Guns Of Icarus Online
Off-Topic => The Pit => Topic started by: Aythreuk on March 05, 2013, 08:44:48 pm
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Hello.
Some of you may be aware that "Guns of Icarus Online" was basically the featured game of Indie Royales latest bundle.
Which, as of posting this had sold 11,112 bundles. That's 11,112 new players coming into Guns of Icarus this week and at least trying it out.
http://www.indieroyale.com/
You can see the exact sales numbers on that link for the next 2 days of posting this at least, after that the bundle will be off sale and you probably won't be able to see the sales statistics. It's the "Mash Bundle"
Usually, there is maybe.. what? 100-200 players online at some of the games busier times. So you might ask yourself, where is this flock of players who were probably playing Guns of Icarus for the first time at some point this week. Where did they go?
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=130962903
This is what you did to them. Guess where they went? To play the other games in their bundle.
This game could of potentially received a healthy boost to it's playerbase this week, but it didn't due to these kind of team stacks.
If you try to tell me team stacking isn't common in this game, while I can't provide evidence of that (not sure how I would anyway, conduct a huge survey?), I will just laugh at you.
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I'll admit that I often play on a stacked side, since I generally like to fly with the people I know and have met through the game, and I have been more or less flying with since I bought it. For me it's enjoyable to socialize and chat while flying through the skies and vanquishing foes. That being said I usually don't mind evening out teams if asked. It often only takes two ships switching, with one going up and one going down to balance out experience levels and I'm always happy to do that.
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I'll admit that I often play on a stacked side, since I generally like to fly with the people I know and have met through the game, and I have been more or less flying with since I bought it. For me it's enjoyable to socialize and chat while flying through the skies and vanquishing foes. That being said I usually don't mind evening out teams if asked. It often only takes two ships switching, with one going up and one going down to balance out experience levels and I'm always happy to do that.
I'm glad to hear that . . . kind of?
Usually I would say something and be ignored as the blatantly and shamelessly stacked team continues to blabber among themselves.
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Yeah, I can't speak for everyone in the game but I find most people easygoing and agreeable. That being said I really learned a lot by flying against all those stacked teams that I flew against when I started. I had a lot of losses flying in those games but it definitely made me better. I can't tell you how proud I was the first time I made Firestone rage quit.
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Yeah, I can't speak for everyone in the game but I find most people easygoing and agreeable. That being said I really learned a lot by flying against all those stacked teams that I flew against when I started. I had a lot of losses flying in those games but it definitely made me better. I can't tell you how proud I was the first time I made Firestone rage quit.
I would say you could learn a lot more in balanced teams because then you have experienced people on your team and you can see what they're actually doing on board. You can't see what the enemy is doing on board.
That and you know, balanced teams would make people want to actually play the game.
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I cannot speak for everyone unfortunately, but I do attempt to help educate newcomers whenever they ask questions... even if I'm on the opposite team... you can learn a lot from playing with those high level players, I will not argue with that... it's true.... Will you always (and I mean always) commit to crew with newcomers when you are a high level?
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Problem is you just missed the fact they won 5-4 against us in a very good match.
Posts like this are why the community isnt that big. No one is forcing you to press the ready button. The title of the match is not "New player game!" Is it some kind of sin to play with friends? Should the game be full of people who arent "Fans?" You have to learn the game. And in this age of FPS's, no one really seems to want to except the "fans." We tirelessly train new people who are willing to learn, who communicate, and accept advice instead of charging head first into 2 ships and wonders why they die. Stacked teams is a poor excuse for not learning from defeats. It certainly didnt happen for me overnight. But I never claimed all the high levels were either targeting me, or forcing me to leave.
Just because 11k people bought the bundle does not mean they bought it for GOIO either, so claiming that we as huge fans and regular players of the game are somehow responsible for the player count diminishing is pretty insulting. I dont care if you disagree with me, and I probably sound like a horrible person right now, but whining about stacked teams will not make you a better GOIO player. Wins will not be handed over to you so you can feel some fake sense of accomplishment. You earn them like every other player, new and old has.
Heck, join my ship, follow orders, and Ill teach you something. I speak for myself and my friends when i say we do not "Stack teams" to steamroll over new players. What fun is that? The real wins are when the score is close, and youre playing your tail off to gain a victory.
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Ugh, I just spent forever writing a reply on my phone, and then I lost the Wi-Fi -_-
Anyways, when I was new to the game, I got better by searching for stacked teams and intentionally playing against them.
Zill, you're getting a salute for that post.
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Hold the phone. We all appreciate what you're saying, and we all had to start at level 1, knowing nothing about how the game works, and dealing with stacked teams. It's obvious the game has retention problems and this is a big cause. But having said that:
You don't get to dictate how we enjoy a game. If you want to level this accusation on CA's that's one thing, but the rest of us are still just playing a game, we don't have some kind of social responsibility past that. Most people I know help new people learn to play, but what you're talking about goes to a level beyond that.
For instance, while I love teaching one or two new players, being on a ship of entirely new players is the pits, and I endeavor to avoid that.
Also, I mean, come on. Firestone's on blue team. That's gotta at least cancel out Zill.
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Ummm. Less players? The week before the purchase there was 17 to 30 players waiting on the busiest times when I played. Now there is usually over 1 hundred. I'd say MORE players my friend.
Stacked teams is either usually two things. One: you jumped into a clan match where a trained and experienced clan is practicing (sometimes against another clan). Or two: the culmination of ol' pals slowly getting on and joining games. Experienced players stack teams not because they want to crush all oncomers (what fun is that, it's the close hard won victories that are the sweetest), we stack 'cause we know each other, want to play with each other, and have a blast doing it (literally).
One factor that will help with stacking is mics. If you get GOIO I HIGHLY advise you purchase a mic. You'll be MUCH better and the game is just loads of fun. I played a game today with three guys I'd never met, all three relatively new. They had mics and IT. WAS. A. BLAST. I honestly had some of the best games today. :) I like to join teams and crews with mics, cause it's just fun to talk to people.
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Yeah, mics are important. If you have one, you instantly gain a good deal of credibility and are able to communicate better. It's hard to get to be successful without a mic, and I say that from firsthand experience.
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Posts like this are why the community isnt that big.
Please provide evidence and explain.
Problem is you just missed the fact they won 5-4 against us in a very good match.
That definitely isn't normal, not sure why you would post that.
No one is forcing you to press the ready button. The title of the match is not "New player game!"
Quite often there will only be two-three matches up at all. And when one of those is Asian and another is European, my options are very limited. Me and my friend actually did what you said a few times this week. We didn't hit the ready button, had to just go play something else.
Stacked teams is a poor excuse for not learning from defeats.
Quote the part where I don't learn from my defeats.
Just because 11k people bought the bundle does not mean they bought it for GOIO either
I knew this point would come up, feel free to knock off a few thousand from that number, it doesn't really affect it that much.
but whining about stacked teams will not make you a better GOIO player.
You can say that I was whining, you're clearly going to say what you want regardless. I'd like to believe I was simply informing you of the reasons why your community is small and didn't grow at all much in that huge sale.
I knew posting here would bring about these kinds of responses, due to the fact that only veterens will search the forums, and veterans probably don't like having their attention brought to these facts. Basically, my thread was doomed from the beginning.
Maybe I'm illogical.
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Ummm. Less players? The week before the purchase there was 17 to 30 players waiting on the busiest times when I played. Now there is usually over 1 hundred. I'd say MORE players my friend.
