Author Topic: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.  (Read 69011 times)

Offline Shinkurex

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2013, 09:01:40 am »
All of this arguing is pointless... let's either take this to the pit, or try to help some of the newbies out

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,245.msg2807.html#new

Since this argument has essentially gone full circle, I recommend that we lock this thread, and continue it in the pit if you so want.... Is this acceptable Aythreuk?

Offline Aythreuk

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2013, 06:04:56 pm »
All of this arguing is pointless... let's either take this to the pit, or try to help some of the newbies out

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,245.msg2807.html#new

Since this argument has essentially gone full circle, I recommend that we lock this thread, and continue it in the pit if you so want.... Is this acceptable Aythreuk?

You guys can do what you will. I don't really need to say anything else.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2013, 06:11:45 pm »
Then why do you keep posting? If anything that hurts your argument.

Offline Helmic

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2013, 02:15:29 am »
I'm going to ignore Aythreuk's arguments here and just pretend I'm the OP of this thread.

What's been said in this thread against Aythreuk can apply to any other game, but as this game has such a low population team stacking has a more pronounced effect.  Oftentimes a teamstacked game is the ONLY game with any people in it and slots still open, there are not enough games for people to just leave and join a new one.  When things go bad on the losing side of a teamstacked game, you're not just getting angry by yourself, there's people there blaming others for the loss (typically the poor sod who took Captain to get the game going).

This is a small community.  Games with small communities do not survive without certain key players acting as leaders for that community.  I'm not talking about moderators or CA's or any of that nonsense, I mean anyone who would consider themselves a "veteran" at all needs to be able to fill that role in such a small group.  If that core group is perceived as hostile, it will not grow and could eventually cause the game to die out.  I've seen this happen on other games I've played and it pisses me off tremendously every time.

I'm not pissed, however, because this game has an exceptionally welcoming community for the most part.  Unlike other truly team-based games like DOTA-likes, there is a clear leader role that can function very well even with inexperienced teammates so long he acts as a leader and his teammates are willing to cooperate.  If you're NOT friendly towards your crew in this game, you will suck horribly, ragequit, and thereby remove yourself from the community.  I really think the game is small because of its bugginess negatively impacting its metacritic score and pissing off new players.

However, a portion of the community that doens't fall into the exceptionally welcoming category will often bitch (or joke, still bad) about preferring AI teammates to real ones or that their crew is just bad even though they're trying.  I can tell you right now that if you think you'd be better off with AI than a "bad" crew that's trying and listening, I will take them and I will kick your ass with them, I have never had a human player that listened to me (even if he's stayed silent) function worse than an AI.  Seriously, that AI comment, even jokingly, has caused quite a few ragequits in my short time here, if you actually care about the community cut that out.

For those of you who had a knack for the game early on, going against a stacked team does not equate to a learning experience for anyone.  An intelligent teammate coaching you is going to do you worlds better than finding it out for yourself, it's pretty much why I'm doing well right now despite my relative inexperience.  A flat-out curbstomp will not educate someone like a near loss will, oddly enough most people dislike being beaten mercilessly and are not going to devote non-fun time to reading the manual when it's smarter to just play another game in the bundle.  It's just time management on their part.  That does not mean we should just resign to being a niche game, this game does not have to remain niche.  All of my friends who've played the game with me have had a blast on my ship, they can learn the mechanics and gameplay just fine (even though it'd be better if sandbox had more direction in it so it could function as a proper tutorial), it's when there's no hope for victory that they decide to stop playing until I get on.  Not everyone wants to be the best, nor should that attitude be a requirement to enjoy the game.  Low-skill matches have their place too.

That brings me back to the point about the size of the community, though.  In a larger community it's fairly easy to find another game without pubstompers, here not so much.  The part of the community that's really good at the game is constantly rubbing elbows with those that aren't, and it's up to those experienced players to make that elbow rubbing as enjoyable as possible for both parties.  Muse and moderators and CA's can help with mechanics and good common sense moderation, but that can only do so much.  Saying that it's not your responsibilty doesn't change that the game will grow smaller if you don't help the game, there isn't enough people here to pass that responsibility onto someone else.

Phoebe made a very excellent post about the "advice" some captains give their new players, don't assume everyone has Aspergers and wants to know absolutely everything about this game at once.  I'm actually interested in making a guide on how to teach new players quickly and efficiently while entertaining everyone involved, Phoebe if you have some spare time do you working together on that?

I know no good captain wants to abandon the crew that's served them so loyally, but I know for a fact Candlehax would betray a fellow captain for a Klondike bar.  As soon as a game goes 5-0, switch sides and bring your crew with you.  If you can't get everyone, leave behind the understanding crewmate and add him to FL, or try to con him into captaining the other ship and coaching him.  You're already hooked on this game, you can handle a loss here and there.  I do this whenever possible myself and I highly encourage everyone else here to do the same, don't wait for the other side to ask.

Again, I'm really impressed by this community in general, it's just that you're being a bit too quick to provide an excuse for the teamstacking rather than being proactive about a solution.  I know the OP was a bit accusatory so of course that stuff's going to be brought up, but that doesn't mean we can't take matters into our own hands to fix it anyways.  Trust me, you'll still be having plenty of fun.

