes, to force competitive and practice scrims to be the same thing.

However I can see the appeal of keeping the titles casual rather than particularly competitive. I guess we have tournaments for serious matches, if people prefer to keep it that way there's no harm if titles are a bit of unimportant fun on the side.

Offline AbbyTheRat

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #110 on: April 25, 2014, 07:13:16 pm »
your option 1 was strict rules..

I'm saying that scrim should be what the team agrees with each other, not strict rules. Option 3 is Scrim don't have to follow any strict rules just whatever rules the team want to encourage for that match. I was going to say enforce but I think encourage is a better phasing

Offline Velvet

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #111 on: May 03, 2014, 12:10:57 pm »
Any reason this thread isn't stickied?

Offline redria

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #112 on: May 03, 2014, 12:17:30 pm »
Actually we may need to just make a new thread with updated rules and such if Morbie isn't taking care of it :P

(and get that stickied)

Offline Urz

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #113 on: May 03, 2014, 12:21:02 pm »
I requested the thread be unstickied recently, as it seems unreasonable for a side contest between some groups to hold permanent precedence over actual organized events.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #114 on: May 03, 2014, 11:43:49 pm »
Well I believe that is a mistake. The Flotsam Dynasty Campaign was an "actual organized event," and the title system can apply to any group in functionally any event therefore it makes sense for it to be stickied at the top.

Offline Morblitz

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #115 on: May 03, 2014, 11:46:48 pm »
Why not? They don't impact the larger scheme of organised events, and people seemed to be enjoying having tangible things that can be passed around from clan to clan, and it's not limited just to people who win events - titles are vulnerable ALL the time, which is exciting! Besides, events don't often give out rewards, and this is something that players can actually hold on to, to show that they've earned it. It gives people something else to fight for when its outside of organised events.

It's also a Muse sanctioned community activity, and I don't think they unsanctioned it. Seriously, what's the harm?
I mean, if people want, it can be developed to be a bit more structure if people feel it's too loose at the moment. But it's not really impacting on anything at all.

It isn't only available to "some" groups, it's available to everyone who wishes to be involved. That's what I feel is great about it.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 12:16:37 am by Morblitz »

Offline Urz

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #116 on: May 04, 2014, 01:35:38 am »
Stickies should be reserved for maintaining the visibility of important topics which are also at risk of being buried for low post counts (eg tournament info or signups threads).

Much like the tipping threads, if players continue to participate in titles, the thread will stay near the top on it's own merit.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #117 on: May 04, 2014, 01:49:10 am »
Who's to say what's an important topic?  Clearly this is important to some people. I hardly see a problem with this being stickied.

Actually to me it seems precisely the type of thing to be stickied since it's a sub event that's always ongoing. Keeping it stickied makes it visible to new players and clans new to the competitive scene.

Offline Urz

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #118 on: May 04, 2014, 02:23:01 am »
Who's to say what's an important topic?  Clearly this is important to some people. I hardly see a problem with this being stickied.
If every thread that was "important to some people" was stickied, we would have a full screen of them.

As I said in my previous post, stickies should be reserved for (this is my opinion) threads that are both important and need their visibility maintained. The importance of titles could be debated, but as a normal thread it's visibility will be determined by continued participation in the title system. That seems pretty fair to me.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 02:27:25 am by Urz »

Offline Keyvias

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Re: Titles, who has them, and what they do.
« Reply #119 on: May 04, 2014, 03:56:00 am »
Hey Guys,

This looks like a hotly debated topic, but I'll be honest it's 3 am on a Saturday for me so I won't be able to give this the full attention it deserves.

I'm going to leave it stickied as of this moment, this may be changed in the future, but since there are not a lot of stickied events at the moment I don't believe it will cause too much confusion or annoyance.
I do have a couple of questions for when I check out this topic tomorrow.

How often do title fights currently happen?
When was the last time someone challenged for one?
When was the last time one of them changed hands?
As a clan do you want to take part in something like this?