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Gameplay / Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« on: May 14, 2013, 09:52:59 am »I get where you are trying to go with this, but I can't wrap my head around them patching it half way to see what happens. It comes off as a nerf.
I never said it wasn't a nerf. Really, it's a nerf by any other name; just one that- I think- opens the floor for future improvements in the process.
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Gameplay / Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« on: May 13, 2013, 04:14:19 pm »It's like the fire nerf to me. I didn't really see a need to nerf it, so the fact it had been was kind of confusing to me.
That's actually a very apt analogy, because I feel like they were both changed for the same reason: to add more design space. (This is just my postulation, I obviously can't speak for Awkm here)
The carronade was always balanced on a razor's edge because there are two important factors to consider:
A. It needs to be able to keep a ship's balloon suppressed even against repair efforts, and drive a ship into the ground under its own power. If it doesn't, it's of no use as a weapon.
B. It needs to be able to give the opponent a reasonable chance at counterattacking or otherwise recovering. If it doesn't, it's a game-breaking weapon.
Between them, there isn't a lot of 'wiggle room' to balance the carronade. Previously, one could consider making it weaker, but then you risk botching point A; and every point of damage you add to it complicates issue B exponentially. But, since it presently can't point downward to pop an enemy ship's balloon while remaining out of range of any sort of counterattack, Issue B is now far less of a factor. And consequentially this opens up a lot more room to work with the carronade as a weapon. Not only does it make it so that its use has higher risk, but it means that it can also be given higher reward. Heck, now that engagement against a carronade-ship is more of a direct option, this means it could actually be made stronger and faster in doing what it does- do you think we, as a playerbase have ever even considered that as a reasonable possibility before?
Similarly, the changes to the way fire worked did more than just reel back the damage and effectiveness of flamethrowers; they made it so that fire had more factors involved in how it would impact a battle. And with each of those factors comes another way to make it work in a way conducive to good gameplay and good game balance.
And, like I'd said before, I consider both the changes to be incomplete solutions; but thanks to the fact that they're there, we can now look at fire and say, for example, "hmm, what if the amount of stacks to disabling a gun was raised/lowered/dependent on the weight class of the weapon"- something that would have been impossible if it had the binary effectiveness it had before- or look at a carronade and say "What if it popped balloons faster and forced enemies to disengage quicker/did more shatter damage to help slow down counterattacks/had a wider arc to make flybys more of a possibility and still give the enemy a chance to retaliate"- something that wouldn't have just been ridiculous if you were still able to fire it at a ship from high up and practically out of range.
The important thing about both changes is that they've opened up these possibilities, and brought about new ways to improve the game.
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Gameplay / Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« on: May 13, 2013, 11:25:08 am »
I'm going to crosspost and refine my arguments from the Artemis thread if you all don't mind.
A carronade is a weapon that's stuck in an odd design niche; it needs to- practically by definition- be able to keep an enemy ship's balloon disabled even through repair attempts and ultimately does seek to kill the enemy ship by running it into the ground. it was problematic for the same reason that the Artemis was pre-nerf and the Mercury was pre-spillover-fix; You don't want to be able to have a kill-strategy that wins with minimal chance for interaction by the enemy ship. Its use in forcing disengagements was a an emergent use based on its ability to put the opponent out of a range where they can counterattack.
Not to say that it has only that use or that it should have only that use, mind, but that bit of definition needs to be taken into account. Even if you were using it primarly as a support weapon to force a ship out of engagement, it was still- if used as a dedicated offense- able to deny them the ability to engage until they broke on the proverbial rocks.
And Smollett- I love you right back, but most of the solutions you've offered are either means to delay the inevitable (Drogue chute only slows your descent and will not bring you level with your opponent and well-timed shots based around the rebuilds will hamstring your engineers' work) or simply nonsolutions (Hydrogen on a freshly-repaired balloon is a good way to give your enemy a leg up in breaking it and good luck getting the buff going in time)- using Kerosene to rush away/to a teammate is probably the best solution you've given and is certainly the most reliable one in actual combat, but it also potentially means that when you re-engage you're just going to start the cycle over and possibly end up in the same situation- not to mention it relies on your opponent not having a means to bridge the gap. I'd personally toss in "dive under the opponent's ship to shake their lock" as an option but even that one relies on the opposing captain not being able to see it coming/respond quickly- and, if they know what they're doing, it's a fairly easy maneuver to counter.
Let me clarify- I don't think the carronade is a "broken" strategy, and certainly not an overpowered one. But I do think that- due to the issues I'd discussed above- it's problematic, because it can severely reduce the level of interactivity between ships/players that makes GoI stand out so much in the first place. Making the carronade more interactive with the opponent in its use is hardly the worst way to approach the problem, even if it is- as you've all observed, especially regarding the ships that rely on the disabling tactic and the hit arc favoring the hull over the balloon- an incomplete solution. But the fact that it even offers a means of approach to the interactivity issue also means that it opens up new ways the weapon can be tweaked, balanced, and enhanced.
