Open question to Muse RE: December/November patches

[Skrimskraw]

yea dragonmere is the top rated negative comment on steam, just read it.

the obvious reasoning behind this thread would be to rile up players.

well he got us talking. BUt everytime I feel like there is something wrong with the game I write muse a detailed email with lots of pros and cons. And then I´m just happy it isnt january 2013 anymore where the game was totally favouring longrange galleons. Galleons everywhere :p

to elaborate dragonmeres question of matchmaking. Im pretty sure muse is still looking into this issue, and I´m pretty sure that you wouldnt make this thread without knowing this to begin with.

[dragonmere]

You're entirely missing my point. A few months ago, the issue of player retention suddenly became ridiculously high priority to the Muse team. Despite having nearly nothing to back up their claims, they blamed a good deal of the problem on 'stacked' teams. The same Steamcharts page that I posted was used as the only evidence, showing how quickly numbers drop after a sale ends.

A number of patched elements including brawling/sniping nerfs/buffs, 'scrambled' lobbies, and spawn system overhaul were forced on us to general apprehension from the community. These changes were said to explicitly be made in order to make the game more appealing to new players, and in turn, boost retention. Despite the vast majority of their concerns not being met, and accepting some rather strange compromises (non scrambled matches at the end of the list, and active area battle zone spawn points or whatever), the community seemingly dropped their complaints and has accepted the patches.

Now, here we are, at the end of the winter sale, and there is no change whatsoever in player retention, as far as I can see. The numbers are dropping, just as they have in the past, to a very slightly higher average than before the sale.

So, what now? If the issue was so important that it warranted the extreme and sudden changes, why is it no longer at the forefront? Where's the blog post akin to their infamous scrambled eggs post that details what the plan is now? Or is it suddenly a non-issue again? Does Muse view their changes as successful, and the issue as resolved? I sure don't see it that way.

That's the point. I'm glad you all eventually came to accept the patches, but that has nothing to do with changes to the game to positively influence player retention. And yes, I posted this rather than just send an email because I am attempting to start dialogue. Becoming entirely complacent just because the development team is extremely friendly and personable is not good for the community or the future of the game.

[Mod Josie]

So yes, the game has huge rises (sales) and drops (people leave to the next shiny thing, as Imagine said), but taking into account the limited target market it has, I think it is working pretty well.

This game is still going strong and I am very proud to be a part of its crazy journey through time and space. There are always going to be quandaries, it's unavoidable in any game - but the dedication that I see in members of the community and the developers is wonderful.
If you e-mail feedback@musegames.com you get through to top developers like Keyvias, MetaFive and Bubbles. That's like Bill Gates giving you Windows tech support!
Not to mention the ever-growing network of committed CAs that are emerging. This game is strong and it's going to withstand whatever's thrown at it.

I'm also really looking forward to Adventure Mode!

[Squidslinger Gilder]

I wouldn't look at just two months of patches but most of last year. Muse has been catering to a certain crowd since 1.2. This is a fast paced CoD world now. You aren't going to attract them with team play, and you aren't going to attract them with flying slugs in the air. They appear to want to bring more of them in but change after change has been done to nerf ships, nerf guns, and appease a minority few who want to fly the Goodyear blimp with machine guns.

Its the damn realist crowd. Constantly pressuring for more realism in a game that is very far from it. Somethings too fast...Muse nerfs it to uselessness. Something shoots too well...Muse nerfs it to uselessness. Then we get a routine of about 2-6 months waiting for it to be patched back.

Arcade style games always sell better and have higher retention than simulation. PVP should lean more towards this. COOP and AM should lean more towards simulation.

You can't go very far catering to two crowds which are on vast opposing ends of the gameplay. Eventually you have to pick one or the other and if you pick the wrong one, you'll have players like dragonmere who just have enough and quit. Or players like me who become only more outspoken and hated by certain members/CAs in the community because we aren't going to just roll over and take it in the rear. Heck I probably would have quit if not for the VN. Working on the stories based on Muse's world has actually been a good distraction from all issues in GOIO I don't agree with.

If your going to make a competitive, action oriented PVP game, then do it. But you'll be perpetually tweaking and fixing it unless you resolve to cater to your target audience. If your going to make a great single player experience then tweaking doesn't matter as much. AI or bots aren't going to be mad if the player is too OPed.