Stacked teams is either usually two things. One: you jumped into a clan match where a trained and experienced clan is practicing (sometimes against another clan). Or two: the culmination of ol' pals slowly getting on and joining games. Experienced players stack teams not because they want to crush all oncomers (what fun is that, it's the close hard won victories that are the sweetest), we stack 'cause we know each other, want to play with each other, and have a blast doing it (literally).
One factor that will help with stacking is mics. If you get GOIO I HIGHLY advise you purchase a mic. You'll be MUCH better and the game is just loads of fun. I played a game today with three guys I'd never met, all three relatively new. They had mics and IT. WAS. A. BLAST. I honestly had some of the best games today. :) I like to join teams and crews with mics, cause it's just fun to talk to people.
This may surprise you, but playing against your pals is actually still a form of playing with them.
There are clans that all stack up in a public game and just sit there waiting for... anybody? No comment.
Clan vs clan practice? Game passwords.
Next please.
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You can say that I was whining, you're clearly going to say what you want regardless. I'd like to believe I was simply informing you of the reasons why your community is small and didn't grow at all much in that huge sale.
I'm sorry, but you're in no position to judge the growth of the community. It wasn't that long ago that I was getting seriously worried about the size of the game's community. The recent influx of players from various promotions has reignited the game. I hadn't seen 300 players online since... Well... When the game launched in October.
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This may surprise you, but playing against your pals is actually still a form of playing with them.
There are clans that all stack up in a public game and just sit there waiting for... anybody? No comment.
Clan vs clan practice? Game passwords.
Next please.
If a clan is practicing for an upcoming tournament, they're going want all their players on the same team. They're preparing strategy and teamwork and all that, and battling against themselves won't do anything to help that.
As for clan vs. clan matches, if they aren't private, that's because they know there'll be open spots and want them to be filled. Why would that matter, anyways? The teams will probably be balanced regardless.
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http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/
Aythreuk, I'd like to draw your attention to #1 and #4.
Every time an experienced player takes a newbie under his wing, and teaches him how to play, that's a kindness. Every time a player on a winning team switches to a losing team to balance the teams, that's a kindness. Demanding that players always behave this way ignoring all other circumstances, which include
-Playing with friends
-Playing with teammates
-Playing with vocal partners
-Playing with people you know are cooperative and helpful
is just wrong. The strength of this community is that experienced players frequently provide kindnesses to those who are just beginning or on the wrong side of the battle, but demanding that the kindness becomes a law is absurd. In fairness though, you aren't doing that. You're just blaming literally everyone for an abstract vaguery.
Good day sir.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsv5vs261V1qai3bfo1_400.gif)
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Squash gets a salute for that.
I like helping new players. If the other team if getting smacked really badly, I'll be one of the first ones to say "Okay guys, I'll lend those people a hand". But sometimes I just want to play with people I know. Simple as that.
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Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on Today at 09:30:19 pm
Posts like this are why the community isnt that big.
Please provide evidence and explain.
Because anyone with your mindset will be doing the same thing, posting on the forums, claiming regular players are killing the game somehow, instead of actually playing the game.
Problem is you just missed the fact they won 5-4 against us in a very good match.
That definitely isn't normal, not sure why you would post that.
Because you decided to post our match as an example. They won because they learned, changed strategies, and beat us. Not come onto the forum and point fingers at the loyal fanbase of GOIO.
No one is forcing you to press the ready button. The title of the match is not "New player game!"
Quite often there will only be two-three matches up at all. And when one of those is Asian and another is European, my options are very limited. Me and my friend actually did what you said a few times this week. We didn't hit the ready button, had to just go play something else.
Good. And just because a server is not located in your area does not make it unplayable. I play on Euro and Asian servers all the time. While only US servers would be nice, its not always feasible.
Stacked teams is a poor excuse for not learning from defeats.
Quote the part where I don't learn from my defeats.
The moment you logged onto the servers and posted this thread instead of playing the game.
Just because 11k people bought the bundle does not mean they bought it for GOIO either
I knew this point would come up, feel free to knock off a few thousand from that number, it doesn't really affect it that much.
I would be tickled to death if 9k people bought that bundle for GOIO. The sale before this, with only GOIO on sale, only got us ~1k. Thats not all in one region either, so its spread out.
but whining about stacked teams will not make you a better GOIO player.
You can say that I was whining, you're clearly going to say what you want regardless. I'd like to believe I was simply informing you of the reasons why your community is small and didn't grow at all much in that huge sale.
You would of been worried then if you think this is somehow low. We could barely scrape together one match at non-peak hours. The community has grown quite nicely despite your reasons for believing it hasnt.
I knew posting here would bring about these kinds of responses, due to the fact that only veterens will search the forums, and veterans probably don't like having their attention brought to these facts. Basically, my thread was doomed from the beginning.
Maybe I'm illogical.
We invite everyone to the forums. Ive met plenty of new players through this medium. Not everyone wants or cares to look at forums and participate in the comunity in a bigger way. To think all your posts are useless is illogical. However, it is also illogical to think the loyal fanbase will not give its opinion when falsely accused of hanging new players by their necks just to shrink a community.
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You can say that I was whining, you're clearly going to say what you want regardless. I'd like to believe I was simply informing you of the reasons why your community is small and didn't grow at all much in that huge sale.
I'm sorry, but you're in no position to judge the growth of the community. It wasn't that long ago that I was getting seriously worried about the size of the game's community. The recent influx of players from various promotions has reignited the game. I hadn't seen 300 players online since... Well... When the game launched in October.
I'm allowed to have any opinion I like actually. Unless you wish to exercise your powers as a moderator and silence my opinion.
My opinion, at its core is that this community could of benefited more from the big sales if the veterans didn't stack together constantly. Problem?
http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/
Aythreuk, I'd like to draw your attention to #1 and #4.
Every time an experienced player takes a newbie under his wing, and teaches him how to play, that's a kindness. Every time a player on a winning team switches to a losing team to balance the teams, that's a kindness. Demanding that players always behave this way ignoring all other circumstances, which include
-Playing with friends
-Playing with teammates
-Playing with vocal partners
-Playing with people you know are cooperative and helpful
is just wrong. The strength of this community is that experienced players frequently provide kindnesses to those who are just beginning or on the wrong side of the battle, but demanding that the kindness becomes a law is absurd. In fairness though, you aren't doing that. You're just blaming literally everyone for an abstract vaguery.
Good day sir.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsv5vs261V1qai3bfo1_400.gif)
Go ahead, keep stacking. I'm not "demanding" that you guys stop stacking. rofl, I'm just gonna play other things. Thought you'd like to know what you're doing wrong though.
This may surprise you, but playing against your pals is actually still a form of playing with them.
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I'm allowed to have any opinion I like actually. Unless you wish to exercise your powers as a moderator and silence my opinion.
My opinion, at its core is that this community could of benefited more from the big sales if the veterans didn't stack together constantly. Problem?
I never said that you didn't have the right to an opinion. That's just misquoting for the sake of misquoting. I said that you are not informed enough to understand the growth that the community has seen recently. Nothing to do with opinions.
And please don't suggest out of nowhere that I would censor what you say. That would be against the mod rules, and would be plainly stupid. I don't even have mod powers in this section.
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I'm allowed to have any opinion I like actually. Unless you wish to exercise your powers as a moderator and silence my opinion.
My opinion, at its core is that this community could of benefited more from the big sales if the veterans didn't stack together constantly. Problem?
I never said that you didn't have the right to an opinion. That's just misquoting for the sake of misquoting. I said that you are not informed enough to understand the growth that the community has seen recently. Nothing to do with opinions.
And please don't suggest out of nowhere that I would censor what you say. That would be against the mod rules, and would be plainly stupid. I don't even have mod powers in this section.