A carronade is a weapon that's stuck in an odd design niche; it needs to- practically by definition- be able to keep an enemy ship's balloon disabled even through repair attempts and ultimately does seek to kill the enemy ship by running it into the ground. it was problematic for the same reason that the Artemis was pre-nerf and the Mercury was pre-spillover-fix; You don't want to be able to have a kill-strategy that wins with minimal chance for interaction by the enemy ship. Its use in forcing disengagements was a an emergent use based on its ability to put the opponent out of a range where they can counterattack.
Not to say that it has only that use or that it should have only that use, mind, but that bit of definition needs to be taken into account. Even if you were using it primarly as a support weapon to force a ship out of engagement, it was still- if used as a dedicated offense- able to deny them the ability to engage until they broke on the proverbial rocks.
And Smollett- I love you right back, but most of the solutions you've offered are either means to delay the inevitable (Drogue chute only slows your descent and will not bring you level with your opponent and well-timed shots based around the rebuilds will hamstring your engineers' work) or simply nonsolutions (Hydrogen on a freshly-repaired balloon is a good way to give your enemy a leg up in breaking it and good luck getting the buff going in time)- using Kerosene to rush away/to a teammate is probably the best solution you've given and is certainly the most reliable one in actual combat, but it also potentially means that when you re-engage you're just going to start the cycle over and possibly end up in the same situation- not to mention it relies on your opponent not having a means to bridge the gap. I'd personally toss in "dive under the opponent's ship to shake their lock" as an option but even that one relies on the opposing captain not being able to see it coming/respond quickly- and, if they know what they're doing, it's a fairly easy maneuver to counter.
Let me clarify- I don't think the carronade is a "broken" strategy, and certainly not an overpowered one. But I do think that- due to the issues I'd discussed above- it's problematic, because it can severely reduce the level of interactivity between ships/players that makes GoI stand out so much in the first place. Making the carronade more interactive with the opponent in its use is hardly the worst way to approach the problem, even if it is- as you've all observed, especially regarding the ships that rely on the disabling tactic and the hit arc favoring the hull over the balloon- an incomplete solution. But the fact that it even offers a means of approach to the interactivity issue also means that it opens up new ways the weapon can be tweaked, balanced, and enhanced.
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Gameplay / Re: Artemis Rocket Launcher
« on: May 13, 2013, 11:05:31 am »Lets shift the carronade conversation over there to the GUNS thread and out of the artemis thread.
Agreed. Apologies for my indiscretion.
So, yeah, my two cents on the Artemis is that I think the lack of upward arc hurts it. Yup.
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Gameplay / Re: Artemis Rocket Launcher
« on: May 13, 2013, 10:53:30 am »Meta, you know I love you but I couldn't possibly disagree with you more on this. The whole entire utility of the carronade was to be able to keep a single ship locked down and unable to return fire without doing much to actually kill the ship.
What you're talking about is an emergent use based on its ability to put the opponent out of a range where they can counterattack. A carronade is a weapon that's stuck in an odd design niche; it needs to- practically by definition- be able to keep an enemy ship's balloon disabled even through repair attempts and ultimately does seek to kill the enemy ship by running it into the ground. it was problematic for the same reason that the Artemis was pre-nerf and the Mercury was pre-spillover-fix; You don't want to be able to have a kill-strategy that wins with minimal chance for interaction by the enemy ship.
Not to say that it has only that use or that it should have only that use, mind, but that bit of definition needs to be taken into account. Even if you were using it primarly as a support weapon to force a ship out of engagement, it was still- if used as a dedicated offense- able to deny them the ability to engage until they broke on the proverbial rocks.
There really was never a problem that needed a solution in the first place however, as I listed previously in this thread multiple solutions to extract a ship from a balloon lock.
There's some nebulous statements in this thread based on 'if the captain knows what he's doing' against a lumberjack but nothing specific and nothing posted by you on the matter. Are you sure you posted it in this thread? I don't see it...
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Gameplay / Re: Artemis Rocket Launcher
« on: May 13, 2013, 01:07:48 am »
I'm a little confused as to why it's so heavily skewed to a downward aiming angle. Previously, it could be used to help fend off/halt an assault when your ship was already in a disadvantageous position or while making a low escape; for a gun whose main appeal over similar weapons is its ability to neuter an enemy's offense and allow a chance at recovery, not being able to aim up very far hurts it a lot and makes it a much, much less appealing option when put beside raw damage like a flak cannon. Is there some rationale I'm missing here?
But, really, that's my only complaint so far. Seems reasonable enough at the present in all other regards, though I think it was fine before its buff and subsequent nerf- after all, we didn't get to see how it fared with the ship changes pre-buff, right?
Carronades not being able to point down as far, however, is a very, very good idea; a ship can still keep a balloon down, but now it's forced into a more vulnerable/less untouchable attack range that allows for some counterattack potential. Actually a pretty elegant solution to the how-do-you-recover-from-a-carronade issue.