[Coldcurse]

I wouldn't look at just two months of patches but most of last year. Muse has been catering to a certain crowd since 1.2. This is a fast paced CoD world now. You aren't going to attract them with team play, and you aren't going to attract them with flying slugs in the air. They appear to want to bring more of them in but change after change has been done to nerf ships, nerf guns, and appease a minority few who want to fly the Goodyear blimp with machine guns.

Its the damn realist crowd. Constantly pressuring for more realism in a game that is very far from it. Somethings too fast...Muse nerfs it to uselessness. Something shoots too well...Muse nerfs it to uselessness. Then we get a routine of about 2-6 months waiting for it to be patched back.

Arcade style games always sell better and have higher retention than simulation. PVP should lean more towards this. COOP and AM should lean more towards simulation.

You can't go very far catering to two crowds which are on vast opposing ends of the gameplay. Eventually you have to pick one or the other and if you pick the wrong one, you'll have players like dragonmere who just have enough and quit. Or players like me who become only more outspoken and hated by certain members/CAs in the community because we aren't going to just roll over and take it in the rear. Heck I probably would have quit if not for the VN. Working on the stories based on Muse's world has actually been a good distraction from all issues in GOIO I don't agree with.

If your going to make a competitive, action oriented PVP game, then do it. But you'll be perpetually tweaking and fixing it unless you resolve to cater to your target audience. If your going to make a great single player experience then tweaking doesn't matter as much. AI or bots aren't going to be mad if the player is too OPed.

Dont know if muse was angry but the Hades and Flame damage got pretty OP.

[HamsterIV]

I think player retention has always been of ridiculously high priority for Muse. They are always trying out new things to accomplish this. The 9 stacks of fire instead of 1 to disable a gun was pretty game changing for me, as was the ship mass implementation. I stuck through it and adjusted my strategies because there was no other game that scratched my Coop game itch quite like GOIO. It is defiantly not the same game I bought over a year ago, and to be honest I preferred the premass change game play more.

Maybe one day a better game will come along and I will abandon this community for the other one. When that day comes I hope to drag as many of you with me as possible. You are all splendid folk.

[Richard LeMoon]

I just did an experiment, which pretty much personally validates what I have said before. I took off my headset, joined a random match where my captain readied up without saying a word, and played a KotH. No one on the ship said a single thing in voice, and there was just once request in chat by the top engie to switch guns with the gunner to get to the balloon faster. We took heavy damage and almost lost the point several times, got a lot of kills, and had a generally active match. It should have been exciting and nail-biting. However, with the complete lack of 'human' element, it was actually almost boring. The other crew might as well have been AI.

Guns is a team and strategy-building game, pure and simple. It is more like a sport game than a shooter, or perhaps even a group-based RPG. Ages are spent getting your team just right before you even start the game. If you jump into a football game with just whatever random players, you will likely lose and have a bad experience. If you are playing with some friends, however, you can have a lot of fun even with all last-string players on the worst fields.

This is what is happening with GOIO, and why people come and go so fast. It does not matter what balancing is done if people are getting the wrong impression of what type of game it is and playing it solo.

Guns is a great game, which I have enjoyed through its changes. It is not Muse's fault at all that most people do not quite understand exactly what it is. If you were to make an identical game using giant robots and slap the Mechwarrior label on it, you would have similarly confused players, and a high cycle rate.

It is the unique play that we love that is our largest handicap in player retention. The only thing that can be done about that would be different advertizing, stronger emphasis on team communication, and more fluid tutorials. Even then, most players may just not like this type of gameplay.

[Mod Josie]

It should have been exciting and nail-biting. However, with the complete lack of 'human' element, it was actually almost boring. The other crew might as well have been AI.
Guns is a team and strategy-building game, pure and simple. It is more like a sport game than a shooter, or perhaps even a group-based RPG. Ages are spent getting your team just right before you even start the game.
It does not matter what balancing is done if people are getting the wrong impression of what type of game it is and playing it solo.
Guns is a great game, which I have enjoyed through its changes. It is not Muse's fault at all that most people do not quite understand exactly what it is.

These points are beautiful and must be stressed - therefore I am repeating them as a summary.