Thank you very much. Then I will continue to have my opinion about the community and judge it freely.
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Yeah, and we'll continue to disagree with it. That's the way it is.
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I'm allowed to have any opinion I like actually. Unless you wish to exercise your powers as a moderator and silence my opinion.
My opinion, at its core is that this community could of benefited more from the big sales if the veterans didn't stack together constantly. Problem?
Alright... Nobody is telling you to stop voicing your opinion, but don't expect us to withhold our own...
Go ahead, keep stacking. I'm not "demanding" that you guys stop stacking. rofl, I'm just gonna play other things. Thought you'd like to know what you're doing wrong though.
this entire thread could've been avoided if you had. The fact that you are still posting here is that you like the game, and care about the community. we do too. This post was just to incite drama, and I'm sorry, but I've been through high school once... I don't want to do it again. Yes you can say that me posting here is inviting drama, but I figure I would get my two cents in.
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Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on Today at 09:30:19 pm
Posts like this are why the community isnt that big.
Please provide evidence and explain.
Because anyone with your mindset will be doing the same thing, posting on the forums, claiming regular players are killing the game somehow, instead of actually playing the game.
Basically what you're saying here is ~ Players voicing their opinions on the forum (I'll admit, perhaps unfavourable ones) is bad
Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on Today at 09:30:19 pm
Posts like this are why the community isnt that big.
Please provide evidence and explain.
Because anyone with your mindset will be doing the same thing, posting on the forums, claiming regular players are killing the game somehow, instead of actually playing the game.
Problem is you just missed the fact they won 5-4 against us in a very good match.
That definitely isn't normal, not sure why you would post that.
Because you decided to post our match as an example. They won because they learned, changed strategies, and beat us. Not come onto the forum and point fingers at the loyal fanbase of GOIO.
I can see their loyalty very clearly here, no need to mention it. You say I point fingers. Okay. Yes, I think they stack most of the time, I'll admit, not 100% of the time. Are you saying they don't regularly stack teams? Wake up
Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on Today at 09:30:19 pm
Posts like this are why the community isnt that big.
Please provide evidence and explain.
Because anyone with your mindset will be doing the same thing, posting on the forums, claiming regular players are killing the game somehow, instead of actually playing the game.
Problem is you just missed the fact they won 5-4 against us in a very good match.
That definitely isn't normal, not sure why you would post that.
Because you decided to post our match as an example. They won because they learned, changed strategies, and beat us. Not come onto the forum and point fingers at the loyal fanbase of GOIO.
No one is forcing you to press the ready button. The title of the match is not "New player game!"
Quite often there will only be two-three matches up at all. And when one of those is Asian and another is European, my options are very limited. Me and my friend actually did what you said a few times this week. We didn't hit the ready button, had to just go play something else.
Good. And just because a server is not located in your area does not make it unplayable. I play on Euro and Asian servers all the time. While only US servers would be nice, its not always feasible.
I played on a European server once. I was the captain and my crew all spoke some European language. Thanks but no thanks. You could say practically anything is "playable", it doesn't really say much.
Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on Today at 09:30:19 pm
Posts like this are why the community isnt that big.
Please provide evidence and explain.
Because anyone with your mindset will be doing the same thing, posting on the forums, claiming regular players are killing the game somehow, instead of actually playing the game.
Problem is you just missed the fact they won 5-4 against us in a very good match.
That definitely isn't normal, not sure why you would post that.
Because you decided to post our match as an example. They won because they learned, changed strategies, and beat us. Not come onto the forum and point fingers at the loyal fanbase of GOIO.
No one is forcing you to press the ready button. The title of the match is not "New player game!"
Quite often there will only be two-three matches up at all. And when one of those is Asian and another is European, my options are very limited. Me and my friend actually did what you said a few times this week. We didn't hit the ready button, had to just go play something else.
Good. And just because a server is not located in your area does not make it unplayable. I play on Euro and Asian servers all the time. While only US servers would be nice, its not always feasible.
Stacked teams is a poor excuse for not learning from defeats.
Quote the part where I don't learn from my defeats.
The moment you logged onto the servers and posted this thread instead of playing the game.
Basically, the moment I spoke my opinion and stopped playing your glorious game.
C'mon, you're just being ridiculous now.
You are typing a lot, but saying very little.
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You are typing a lot, but saying very little.
The feeling is mutual.
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So you can express your opinion, but if we express ours then you complain about us not wanting you to express yours? This is the Internet. People will disagree with you.
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I'm allowed to have any opinion I like actually. Unless you wish to exercise your powers as a moderator and silence my opinion.
My opinion, at its core is that this community could of benefited more from the big sales if the veterans didn't stack together constantly. Problem?
Alright... Nobody is telling you to stop voicing your opinion, but don't expect us to withhold our own...
Go ahead, keep stacking. I'm not "demanding" that you guys stop stacking. rofl, I'm just gonna play other things. Thought you'd like to know what you're doing wrong though.
this entire thread could've been avoided if you had. The fact that you are still posting here is that you like the game, and care about the community. we do too. This post was just to incite drama, and I'm sorry, but I've been through high school once... I don't want to do it again. Yes you can say that me posting here is inviting drama, but I figure I would get my two cents in.
Logic and statistics incite drama. Okay, if you say so.
I guess you could call it drama if you want, I'd call it controversy. (and I'm being generous there, there are other things I'd like to call it)
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The fact that you are still posting here is that you like the game, and care about the community.
Most interesting thing said by anyone in this thread. Actually as it just so happens, I do quite like the game, I think it's pretty good. So there you have it.
Also, I respect the fact the moderator won't lock the thread/ban me/give me a warning or anything. I've seen some pretty controlling mods before and some pretty censored forums.
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Good posts, Aythreuk. Think I'll salute you.
I like the game. It's fun. But you know what's NOT fun? Losing against a stacked team, going 0-5 in a really quick, really unbalanced game, after waiting forever for the many empty spots on my team to fill up...while the opposing team stayed full...because everyone wants to be on the stacked, winning team. Could've played sooner, had a more challenging game (for both sides), if even a few of the stacked-team members would've trickled over to my team. Maybe they were all friends? That's cool. Friends don't like to compete against each other SOMEtimes? Maybe they do. Maybe they didn't want to THAT time...or any of the other various times I've seen the stacks. But what are new players meant to think, when that's what they have to play against? Pretty sure many of them would think you guys just enjoy steamrolling noobs.
One or two of you have said you learn best from playing against stacked teams. Good job. Maybe I'll feel the same way when I'm not so new. But for the time being, I don't feel like I'm learning anything when my team gets pummeled 5 minutes into the match. Zero fun. Zero learning. Just left wondering what went wrong. Zero answers. However, when I played in an evenly balanced match, I learned so much! It was the best experience I've had since I started playing this game. Too bad the majority of the matches I'm in aren't like that...
Seriously, though, if I was a veteran, and I was on a stacked team of friends, I'd go to the other side and take a couple friends with me. Makes it balanced, makes it fun for everyone involved. Get to kick other friends' asses and poke fun at them for losing against my noob team. There's more than one way to have fun with friends...
Not asking for a free win...that's boring. Not asking to be babysat. Asking for a fun challenge, not a seriously quick and unfair bashing.
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If you don't want to lose to a stacked team...
Just don't play in a match with a stacked team.
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I'm the kind of player that changes to the losing team to balance the game. I do it in most games, but I tend not to do it in this one. If we're on a winning streak, I want to continue that streak with my crew because it's my crew - we've discovered how well we work together and our pros and cons. We are having fun playing together.