Offline Latrew

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2013, 03:53:24 am »
We've somehow managed to win 3 times yesterday, two times teams were somewhat balanced (well, only few enemy guys had small lvl advantage), but third time whole 5-4 lvl  enemy crew joined the party. That's very different from when two fully 8level packed crews stand up against you, but still, we're terrified, willing to run away like flock of sheep.
The only question was...

WHAT WOULD GENERAL LEE DO?

2nd level crews against 5th. We weree smashed to pieces. Depressing defeat.

That's the point when you usually quit. However. Once again.

WHAT WOULD GENERAL LEE DO?

By establishing simple communication between our ally and us. By having faith in our only crewmate, that wasn't in skype with us (rad guy, tho i forgot his name because of hangover). By focusing on superior enemy crew, shouting out "f-word" (oh, god, i love f-word), arguing with each other and singing battle hymn of the republic (no consistency, i know), we've had a legendary victory over superior enemy forces (every our victory is legendary, because, in fact it happens once in millenia).

Victory is always possible, but who've said that there is no fun in defeat? You kids are too casual these days.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 04:02:38 am by Latrew »

Offline Helmic

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2013, 05:59:23 am »
I don't disagree that losing is fun, but I'm also aware that it's an unusual attitude and don't expect the majority of new players to share it.  If you're really concerned about new players getting better, get on their team and coach them so they wreck your captain buddy.  I mean, you can't have fun losing if you're on the winning team, now can you?

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2013, 08:36:35 am »
Great post, Latrew, that's the type of attitude that'll get you far in this game.

And Helmic, I think you put it a lot better than Aythreuk. I still think that losing against guys like Captain Roy, MasX and Firestone always helped me when I was a new player, but I can see how others wouldn't share that sentiment. I'm always up for helping a team that's really struggling, and I love giving advice to people who are willing to hear it. There's just a problem with a large number of players who think of this as your run of the mill FPS, where you don't need to listen to what people tell you to do and run more or less solo. These people are the ones that won't learn no matter how hard you try.

So the two problems are experienced players who don't even try to help rookies, and new players who don't seem to give a crap.

Offline Helmic

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2013, 05:05:30 pm »
Yeah, those that come into the game expecting a steampunk FPS are going to be disappointed no matter what, although that doesn't mean they still can't be pleasantly surprised by the game once they understand.  You have to read the game description to understand that the game is uniquely team-centric, the trailers put all the emphasis on the airships themselves.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2013, 05:18:05 pm »
Yeah, those that come into the game expecting a steampunk FPS are going to be disappointed no matter what, although that doesn't mean they still can't be pleasantly surprised by the game once they understand.  You have to read the game description to understand that the game is uniquely team-centric, the trailers put all the emphasis on the airships themselves.

I really hate it when people buy games without knowing what they're about at all. I remember reading somebody asking on the Steam Discussions for Portal 2 "When do you get a real gun in this game?"

Offline Helmic

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2013, 05:26:33 pm »
Yeah, those that come into the game expecting a steampunk FPS are going to be disappointed no matter what, although that doesn't mean they still can't be pleasantly surprised by the game once they understand.  You have to read the game description to understand that the game is uniquely team-centric, the trailers put all the emphasis on the airships themselves.

I really hate it when people buy games without knowing what they're about at all. I remember reading somebody asking on the Steam Discussions for Portal 2 "When do you get a real gun in this game?"

I honestly spent the entirety of the original Portal wondering when the tutorial was going to end.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2013, 05:43:40 pm »
I honestly spent the entirety of the original Portal wondering when the tutorial was going to end.

That's hilarious XD

Now that I look back, it was a bit like a tutorial.

Offline Phoebe

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2013, 05:46:21 pm »


I honestly spent the entirety of the original Portal wondering when the tutorial was going to end.

I had a lot of trouble already very early in; you just made me feel awfully stupid :(

Offline Helmic

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2013, 05:47:45 pm »
I honestly spent the entirety of the original Portal wondering when the tutorial was going to end.

That's hilarious XD

Now that I look back, it was a bit like a tutorial.

In Valve's own words, both Portals ARE entirely tutorials.  At the time I had only played games that stopped "teaching" you  new things after a certain point, or only brought up a new concept once in a blue moon.  I really love that approach, teaching the player to play through the gameplay, making everything a tutorial without making it not fun.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2013, 05:49:25 pm »
I had a lot of trouble already very early in; you just made me feel awfully stupid :(

You're not alone. I had trouble grasping the concept of portals at first.

As long as we're talking about Portal, GoIO just dethroned Portal 2 as my most played game on steam. 192 hours vs. 184, I think.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2013, 05:51:28 pm »
In Valve's own words, both Portals ARE entirely tutorials.  At the time I had only played games that stopped "teaching" you  new things after a certain point, or only brought up a new concept once in a blue moon.  I really love that approach, teaching the player to play through the gameplay, making everything a tutorial without making it not fun.

Leave it to Valve to make something like that work! I swear, Portal is the only game that's made me care for an inanimate object. Those guys are just too good at game design.