New Close-Range Weapon Discussion/Suggestion Thread

[Kestril]

Hi GoI community,

It's been noted  that there is a need for a new, light, extremely close-range weapon. The weapon balance is very good as of now, and, quite frankly, I don't feel like I'm familiar enough for the game to come up with a stellar suggestion. So, I thought if we put our heads together, we could come up with something brilliant. 

Generally, I think that there are a few guidelines which make a successful weapon:

The weapon must be fun and satisfying to use
-Pretty standard. If it's no fun to point and shoot, then people won't like it.

The weapon must bring something new to the table
-Weapons greatly influence the style of play for the whole ship. If it offers something new,  more diverse strategies will develop, and the overall diversity of gameplay will increase.

The weapon must be fun to play against.
-Probably the most important guideline to consider. It's pretty fun to be tugged around by a harpoon, or stay out of flamer/manticore range, or keep a heavy cannonade from getting above you.  Whatever this new close-range weapon is, it has to be just as fun to play against as it is to play with it.

-----------

So, in the interest of sparking discussion, I'll go ahead and suggest what I've come up with. It's a little long, so feel free to just start posting/suggestion and read the quote block later.

Kinetic Silver Slug-Gun
Range: Extremely Close
Clip: 2
Projectile type: Projectile. (Not raycast or whatever the flamethrower is)
Reload speed: Slow.
Damage Type 1: Piercing
Damage Value 1: 75*(Speed Modifier)
Damage Type 2: Explosive
Damage Value 2: 50*(Speed Modifier)

Why is it satisfying to use?
The faster the ship is going, the more damage the ship does. So, landing a volley as you flash by should be pretty satisfying for a gunner. Plus, the thing could look like a cross between a revolver and a shotgun, and, with proper animation, "feel" the weight of the slugs as they are loaded into the chamber.  For a captain, diving into the fray of enemies, crippling a hull, and then speeding out the other side while

What does it bring to the table?
This gun allows for the use of hit-and-run attacks. A captain must line his ship up and gain speed early, as well as coordinate with his gunners for the best moment to fire. This weapon offers the pyramidion even more ramming potential, and gives the squid some close-range punch. On a goldfish, these could be mounted on the side guns to allow some high-speed side-swipes. On a junker, this gun could be mounted on the front to open an engagement with a punch before switching to side-guns. This weapon, however, does not lend itself well to the galleon or the spire. Finally, this weapon is the only weapon to offer both explosive and piercing damage.

Why would this be fun to play against?
Captains would easily be able to identify the KSSG due to the silver-y trail the projectiles leave behind. Once identified, captains may try to avoid the KSSG attack by dodging, keeping out of range, or simply matching speeds with their opponent to reduce the damage done.  After the initial attack, captains would have many options to engage the enemy ship, mostly having to do with taking advantage of the slow reload time and punishing the attacker who stayed too close for too long. 

That's it for me. I'm not claiming it's the best suggestion by any means, but it is the best I could come up with. 

[Arthem White]

Here's a possibility:


(temporary name): Steam Jet Gun
Range: Similar to the Flamethrower, 60% length
Damage: Flechette and Piercing
Effect description: Fires a stream of pressurized steam. Despite the steam being hot, the sudden decompression from astronomic pressures causes it to cool down quickly, forming sharp ice crystals in the air, which pelt the enemy ships with surprising force.
In game effect: Mechanically, it handles like a shorter range Flamethrower with less firing arc, but it deals more direct damage, and it can have some interesting side effects. One is that it creates a mist where it hits, that sticks to the enemy ship for some seconds, making it really hard for the enemy to see. A Steam Jet Gun aimed at the helm, for instance, could leave the pilot unable to see properly and having to leave the helm for directions.

[Kestril]

Here's a possibility:
(temporary name): Steam Jet Gun

Sounds cool.

Range: Similar to the Flamethrower, 60% length

Alright. I've got a good idea of it's range.

Damage: Flechette and Piercing

Good against both balloon and hull, then.

Effect description: Fires a stream of pressurized steam. Despite the steam being hot, the sudden decompression from astronomic pressures causes it to cool down quickly, forming sharp ice crystals in the air, which pelt the enemy ships with surprising force.

So, it's an ice-thrower. While it would be cool to give a ship the "fire and ice" loadout, say a squid with your steamgun on the front and a flamthrower on the side, I think the "feel" of the weapon would overlap with the flamerthrower too much. It may not feel like a brand new gun, but rather a flamethrower that shoots icy-white puffs rather than red flame.

In game effect: Mechanically, it handles like a shorter range Flamethrower with less firing arc, but it deals more direct damage, and it can have some interesting side effects. One iss that it creates a mist where it hits, that sticks to the enemy ship for some seconds, making it really hard for the enemy to see. A Steam Jet Gun aimed at the helm, for instance, could leave the pilot unable to see properly and having to leave the helm for directions.