But, really, that's my only complaint so far. Seems reasonable enough at the present in all other regards, though I think it was fine before its buff and subsequent nerf- after all, we didn't get to see how it fared with the ship changes pre-buff, right?
Carronades not being able to point down as far, however, is a very, very good idea; a ship can still keep a balloon down, but now it's forced into a more vulnerable/less untouchable attack range that allows for some counterattack potential. Actually a pretty elegant solution to the how-do-you-recover-from-a-carronade issue.
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General Discussion / Re: Fitting Music?
« on: April 28, 2013, 10:34:52 pm »Anything composed by Nobuo Uematsu will, for the most part, hit the right tone for me.
Pardon? I mean, sure, he does sweeping orchestral scores and whatnot but the guy loves his 1970s Emerson Lake and Palmer-style progressive rock organ pieces too. That's kind of a broad spectrum, isn't it?
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General Discussion / Re: Fitting Music?
« on: April 26, 2013, 10:03:34 pm »
My first nomination: Madness, the flight theme off the Porco Rosso soundtrack. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPhzp2tj_QE
My second would probably be the Ace Combat Zero soundtrack. I find myself listening to the Hresvelgr motif (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oNWGxerWsk) in tense moments, the Round Table theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl2C28hMN2U) for less cautious dogfighting, and the music from the Gelb duel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3GZv_pjoI) when it's down to the wire. Or if I'm just feeling like a straight-up badass, one word: Zero. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGjwXI0n5-I)
Now for some less videogame-geeky tunes: Holst's Mars: The Bringer of War is a classic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0bcRCCg01I), or maybe Khachaturian's Sabre Dance if it's one of... those games. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXHOB1s56zc)
I'll post more when I think of 'em.
My second would probably be the Ace Combat Zero soundtrack. I find myself listening to the Hresvelgr motif (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oNWGxerWsk) in tense moments, the Round Table theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl2C28hMN2U) for less cautious dogfighting, and the music from the Gelb duel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3GZv_pjoI) when it's down to the wire. Or if I'm just feeling like a straight-up badass, one word: Zero. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGjwXI0n5-I)
Now for some less videogame-geeky tunes: Holst's Mars: The Bringer of War is a classic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0bcRCCg01I), or maybe Khachaturian's Sabre Dance if it's one of... those games. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXHOB1s56zc)
I'll post more when I think of 'em.
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The Pit / Re: Hello there Grixis
« on: April 26, 2013, 09:08:25 pm »Performing an unknown action on the forums huh? Whatcha doing Grixis? Inquiring minds want to know.
The internet is watching you o.o
Well that's a cruel ultimatum.
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The Lounge / Re: Introductions!
« on: April 24, 2013, 02:28:08 pm »
I swear I manage to come in late on the introductions thread every time it comes around. But better late than never.
I'm Metafive, your friendly Community Ambassador and obnoxiously vocal proponent of arthropod awesomeness. I've been here since Beta and I have to say it's wondrous seeing how great the game and community have become since then. I'm a graduate biologist by day... but by night, I'm the captain of the Beast of Burden, a retrofitted cargo junker carrying enough missiles and bullets to chisel a mountain down to an anthill. So think twice before you decide to take a shot at her cargo lest we decide to unload it at high speed all in your direction.
In all seriousness, I'm just a captain or crewman like any other; I have a regular crew but I'm always fond of helping to give newcomers their air legs, so please feel free to join me ingame if you see me. I'll also moonlight as a mechanic now and then, of course. Don't believe the rumors; I'm actually quite nice, and I assure you my left eye does not see into the future.
Baron's Best Squadron Strong.
I'm Metafive, your friendly Community Ambassador and obnoxiously vocal proponent of arthropod awesomeness. I've been here since Beta and I have to say it's wondrous seeing how great the game and community have become since then. I'm a graduate biologist by day... but by night, I'm the captain of the Beast of Burden, a retrofitted cargo junker carrying enough missiles and bullets to chisel a mountain down to an anthill. So think twice before you decide to take a shot at her cargo lest we decide to unload it at high speed all in your direction.
In all seriousness, I'm just a captain or crewman like any other; I have a regular crew but I'm always fond of helping to give newcomers their air legs, so please feel free to join me ingame if you see me. I'll also moonlight as a mechanic now and then, of course. Don't believe the rumors; I'm actually quite nice, and I assure you my left eye does not see into the future.
Baron's Best Squadron Strong.
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The Lounge / Re: The most glorious Quotes ever
« on: March 26, 2013, 01:14:01 pm »
"What the fuck is a Manticore?!"
-awkm
-awkm
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The Gallery / Re: Guns of Icarus Online Cosplay
« on: March 24, 2013, 12:50:24 am »If that's you; leave your phone number in my messages; if not; leave his phone number in my messages
'Fraid I'm spoken for and quite proud of it. But I'll try and get some color photos from PAX as consolation.
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The Gallery / Re: Guns of Icarus Online Cosplay
« on: March 23, 2013, 10:34:58 am »
I'll be appearing at PAX in this on Sunday.