I know it's not fun to be on the losing team or to join a match that has one team full and the other empty, but it's a result of the promotion of the crew ideology and the game in general. Perhaps instead of complaining about it, you try and get some friends onboard and attempt to defeat your opponents using strategy or by adjusting your style.
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Hey Aythreuk, as a Moderator of the community, I can understand where your concerns are coming from and most players do strive to address your concerns and keep the game balanced as best as they can, but it will not be possible to adjust players decisions all of the time. Often players do enjoy staying with a crew and even team that they have found works well together. As this is the case, we will understand if you choose not to continue playing the game. We hope, however, that together we can push through this obstacle, and see you enjoying the game in the near future.
~Morbie
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I remember coming in as a level one, doing fairly well in the majority of matches, bringing in a couple of friends and working my way up with those friends against "stacked" teams. If you keep playing, you'll find some lower level pilot that knows how to maneuver, when not to maneuver, and when to stabilize completely. You'll find a couple of engineers that listened to a veteran player or worked out the details themselves, and they'll keep you alive through some pretty interesting situations. You'll find at least one gunner that can hit well, sometimes even at a distance. Take those people and add them to your friends list.
Now, whenever they're online, you should hop into their matches. At least you know they're good at what they do. You might get one or two at a time, or even get the whole ship back together. That's when you'll really start defying those worthless little numbers next to those neat little icons that indicate your role.
I've been on ship with a level one pilot as he fought against a level nine. Over and over again, his abilities put us in a better position to lay fires. He communicated well, listened well, and even knew when to ignore my demands for better azimuth over better position. He did his time in the sandbox. I can't say the same for many of these newbies.
tl;dr
If the players that are leaving are doing so because they're fighting against veteran players, I'm not sure I care and I doubt many other people do, either.
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I played on a European server once. I was the captain and my crew all spoke some European language. Thanks but no thanks. You could say practically anything is "playable", it doesn't really say much.
English?
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I maintain that the low retention rates come from the fact this game is not for everyone. It sounds cool on the surface, steam punk airships, massive guns, and arena multiplayer. However when you drill down to it this game is about teamwork, following orders, personnel management, time management, and ballistic computation. For people who come from a world of FPS death match where winning comes down to putting a dot on another players head faster than he does it to you, this game is like a foreign language. I bought the 4 pack for myself and three friends. Only two of us still play.
The team stacking issue comes from how frustrating it is to fly with a team of all new players. When given the choice between being on a team with a competent captains and crew ,verses a crew of new players who will most likely make so many errors I will go blue in the face trying to correct them, I will take the vets any day. I play this game to have fun after all.
If an entire crew rage quits I sometimes switch teams with the rest of my crew to bring balance, but I am loathed to abandon a good crew. By good crew I mean people who follow orders and understand how I fly. They don't have to be high level or very experienced, we just have to work well together.
If muse wants to address this problem I suggest ship shuffling if one side gets too badly stomped. Keep the crew together but break up the team of vets. That way the members of the loosing team hopefully get paired with people who can teach them.
@ Charon
If new players follow your advice they will end up as high level vets in no time. That is how I went from not knowing the difference between the pipe wrench and spanner to what I am today, and I am sure most of the old hands have similar stories. Salute!
Well maybe not Spaceman, he probably knew how to fly an airship before he could walk.
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There's a lot of banter going on within these stacked crews. Leave a team of players you know for an unknown crew and there's:
- 80% chance noone will communicate (by text or voice)
- 80% chance one crew member will not play the team game and will do their own thing
- 60% chance communication will be hampered by differences in language and culture (the Russian peoblem)
- 60% chance two crew members will not play the team game and will do their own thing
- 40% chance you'll end up with either a spare pilot or a spare gunner, and if you do there's a 90% chance they'll only gun
- 20% chance one player will do nothing at all (on the increase, two weeks ago I wasn't seeing it, it's not a spawn problem - they do move around they just don't play)
Against those odds, then unless I'm in a charitable mood and not just wanting to relax at the end of the day.. why would I not play on the same crew as the guys I already know, who know the routine and make everything just flow and know what to do?
Catch me in a charitable mood, and I'll take out a complete crew of new players and see how we get on. Start out in a Goldfish, and if they're any good and they communicate try a Pyra or Junker build later.
One thing I won't do is crew for a Captain that's not a pilot. This is very common with new players at the moment. I've heard it described as "the Russian model" where a Gunner takes the pilot role to specify the ship and guns he wants, and hopes he'll get someone to steer for him. As the Captain has control over the NOD keys, it's very awkward for the pilot on the crew.
If you really want to break-up the stacked teams, then Quick Match has to be disabled and there needs to be a balance switch so the Captain can specify 2x Engineer and 1x Gunner on the roster to prevent mid-game joiners wrecking the tactics. Even then, that still allows a sufficient asshole factor for mid-game joining players to express their individuality by providing a Captain with two buffing engineers mid-game.
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Hey Aythreuk
I can understand your concern about this,
But I have seen more games with only low level players in than I have ever seen before.
The high level players tend to play high level players for the benefit of getting good competition.
I have some members of SMAC, Ducks and gents on my friends list so I can quick join them instead of using every single minute of my game time teaching new players how to become better.
However I host a games daily called Crow Nest where everyone is welcome. And I dont mind getting level 1 players on my team, and I am quick to compliment them on their behavior and when they do things right.
But then there are players who just doesnt get the game, and no matter how hard and long you try to explain to them, you use more than 80% of your game time telling them how to fix a hull, or how to aim than actually steering your vessel. - that is where my patience wears off, I just can't play with new players that doesn't respond.
Another problem is people being unable to take criticism, If i tell an engineer he needs to do a better job I expect him to step his game up and do his best. This isn't a game where you can slack off like an mmo, here the entire crew works as one unit, and if someone is doing a bad job I tell them to leave my ship or step it up, some people cant take that criticism and those are the people I actually don't want to play with.
also players insisting on piloting as level 1 is really annoying to be honest, no matter how many advice you give them, they wont learn because the best way to learn piloting is to first know your ships, health and limitations. - so starting as an engineer for some 30 games according to me should be mandatory.
My best suggestion is if you are going to play against high level /skilled players, don't whine about it, you can always join another game, but I learned a lot from being constantly defeated by players that were better than me at the time.
also ask the captains if you can be allowed to serve on their ships to learn the game, dont blame us for not doing anything, blame yourselves for not taking the initiative.
It's not that we like winning all the time, it's just that if we have to decrease our knowledge and experience, the game just feels like its a boring job instead of us trying new tactics etc. etc.
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after I made a post I realized that there were 3 pages :p
If a lot of what I said had been said before just disregard that.
I have a small sidenote too.
i add every low level who did an awesome job on my ship to my friendslist, and ask them to do the same. So as Charon says fill up your friendslist, thats what everyone else in this thread did.
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Hey guys, I think I've figured out what to do about this. Once I say it, I'm sure you'll all agree.
WE ARE OP
NERF US
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I would wager that more new players were lost to connection issue/game glitches than "stacked games." I endure them, and as do the rest of you here, because we love the game. We know that the developers are working hard to iron out the kinks that such a large volume of players presents, so, we are patient. New players who haven't really gotten into the game or over the learning curve are much less likely to be tolerant of those issues. I haven't been in a single game where people were vocal in which they weren't coaching new players. (Unless you count the games where my crew is all Russian; I couldn't tell you what in the hell they're saying).
I have about as much evidence to support my theory as you have to support yours. Next time that the game freezes or lags in a bizarre way I'll go ahead and screencap it for you so we're on even footing.