While I think it would be fun to use, I'm not seeing how it would be fun to counter. Tar is already a little annoying when the enemy dumps it right in front of you, but at least the tar cloud hides you as you take damage, as well as damages the enemy's engines. If the mist stuck close around the target ship, not only would the target ship be blinded, but would be an easy target for allies. Taking armor and balloon damage while being blinded (thus effectively immobilized as the pilot may have to leave the helm) and focused by enemy ships is not fun.

Plus, the only ship I see it working well on is the Squid or a Goldfish.  Due to it's very short range and lower firing arc, medium and large ships would simply opt for a defensive flamethrower to keep the lighter ships away. 

In summary: I feel that, while the weapon could be balanced due to it's limited range, the similarities to the flamethrower and the obscuring nature of the steam, I don't think that it would be unique nor fun to play against.

I hope that didn't come out as harsh. If it did, that wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to give the best constructive criticism I can :3

[Arthem White]

I hope that didn't come out as harsh. If it did, that wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to give the best constructive criticism I can :3

What? No, it's awesome! I wish I could get an intelligent analysis like that on all ideas. Thank you very much!

I see your point by the way, being fun to play against is the weakpoint of my proposal. I will write another one I have in mind later, after reviewing yours in kind.

To salvage the Steam Jet: What would you think if the blind effect didn't linger? If the reduction in visibility only happened during the attack itself, maybe it would give the enemy motivation to run away. Also, the Steam Jet could lower the engine power while it's being fired (after all it's tapping from the working fluid of the steam circuit) so it naturally makes it easier for the enemy to run away, kind of like a disengaging weapon.

[Pickle]

Should a close-range weapon be disabling or destroying? - I believe it should be disabling and Shatter based with a very short range and large AoE for a deck-sweeper effect.  Unfortunately the name "carronade" has already been used in the game, as I think this would be a better role for a gun with that name.

Single-shot, with a reload perhaps as long as 10 seconds
Shatter primary, quite low primary the emphasis is on the secondary.
Shatter secondary, a very high damage figure with a very large AoE (similar to the Artemis prior to the last adjustment)
Very short range (less than the flamethrower)

Damage needs to be balanced for Lochnagar rounds as the single shot, short range and long reload should encourage a "one shot and make it count" tactical use.   That one shot should be able to disable the complete broadside of a Galleon or the complete engine cluster of any ship within a very short effective range.  Essentially, a close-range Hail Mary light weapon version of the Hwacha in it's effect.  It won't destroy your enemy at close range, but it will stop him shooting at you for a while and buy you time to either finish him off with another weapon or disengage.  Timing in using this gun will be critical.  There's not going to be much of an incentive for including more than one of this gun on a broadside (Pyra or Junker).  As soon as it becomes too effective (Flechette and Piercing) it has the potential to be a balance nightmare and upset the meta (see Artemis post 1.2 and pre-nerf).

[Machiavelliest]

Just want to throw out that if you have a piercing gun that also gets more damage with ship speed the Pyramidion just became an insta-killer via ramming.

Also, projectile speed is so much greater than ship speed that, realistically, it wouldn't generate additional damage.

I was toying with the idea of a heated slug-like close range projectile.  I came up with piercing, but also sets fires.  The fire damage is pretty worthless against the hull (since you're going to destroy their armor and put out the fire anyways), but makes a component hit worthwhile.  I'd avoid piercing/shatter, since the spinnigun already has that.

Then again, all piercing weapons are piercing/shatter.  I think the fire would be another good way to allow some form of disabling.

[Arthem White]

I'm toying with the idea of a ballista that shoots huge lance-like chunks of metal at short range. Pure piercing damage, and the special effect would be pushback. A hit from one of these lances would bump the ship back in that spot (potentially making it turn if you hit in a way that applies torque, or smashing it against the wall).

What do you think? Should I ellaborate this more?

EDIT: Bah, in for a penny, in for a pound:

(temporary name):

"Lancer" Composite Ballista:
Range: Very Short
Damage: Pure Piercing (very high)
Clip size: 1
Effect description: Shoots a huge steel shaft with a loud "thunk". It deals significant piercing damage and pushes back the ship at the point of impact. This is a physics-based push and as such will have more effect on lighter ships, and it would be able to apply torque to ships, smash them against canyon walls, slow them down to counteract an impending ram, and so on.

Why would it be fun to use?: Well, aside from the Harpoon it would be the only weapon to let you explicitly fiddle with your opponent's movement, and as such it opens up many possible strategies. With focus fire it would be possible to repeteadly smash an enemy against a wall, to turn an opposing ship out of its arc of fire, etcetera.

Why would it be fun to play against?: It's a one shot, slow reload weapon, and as such it encourages good tactical decisions such as keeping track of the reload time and proper positioning (not being close to a wall to be rammed against, having the right angle...)


To justify the fact that it is short range, the projectile could be designed in a way that doesn't look too aerodynamic... (It could have a ram head, which would look awesome by the way)

[Kestril]

Just want to throw out that if you have a piercing gun that also gets more damage with ship speed the Pyramidion just became an insta-killer via ramming.

Perhaps, but it would be left with less range, and power than the gat/flak combo  if it missed it's initial ramming attack, which is quite easy to do.