[Omniraptor]

Maybe one day a better game will come along and I will abandon this community for the other one. When that day comes I hope to drag as many of you with me as possible. You are all splendid folk.

My money is on star citizen. It's basically adventure mode in space, except with more boarding and a generally higher budget.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

My money is on star citizen. It's basically adventure mode in space, except with more boarding and a generally higher budget.

You think you have FPS issues in GOIO lol. That uses Cryegine4 on a MMO scale. I know it's a beter optimised engine, but it's still the engine that is used by Ryse:Son of Rome witch was designed to showcase harware/graphical capabilities of XBOXOne. Rysse is much less ambitius and smaler scale game than Star Citizen. Yeah I don't trust Star Citizen to run smoothly on midrange gaming rigs. Oh sure it will probably be a great game, but I'm not overly interested in something I might not be able to play when it comes out.

Even if I can play Star Citizen, I won't leave this game as long as I have people to play this game with.

[Mod Josie]

Even if I can play Star Citizen, I won't leave this game as long as I have people to play this game with.

Likewise! I wouldn't dream of leaving this game for another. Makes it sound far too objectified; this game and its community are something far more than something you can just abandon. They are colourful, quirky, charming. This game has given me so many wonderful memories and has let me 'meet' so many interesting and beautiful people with whom I see eye to eye - all of whom I would never of had the pleasure of interacting with if this game were not in my Steam Library.
Be faithful, old chaps, this game has got a lot more to offer us. This year, if not all other years, will be of particular note. I can't wait to see what happens to this game over the coming year. Adventure mode and everything that comes with it is going to give us a whole new experience, all coloured and built off the foundations of the fantastic game we know and love today.
I can't wait to still be a part of this community when that happens.

[Spud Nick]

I looked at star citizen's kickstarter page and they didn't even list Sky Whales as a stretch goal.

[Omniraptor]

Close enough? https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13087-System-Unlock-Nemo

[Coldcurse]

I looked at star citizen's kickstarter page and they didn't even list Sky Whales as a stretch goal.

Lets drag them in court!

[Thomas]

I'm a little late to the party, but here goes.


Players are important for any game, and developers always want to keep retention high. Having that not be on high on their to-do list is a quick way to get to failure town.

The big issues stated by the OP weren't actually brought up by Muse themselves, but by the players.

Team scramble, choosing the spawns, weapon and ship balances, etc were all issues players brought up and discussed well before Muse addressed them.

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That's not to say all the players wanted it, but you'll never get all the players to agree on anything. Depending on what circles you spend your time in, you'll get a different 'general impression' upon what players want. Muse decides to listen to everyone and evaluate their ideas and suggestions. They don't focus on just the hardcore players, or only think about the casual gamers. They look at what support players give ideas, as well as the negative reactions to those ideas.

The spawn system for example was something that was brought up quite some time ago, but was pretty low on their to-do list. Balance tends to be near the top, because that's what makes the game fun and exciting. Speaking of balance, the 'nerfs' to close range weapons was probably well called for. The latest updates weren't really all that detrimental. I think the gatling actually received more of a buff despite the range reduction. So while a lot of the guns were adjusted, they're all still viable.

http://www.cracked.com/video_18537_the-7-deadly-sins-online-gaming.html

That video sums up a lot of gaming sins. In particular, #7 Pride brings up what occurred prior to the balance adjustments. Players would find a ship/gun combo that worked alarmingly well, and just stick with it. It's not playing unfair, but that particular build would be so effective, that the only way to beat it in most instances was using the same build as them, only doing it better. This is what would lead certain clans to timing distance and counting bullets on these builds to minimize kill times. Currently a larger variety of builds are viable, making the game more interesting.





Skipping on down to player retention again, you can just view the current steam charts. Being the person that brought these up in the first place while talking about player retention, the first thing I notice is that the rate of player loss has decreased quite a bit compared to most of the player influxes. It's still too soon to see how it will ultimately play out, but you also have to take into account the conditions of the influx. Schools were out for break, the game was on sale, and fans of the youtubers saw them playing it. Now schools are back in session, the game is no longer on sale, and the youtubers aren't focusing on this game. The player count was guaranteed to decrease, but we have yet to see if it bottoms out to the original norms, or if it'll stay a tad higher (or maybe even bounce up a bit).