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I'm also one of those cool guys who tend to switch teams if it's unbalanced. Was on a 3v3 yesterday, first on blue, and we were winning against other at least somewhat experienced crews (level 3 and upwards, at least the captains), until most of them left and the other side got filled with level 1 players. I switched teams with their remaining level 3 Captain and found myself paired with 2 level 1 Captains, one of them an Engineer. We got one kill troughout the match, and were constantly battling their level 7 pyramidion Captain. That was funny though, and I guess that's what kept the game going for a while. Anyhow, about my team:
I called targets troughout the game, and no one responded, and when we nearly had the Pyramidion down for the first time one of our allies respawned behind them - I asked for help with them, and they flew straight away, totally oblivious to us struggling with another ship just in front of them. It was a little frustrating, and I'm seriously happy that my crew stayed aboard the ship troughout the game. Still, I felt a little unnerved at the end of it.
It's a quite tedious business at times, teaching and playing with new players. Especially if you've got to give up on the lads you usually play with. I usually avoid matches with guild tags in them, because I've only got one fixed crewmember who plays regularly, and the rest will be quickly filled up with whoever comes along or has me on his friends list, and whoever comes along sometimes puts me at a disadvantage. You could say I'm used to having a second captain fire my gatling.
Still, I'd call it best judgement to switch teams if things get unbalanced, because there's no fun to be had if you're just wrecking a totally clueless opposing team. In that I like the guild-tagged matches very much, because they usually only attract players who are up to the challenge, and the rest will go for Randomname's Game. In my opinion, having a high level of experience should morally oblige one to share it with newcomers.
We could maybe force players to get at least some captaining experience by making them go trough a tutorial before they're able to take the Captain Role, or Commander position in a game? Could work much the same way with Engineers and Gunners. I've started another indie game recently, and before you even get to have a look at the main menu of it, you're forced into a tutorial. For instance.. Captaining: Use Hydrogen to reach a ascending speed of X. Ram target X at the other side of the map with Impact Bumpers.
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Hey guys, I think I've figured out what to do about this. Once I say it, I'm sure you'll all agree.
WE ARE OP
NERF US
Yep I'm out. It was nice playing with everyone!
*deletes account*
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Whether or not Aythreuk is still paying attention, three pages of discussion proves he/she has struck a nerve. I think we all feel a little guilty for some of the harsh newb stompings we hand out, especially when more than half of the names on your team are in green. At least I do.
I don't really know how we can make the situation better without changing what we love about Guns of Icarus. A crew of coordinated experienced players should do significantly better than a crew who doesn't know what their are doing. Otherwise what is the point in coordinating and learning the game?
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Im guessing I'm one of the newest here, im one of the indie bundle purchasers.
Things really haven't been that bad in terms of finding games so far. I managed to convince four other friends to pick up the game up because we all have a blast playing team based games together. There's really been only one night that we had trouble finding a game andthat was because we were dead set on crewing together; if we split up it would have been far easier.
I will admit it is intimidating seeing opposing ships manned by a bunch of vets but many people are fairly sporting. even our kamikaze Russian opponents were diligent enough to drop a GG afterward. I guess the lesson from my point of view is to just take the games as they happen; if I can fly with friends great. if not I'll gladly hop on (as an engineer WITH a mic, don't worry) and cruise with someone else.
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Part of the problem is that, when many new and inexperienced players lose to a well-organized team, they simply leave the match in silence. They don't learn from the defeat, nor make any attempt to improve. Instead, they try to find a game with other players closer to their own experience level, in order to find a "fair" fight. Many players who play online games don't actually want to play with other players. What they really want is to play against really smart AI. They have no interest in communicating with their fellow players, and when the challenge is too great, they prefer to turn down the difficulty instead of raising themselves to that level. This is not exclusive to GOIO, but rather is a shift seen in the culture of online gaming in general over the past decade or so.
Now, I'm not trying to place blame on the new players, nor am I lumping every single online gamer into this category. I'm simply pointing out a trend of modern online gamer behaviour. 10-15 years ago, when online gaming was really starting to take off, player community was a much higher priority than it is now. In today's online community, players want to be able to log in solo and have fun, even in games based entirely around an online experience with/against other players. Even MMOs feel they need to cater to "solo" players in order to have success. It used to be understood that, in order to get the full potential out of such a game, you needed to find yourself a solid core group of friends to play with. The expectation today is that the solo gamer should be able to "pop in" to an online game and have a blast. Any obstacle which gets in the way of this casual fun (like, say, running into a good team of players) is immediately met with frustration and hostility, where it potentially could have been a more profound learning experience.
-Macheath.
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Part of the problem is that, when many new and inexperienced players lose to a well-organized team, they simply leave the match in silence. They don't learn from the defeat, nor make any attempt to improve. Instead, they try to find a game with other players closer to their own experience level, in order to find a "fair" fight. Many players who play online games don't actually want to play with other players. What they really want is to play against really smart AI. They have no interest in communicating with their fellow players, and when the challenge is too great, they prefer to turn down the difficulty instead of raising themselves to that level. This is not exclusive to GOIO, but rather is a shift seen in the culture of online gaming in general over the past decade or so.
I've often wanted to tell an opposing new pilot what he did wrong, but he's switched out of the match so fast there's no opportunity. Too many new players don't hang around unless they're winning. Of course, the frequent connection drops and just plain old bugginess of the servers at the moment isn't helping. Maybe their not all rage quitting, perhaps the weaknesses of the servers could also be considered part of the problem. Some stability is required, and quickly.
I had a great series of games the other night with Zoo. There was noone else we knew available to play with, so he and I each took a Pyra and had at least two L1 players on each crew. One of my L1 Gunners was pretty good, and I adjusted the ship after the first match to favour his style. He thanked me at the end of the session for his first ever winning streak. That felt good.
It's really nice to get a new player that plays the team game.. ..
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This post is a failure.
Not a stacked team with Firestone.
The problem isn't stacked teams, it's static teams.
I love a little newb bashing, I need deathless achievement.
But mix it up after. If you don't procure the next generation of your crewmates, your grease monkeys will be all gray.
Morbie and I did this exact thing the other night. Ravaged the other team a round or two, then went opposing. You learn more flying against the best than riding in their shadow.
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Morbie and I did this exact thing the other night. Ravaged the other team a round or two, then went opposing. You learn more flying against the best than riding in their shadow.
I do generally find that's the best way to go about things ^^
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Playing with a team is just about the only way to get a win in my time zone. I get nothing but Russians that respond with "Mother puck you" (the p is actually in there) when you try to communicate. Other than that, they have fun slamming into rocks and generally being worthless: I mean it, they actually videotape themselves playing like this and post the videos in video blogs where they're applauded for their worthlessness.
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Playing with a team is just about the only way to get a win in my time zone. I get nothing but Russians that respond with "Mother puck you" (the p is actually in there) when you try to communicate. Other than that, they have fun slamming into rocks and generally being worthless: I mean it, they actually videotape themselves playing like this and post the videos in video blogs where they're applauded for their worthlessness.
I have notices some Russians like playing bumper cars and cursing in English. Usually a double merc Pyramidion can net you some easy kills in that situation. Though your Russian teammate will be a bit confused as to why you are not playing bumper cars with the rest of them. I find having the following on a piece of paper next to your computer helps:
Left - slevo
Right - pravo
Front - speride
Back - zadni
Repair - patchine
Shoot - strelet
Hull - corpus
Balloon - shar
These probably aren't the best translations, and most Russians ask me to stop abusing their language, but it is only fair considering what they do to English.
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Copying that one down. S!