Also, projectile speed is so much greater than ship speed that, realistically, it wouldn't generate additional damage.

True, but I don't think it's far out there enough to make me go "oh, wait, physics doesn't work like this." That may just be me though.

I was toying with the idea of a heated slug-like close range projectile.  I came up with piercing, but also sets fires.  The fire damage is pretty worthless against the hull (since you're going to destroy their armor and put out the fire anyways), but makes a component hit worthwhile.  I'd avoid piercing/shatter, since the spinnigun already has that.

Interesting. I'd love to see this idea further developed.

Then again, all piercing weapons are piercing/shatter.  I think the fire would be another good way to allow some form of disabling.

Yeah. I think fire, and disabling in general, needs a bit more love. Gat/Flak seems to be the standard these days.

What do you think? Should I ellaborate this more?

EDIT: Bah, in for a penny, in for a pound:

(temporary name):

"Lancer" Composite Ballista:
Range: Very Short
Damage: Pure Piercing (very high)
Clip size: 1
Effect description: Shoots a huge steel shaft with a loud "thunk". It deals significant piercing damage and pushes back the ship at the point of impact. This is a physics-based push and as such will have more effect on lighter ships, and it would be able to apply torque to ships, smash them against canyon walls, slow them down to counteract an impending ram, and so on.

High-risk, high reward. I like it. It's a stark contrast to the relatively safe, easy-to-use chaingun we have currently.

Why would it be fun to use?: Well, aside from the Harpoon it would be the only weapon to let you explicitly fiddle with your opponent's movement, and as such it opens up many possible strategies. With focus fire it would be possible to repeteadly smash an enemy against a wall, to turn an opposing ship out of its arc of fire, etcetera.

All of it sounds fun. Especially using it to deflect an enemy's ramming attack.  The only pitfall I can see is it's one-shot nature and "messing with movement" effects tread on the harpoon's territory a little bit. But, because the harpoon exerts a pull and not a push,  I still think it's different enough.

Why would it be fun to play against?: It's a one shot, slow reload weapon, and as such it encourages good tactical decisions such as keeping track of the reload time and proper positioning (not being close to a wall to be rammed against, having the right angle...)

The harpoon right now is pretty fun to have used against you, even though it's more of a "hold on for dear life" sort of thing. I think this would be similar, and pretty fun, honestly.

To justify the fact that it is short range, the projectile could be designed in a way that doesn't look too aerodynamic... (It could have a ram head, which would look awesome by the way)

Yeah, justification is tough on this one. My  gripe is that a bolt powerful enough to push or deflect ships is probably bigger than what can be used on a light gun, so, in my mind this weapon is more along the lines of a medium weapon. Basically, I picture a giant ballista that launches something like a small battering ram, which is way too big to be a light weapon, even though it's freaking awesome.

I think it's a great idea for a medium weapon, but, as of now, we need an alternative to the chaingun for armor shredding. While it definitively is a good suggestion, I don't think I could wrap my head around a light gun being able to push ships around, but that may be just me. In other words, while it is awesome, it may break my suspension of disbelief unless it was made a medium-sized weapon.

[Machiavelliest]

I agree, it would have to be a medium weapon.  I like the idea, though, because since it pushes the other ship, it makes powerramming not as easy.

[Arthem White]

Thanks for the review guys!

Here's my rationale for the weight:

It is indeed bigger than a normal light gun, but it is also mostly made of wood (while, say, a gatling or a light flak is much heavier) also, the clip is very small (one shaft at a time) so in terms of weight, it would fall into light category. In terms of bulk it might be borderline, but that can be justified with a small arc of fire (which it is supposed to have anyway).

[Veyka]

That sounds pretty fun actually, how about is has friccking short burning impact ignition rockets on it, thus short range (heavy bit of tosh) with a push (Rockets!!!)

If/when they fiddle with the harpoon it you could start pushing and pulling ships around, into things, etc Also its pretty damn funny when your ship goes flying in random directions.

You would need to balance it so that two of them at once or one and a harpoon (say on a pyra) doesn't make harpoon, spike, ram, OP.

[Bauldr]

Could you do delayed detonation? have a smaller lighter gun that fires a bolt that will detonate after X seconds? The blast could change the ship's course instead of the physical impact while still letting the gun be in the light category. You could justify a long reload by having to set up the charges on every bolt

[-Muse- Cullen]

There is a need for a new, light, extremely close-range weapon.

The weapon must be fun and satisfying to use

How about some sort of melee weapon, like a lance or battering ram on pulleys and springs. Reloading is reeling the weapon back to its starting position. It does impact damage and adds velocity to the target ship.

[N-Sunderland]

There is a need for a new, light, extremely close-range weapon.

The weapon must be fun and satisfying to use

How about some sort of melee weapon, like a lance or battering ram on pulleys and springs. Reloading is reeling the weapon back to its starting position. It does impact damage and adds velocity to the target ship.

If I remember correctly there were plans for a heavy ramming weapon a while back, but it was scrapped for several reasons (one of which being that it wouldn't have fit on a Pyra).

[Keon]

I still want a pyra with dual katanas.