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I love to help out and teach new crews, and it's basically how I spent the day of the sale. But it is SO difficult. I have to sit in the lobby and explain how the game works, 'cause they refuse to read the game manual (pretty sure NONE of the people I told that to (easily over 50) read the manual. Same response from all of 'em, "nah."), and then spend 30 seconds at the beginning of the game talking like a southern at 3000 words a minute explaining my strategy to them. LOTS of work, and most of the time, not relaxing. Especially when they fail, though most of the time, they turn out to be shining crew members. Which is what I love.
I don't play with the noobs to even out the teams, I play with them to give them some guidance so THEY can even out the teams. I did not get this guidance when I started and I played against "stacked" teams (though not really, just higher level. That term is being thrown around a little too generously) with NO help and I had about 70 deaths before I got my first kill. I learned from my mistakes and learned how to beat these stuck up high levels. No I am enjoying a 480 some kills to 370 some deaths.
But your so called "proof" or statistics is not very good at all. You made faulty a assumption that the people who bought the bundle, played this game, and even if they did, left because of "stacked" teams. You did not phone call each one and ask him why he doesn't play it. I have tried to convince a lot of my friends to purchase this game but many of them were completely uninterested in the game.
Also, the amount of people playing the did not decrease it all, it increased by a good 1000% (at least). Before the purchase it was pretty often that I had mostly AI crew. Now people don't like to start a game unless they have full crews.
Yep, completely useless rant is over. :P
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That post is more than deserving of a salute, Magellan.
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ERMAGEHRD I HAVE TWO SALUTES.
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It kind of goes both ways.
For the most part people who choose to play a certain game are somewhat determined to at least learn the basics;- and I'd say the majority of these players will fare just fine through trial and error.
What doesn't work is when you;- as more experienced player - try to help them out and end up overflowing them with information they don't yet need to understand or learn;- I've witnessed a good example of this yesterday.
I remember that I really had no clue on my first match. I didn't know how repairing something worked;- or even how to tell what is being damaged. I didn't know what kind of damage I was dealing with a gun;- and I was falling off ships constantly trying to navigate from battle station to battle station;- exploring ships even in times of stress.
It is perfectly understandable when you have a pretty fresh crew just out of the crib trying to figure the game out that you get a little frustrated or annoyed - but games can last as quick as 5 minutes and generally do not last very long;- so it's a good sacrifice to make to just keep your head cool and give them some time to explore while you just point out the very basics they might be needing to know at the moment.
A completely new player does not need to know what a goldfish is or that flak cannons are best used to take out enemy weapons. New players do not really need to be told just yet to take a certain ammo type because it's good. For their first couple of matches we just need to have that little bit of patience to let them figure out some things on their own and get accustomed to the keys and controls - then how to seat a weapon; how to start repairing something.
That always has been and will be the best approach to welcome new players into your game;- people who you consider the biggest noobs on your crew are potentially your best friends and most skillful players a couple of weeks down the road;- all they need is a little bit of time.
People who can't figure the game out; can't handle someone getting a little impatient with them and people who do not have the basic interest in this game to search for a manual; forum guide or seek out the help of a CA or any player at all probably are not the target audience for this game after all. Now it would be a really bad marketing approach to not care about these players and motivate them to play Guns of Icarus Online;- but you catch my drift.
My advice goes -
If you're the type of person that doesn't mind or even likes to help other people out;- please take into account their learning curve and maximum attention span to detail. Take it slow; just hit them with a couple of basics and leave some of it for them to learn on their own. Don't tell them what is good and what is not good before they know how to use it in the first place.
Chances are you will only stress them out with too much information that isn't important yet and then get frustrated because they don't show immediate improvement on basics - a common phenomenon where you might have the impression they are just really not listening to you while they're just confused and unable to distinct what is good and helpful from what is fundamental.
If you're the type of person that simply can't stand having to deal with crew members who don't understand the game yet;- don't lash out or let them know you're frustrated. They'll get the hang of it. Games only last anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes and rarely go much longer than that so just suck it up and see it as a challenge on your own performance before heading out and finding a new lobby for your next round.
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But your so called "proof" or statistics is not very good at all. You made faulty a assumption that the people who bought the bundle, played this game, and even if they did, left because of "stacked" teams. You did not phone call each one and ask him why he doesn't play it. I have tried to convince a lot of my friends to purchase this game but many of them were completely uninterested in the game.
Just because 11k people bought the bundle does not mean they bought it for GOIO either
I knew this point would come up, feel free to knock off a few thousand from that number, it doesn't really affect it that much.
Even if you knock that number down to 5,000, which is ridiculous by the way. The handful of people who actually play still reflects the games poor retention rate. You guys are pointlessly nit-picking.
Although, I already responded to this, as quoted, you didn't take the time to read, so I don't know why I'm taking the time to reply.
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Even if you knock that number down to 5,000, which is ridiculous by the way. The handful of people who actually play still reflects the games poor retention rate. You guys are pointlessly nit-picking.
Although, I already responded to this, as quoted, you didn't take the time to read, so I don't know why I'm taking the time to reply.
...you just ignored 99% of the posts, picked one single one to respond to, then accused everyone who isn't you... Of nit-picking.
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120207102044/glee/images/9/93/Seriously.gif)
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Ok the arguments are beginning to become circular, it's time to pump the brakes and forget about any insulting details that might have been traded back and forth.
Insanity check
Q: Is GOI a difficult to approach game with a moderately steep learning curve?
A: Yes
Q: Do the majority of the player base use the tools available to them to decrease the entrance level difficulty?
A: No
Q: Do players with increased ability to communicate with each other play together more often?
A: Yes
Q: Do a large majority of "veteran" players fall into this category?
A: Yes
Q: Does a steep learning curve, followed by rapid defeat turn new players off to the game?
A: Yes
We will do what every community of gamers have always done. Establish a core group of players who will form the perceived veteran core. It will be difficult for new, less experienced players to perform and play at this level.
The absolute best thing we can do for new players is...
List what you are going to do, to help. Let's be constructive, let's not nitpick, let's get something moving.
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Even if you knock that number down to 5,000, which is ridiculous by the way. The handful of people who actually play still reflects the games poor retention rate. You guys are pointlessly nit-picking.
Although, I already responded to this, as quoted, you didn't take the time to read, so I don't know why I'm taking the time to reply.
...you just ignored 99% of the posts, picked one single one to respond to, then accused everyone who isn't you... Of nit-picking.
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120207102044/glee/images/9/93/Seriously.gif)
I wouldn't exactly say that "you guys" = everyone
"You guys" in this instance referred to, you know, the people who were nit-picking.
Nice try though
*insert funny face from internet to make up for lack of an actual argument here*
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Playing with a team is just about the only way to get a win in my time zone. I get nothing but Russians that respond with "Mother puck you" (the p is actually in there) when you try to communicate. Other than that, they have fun slamming into rocks and generally being worthless: I mean it, they actually videotape themselves playing like this and post the videos in video blogs where they're applauded for their worthlessness.
I have notices some Russians like playing bumper cars and cursing in English. Usually a double merc Pyramidion can net you some easy kills in that situation. Though your Russian teammate will be a bit confused as to why you are not playing bumper cars with the rest of them. I find having the following on a piece of paper next to your computer helps:
Left - slevo
Right - pravo
Front - speride
Back - zadni
Repair - patchine
Shoot - strelet
Hull - corpus
Balloon - shar
These probably aren't the best translations, and most Russians ask me to stop abusing their language, but it is only fair considering what they do to English.
This might be of interest to you: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,231.0.html
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All of this arguing is pointless... let's either take this to the pit, or try to help some of the newbies out
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,245.msg2807.html#new (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,245.msg2807.html#new)
Since this argument has essentially gone full circle, I recommend that we lock this thread, and continue it in the pit if you so want.... Is this acceptable Aythreuk?
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All of this arguing is pointless... let's either take this to the pit, or try to help some of the newbies out
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,245.msg2807.html#new (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,245.msg2807.html#new)
Since this argument has essentially gone full circle, I recommend that we lock this thread, and continue it in the pit if you so want.... Is this acceptable Aythreuk?
You guys can do what you will. I don't really need to say anything else.
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Then why do you keep posting? If anything that hurts your argument.
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I'm going to ignore Aythreuk's arguments here and just pretend I'm the OP of this thread.
What's been said in this thread against Aythreuk can apply to any other game, but as this game has such a low population team stacking has a more pronounced effect. Oftentimes a teamstacked game is the ONLY game with any people in it and slots still open, there are not enough games for people to just leave and join a new one. When things go bad on the losing side of a teamstacked game, you're not just getting angry by yourself, there's people there blaming others for the loss (typically the poor sod who took Captain to get the game going).
This is a small community. Games with small communities do not survive without certain key players acting as leaders for that community. I'm not talking about moderators or CA's or any of that nonsense, I mean anyone who would consider themselves a "veteran" at all needs to be able to fill that role in such a small group. If that core group is perceived as hostile, it will not grow and could eventually cause the game to die out. I've seen this happen on other games I've played and it pisses me off tremendously every time.
I'm not pissed, however, because this game has an exceptionally welcoming community for the most part. Unlike other truly team-based games like DOTA-likes, there is a clear leader role that can function very well even with inexperienced teammates so long he acts as a leader and his teammates are willing to cooperate. If you're NOT friendly towards your crew in this game, you will suck horribly, ragequit, and thereby remove yourself from the community. I really think the game is small because of its bugginess negatively impacting its metacritic score and pissing off new players.
However, a portion of the community that doens't fall into the exceptionally welcoming category will often bitch (or joke, still bad) about preferring AI teammates to real ones or that their crew is just bad even though they're trying. I can tell you right now that if you think you'd be better off with AI than a "bad" crew that's trying and listening, I will take them and I will kick your ass with them, I have never had a human player that listened to me (even if he's stayed silent) function worse than an AI. Seriously, that AI comment, even jokingly, has caused quite a few ragequits in my short time here, if you actually care about the community cut that out.
For those of you who had a knack for the game early on, going against a stacked team does not equate to a learning experience for anyone. An intelligent teammate coaching you is going to do you worlds better than finding it out for yourself, it's pretty much why I'm doing well right now despite my relative inexperience. A flat-out curbstomp will not educate someone like a near loss will, oddly enough most people dislike being beaten mercilessly and are not going to devote non-fun time to reading the manual when it's smarter to just play another game in the bundle. It's just time management on their part. That does not mean we should just resign to being a niche game, this game does not have to remain niche. All of my friends who've played the game with me have had a blast on my ship, they can learn the mechanics and gameplay just fine (even though it'd be better if sandbox had more direction in it so it could function as a proper tutorial), it's when there's no hope for victory that they decide to stop playing until I get on. Not everyone wants to be the best, nor should that attitude be a requirement to enjoy the game. Low-skill matches have their place too.
That brings me back to the point about the size of the community, though. In a larger community it's fairly easy to find another game without pubstompers, here not so much. The part of the community that's really good at the game is constantly rubbing elbows with those that aren't, and it's up to those experienced players to make that elbow rubbing as enjoyable as possible for both parties. Muse and moderators and CA's can help with mechanics and good common sense moderation, but that can only do so much. Saying that it's not your responsibilty doesn't change that the game will grow smaller if you don't help the game, there isn't enough people here to pass that responsibility onto someone else.
Phoebe made a very excellent post about the "advice" some captains give their new players, don't assume everyone has Aspergers and wants to know absolutely everything about this game at once. I'm actually interested in making a guide on how to teach new players quickly and efficiently while entertaining everyone involved, Phoebe if you have some spare time do you working together on that?
I know no good captain wants to abandon the crew that's served them so loyally, but I know for a fact Candlehax would betray a fellow captain for a Klondike bar. As soon as a game goes 5-0, switch sides and bring your crew with you. If you can't get everyone, leave behind the understanding crewmate and add him to FL, or try to con him into captaining the other ship and coaching him. You're already hooked on this game, you can handle a loss here and there. I do this whenever possible myself and I highly encourage everyone else here to do the same, don't wait for the other side to ask.
Again, I'm really impressed by this community in general, it's just that you're being a bit too quick to provide an excuse for the teamstacking rather than being proactive about a solution. I know the OP was a bit accusatory so of course that stuff's going to be brought up, but that doesn't mean we can't take matters into our own hands to fix it anyways. Trust me, you'll still be having plenty of fun.
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We've somehow managed to win 3 times yesterday, two times teams were somewhat balanced (well, only few enemy guys had small lvl advantage), but third time whole 5-4 lvl enemy crew joined the party. That's very different from when two fully 8level packed crews stand up against you, but still, we're terrified, willing to run away like flock of sheep.
The only question was...
WHAT WOULD GENERAL LEE DO?
2nd level crews against 5th. We weree smashed to pieces. Depressing defeat.
That's the point when you usually quit. However. Once again.
WHAT WOULD GENERAL LEE DO?
By establishing simple communication between our ally and us. By having faith in our only crewmate, that wasn't in skype with us (rad guy, tho i forgot his name because of hangover). By focusing on superior enemy crew, shouting out "f-word" (oh, god, i love f-word), arguing with each other and singing battle hymn of the republic (no consistency, i know), we've had a legendary victory over superior enemy forces (every our victory is legendary, because, in fact it happens once in millenia).
Victory is always possible, but who've said that there is no fun in defeat? You kids are too casual these days.
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I don't disagree that losing is fun, but I'm also aware that it's an unusual attitude and don't expect the majority of new players to share it. If you're really concerned about new players getting better, get on their team and coach them so they wreck your captain buddy. I mean, you can't have fun losing if you're on the winning team, now can you?
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Great post, Latrew, that's the type of attitude that'll get you far in this game.
And Helmic, I think you put it a lot better than Aythreuk. I still think that losing against guys like Captain Roy, MasX and Firestone always helped me when I was a new player, but I can see how others wouldn't share that sentiment. I'm always up for helping a team that's really struggling, and I love giving advice to people who are willing to hear it. There's just a problem with a large number of players who think of this as your run of the mill FPS, where you don't need to listen to what people tell you to do and run more or less solo. These people are the ones that won't learn no matter how hard you try.
So the two problems are experienced players who don't even try to help rookies, and new players who don't seem to give a crap.
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Yeah, those that come into the game expecting a steampunk FPS are going to be disappointed no matter what, although that doesn't mean they still can't be pleasantly surprised by the game once they understand. You have to read the game description to understand that the game is uniquely team-centric, the trailers put all the emphasis on the airships themselves.
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Yeah, those that come into the game expecting a steampunk FPS are going to be disappointed no matter what, although that doesn't mean they still can't be pleasantly surprised by the game once they understand. You have to read the game description to understand that the game is uniquely team-centric, the trailers put all the emphasis on the airships themselves.
I really hate it when people buy games without knowing what they're about at all. I remember reading somebody asking on the Steam Discussions for Portal 2 "When do you get a real gun in this game?"
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Yeah, those that come into the game expecting a steampunk FPS are going to be disappointed no matter what, although that doesn't mean they still can't be pleasantly surprised by the game once they understand. You have to read the game description to understand that the game is uniquely team-centric, the trailers put all the emphasis on the airships themselves.
I really hate it when people buy games without knowing what they're about at all. I remember reading somebody asking on the Steam Discussions for Portal 2 "When do you get a real gun in this game?"
I honestly spent the entirety of the original Portal wondering when the tutorial was going to end.
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I honestly spent the entirety of the original Portal wondering when the tutorial was going to end.
That's hilarious XD
Now that I look back, it was a bit like a tutorial.
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I honestly spent the entirety of the original Portal wondering when the tutorial was going to end.
I had a lot of trouble already very early in; you just made me feel awfully stupid :(
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I honestly spent the entirety of the original Portal wondering when the tutorial was going to end.
That's hilarious XD
Now that I look back, it was a bit like a tutorial.
In Valve's own words, both Portals ARE entirely tutorials. At the time I had only played games that stopped "teaching" you new things after a certain point, or only brought up a new concept once in a blue moon. I really love that approach, teaching the player to play through the gameplay, making everything a tutorial without making it not fun.
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I had a lot of trouble already very early in; you just made me feel awfully stupid :(
You're not alone. I had trouble grasping the concept of portals at first.
As long as we're talking about Portal, GoIO just dethroned Portal 2 as my most played game on steam. 192 hours vs. 184, I think.
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In Valve's own words, both Portals ARE entirely tutorials. At the time I had only played games that stopped "teaching" you new things after a certain point, or only brought up a new concept once in a blue moon. I really love that approach, teaching the player to play through the gameplay, making everything a tutorial without making it not fun.
Leave it to Valve to make something like that work! I swear, Portal is the only game that's made me care for an inanimate object. Those guys are just too good at game design.
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...how the silly fuck can you spend 184 hours on Portal 2. I can't replay Portal 2, I tried just so I could listen to the commentary but I couldn't do it, I can remember all the puzzle solutions and I only notice that the game's design is what made me feel clever, not me actually being clever. Is there a bunch of really good fan-made content?
But I do think a lot of Portal's concepts can be applied to other games. Someone mentioned that new players should be reading the manual earlier; Portal has a much more alien concept but doesn't rely on a manual to explain it. Whenever a game has you referring back to a manual, either you're playing DnD or you've done something horribly wrong.
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...how the silly fuck can you spend 184 hours on Portal 2. I can't replay Portal 2, I tried just so I could listen to the commentary but I couldn't do it, I can remember all the puzzle solutions and I only notice that the game's design is what made me feel clever, not me actually being clever. Is there a bunch of really good fan-made content?
I expected such a reaction :)
Portal 2's Puzzle Maker came out last year, and there is a lot of really good content. I spent countless (184) hours playing it and creating some myself.
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...how the silly fuck can you spend 184 hours on Portal 2. I can't replay Portal 2, I tried just so I could listen to the commentary but I couldn't do it, I can remember all the puzzle solutions and I only notice that the game's design is what made me feel clever, not me actually being clever. Is there a bunch of really good fan-made content?
I expected such a reaction :)
Portal 2's Puzzle Maker came out last year, and there is a lot of really good content. I spent countless (184) hours playing it and creating some myself.
I'll have to give that a go then, do you have any recommendations?
Also I need more people to argue with me so my longass post doesn't go to waste. Hate it when a potentially good thread gets tossed in the junk forum.
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Potentially meaning "I posted in it" of course.
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Spending 184 hours on portal is kind of silly. But you do have a point about there being some really awesome content for it created by the community.
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Spending 184 hours on portal is kind of silly. But you do have a point about there being some really awesome content for it created by the community.
When you get really into it, those hours fly by. I would download dozens of maps at once, and play them all in one go.
In response to Helmic, the very best maps out there are made by a user called Mevious. You'd swear that his maps were made by Valve, except they're a whole lot harder (usually). There are also a whole bunch of fun mini-game and creatively done puzzles by Geneosis. You'll also find lots of maps made in the Hammer editor, of which one of the best collection would be 12 Angry Tests. You should definitely check some of those out.
It must be annoying to not get a response here. That's the problem with posts from the Pit not showing up in the unread sections.
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I believe the conversation about team stacking is essentially closed now. While yes teams with more experienced players makes a difference, if you are willing to learn, listen, and for experienced players even help out the newbies we can make this community much more successful. The problem can be that some aren't willing and those are the problem children that need to be ironed out somehow, either by knocking some sense into them or by letting them find the answers they are looking for themselves. You can't blame all of us for this issue as some of us do try and make a difference. As for blatantly blaming aimlessly at every experienced player you see, that isn't really helping the issue now is it?
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This is what you did to them. Guess where they went? To play the other games in their bundle.
Hello ^^
As a general note, not every game is for everyone. With games totaling in the millions world-wide, it's impressive if an online-connection-dependant game can stay afloat (Yay, puns!). With massive games such as CoD:BO2 and other "main-stream" gamers being shoved into the minds of games morn, noon, and night, there's naught else one can do other than play with those what you can find and be happy with it. I honestly have never found a crew I've not enjoyed playing with. Whether it was a group of level one Captains (Yes, 3 captiains and one Engi, meself) or under Zill, I enjoy playing the game. I fix things, run around, and generaly have a good time. "Friendship" is an added bonus. Mostly to pass the time between having my hull blown out. But let's not point fingers and get them back on our decks. Thank you ^^
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Hello ^^
As a general note, not every game is for everyone. With games totaling in the millions world-wide, it's impressive if an online-connection-dependant game can stay afloat (Yay, puns!). With massive games such as CoD:BO2 and other "main-stream" gamers being shoved into the minds of games morn, noon, and night, there's naught else one can do other than play with those what you can find and be happy with it. I honestly have never found a crew I've not enjoyed playing with. Whether it was a group of level one Captains (Yes, 3 captiains and one Engi, meself) or under Zill, I enjoy playing the game. I fix things, run around, and generaly have a good time. "Friendship" is an added bonus. Mostly to pass the time between having my hull blown out. But let's not point fingers and get them back on our decks. Thank you ^^
That's really generic and doesn't say much of anything. Other games have larger communities and they aren't Call of Duty or Battlefield or World of Warcraft. People have room for several games in their lives. While I disagree with a lot of what Aythreuk says, that main point about team stacking being a big issue still stands. If you weren't lucky enough to get a great crew the first time you played, on the day of the sale you were met with gamecrashing bugs and hopelessly stacked teams, any sane person would have written the game off as shit. We, the players, can't do much about the bugs we've already posted about, but we can control the team stacking to a degree by sheer peer pressure. It has a real effect and if we want a larger community we need to take some initiative.
Now, since this thread's been posted there HAS been some initiative. To be perfectly frank I don't the flight schools are going to accomplish much beyond communicating that the game is so hard you need specialized training that only a handful of people will ever be on to get, but that there's a desire to do something like that means the community does want to address the issue.
What I think is having more of an effect is the change in attitude towards that "AI is better" joke. When I first started playing during the Steam sale I ran into that comment a lot and it gave me a negative impression of the game's community. I've heard it a grand total of once since: the guy was telling people joining his crew to leave because he preferred AI, so everyone else just proceeds to shit on him, saying if he can't lead newbies better than AI he's a terrible captain. Now I'm sure some pansy is going to whine about being vulgar, but the fact that people are willing to be vulgar in defense of these new players (and then proceeding to kick ass with them) speaks MUCH louder than the quiet denouncement here on the forums. It's like with baseball, sometimes it's worth arguing with the umpire just so your players can watch you do it.