Messages

1

Gameplay / Re: Carronades 1.3.2

« on: October 03, 2013, 05:50:58 pm »

Which is why I don't get all the whining, the kill builds are still the most dangerous things you have to worry about.

And that's the thing about game design. You are absolutely right. There is no objective reason to hate the carronade. But people feel powerless fighting against it. Like I said, as bad as the metamidion was, it was at least an easy tactics for new players against the carronades, it made them feel powerful.

I still don't think the massive power the LJ has at range is justified, especially since the Power/Skill ratio of that gun gets screwed up the closer your target gets. So unless you are the guy that can't hit a brick wall at about 600 meters with that gun while using Lesmok, then I feel bad for you ...

I have to agree. I haven't thought so much about it but it seems more broken than any gun, yet nobody cares .  People don't feel powerless, maybe because they have other long range guns to fight a lumberjack. And there are other guns to effectively snipe.

I straight out disagree with the bolded part. Just because a ship is slower or has its guns on the side, doesn't mean it takes more skill to use, it's just a DIFFERENT style of play.

Again, objectively you are right. But  watch a match of new players. With bloody beginners. What they do, consistently, with whatever ship they happened to take is charge. Even if it is a Spire. Always. That's why I consider Goldfish and Pyra easy ships, beginners can do with them what they would do anyways. I am betting my left nut that this is why the pyra has two front-facing guns. So new player have a ship they can actually use and not feel useless, powerless.

I'm not saying the LJ is a clear skill upgrade to the carronade, but it sure as hell is close to being one, which is why I don't want to see further changes to nerf the carronades more.

And uhm... I completely agree. There is a problem though, people do feel powerless against it. So a counter strategy may not be accessible enough. Or a good alternative for a close range gun for that matter. But it isn't the carronade's fault, as I wrote before.

I remember my experience with the blenderfish. In beginner matches had to fight Hwacha Galleons. Always Hwacha Galeons. It made you feel powerless. You came close, got disabled and were completely useless. Then I stumbled over the Blenderfish. I intuitively learned to sneak up on ships, it was the first empowering experience, I learned something new and I now had a tactic in my repertoire. My first real tactic. Exactly the experience described in the video. And carronades are not very often used in competitive games. The blenderfish is essentially the Noobtube of GOIO, giving new players a positive experience and hooking them up for more. It needs to be easy and it needs to be powerful.

I am starting to write the same thing twice so I stop writing.

2

Gameplay / Re: Carronades 1.3.2

« on: October 03, 2013, 04:35:04 pm »

All in all this game is a bit on the simple side and I doupt something like what's described in that video could be possible in this game.

For example, a Lumberjack will always pop your balloon and there is nothing else you can do with it, or some advanced move to excecute that will pop enemy balloons 'better' other than learning how to aim, and well as there is nothing else an enemy can do about it other than:

What? High Power for low amount of Skill? The Pyramidion enbodies this as pure as it gets.

And the Lumberjack is an example for high skill to power ratio, it needs skill and knowledge of both the pilot and the gunner. And you need a Wingman able to survive two ships. Yeah you can annoy enemy ships, but when they kill your ally without you killing anyone... Plus I personally haven't fought a Lumberspire on long range yet, but I think with the new Artemis we might have a weapon to counter this gun.

And we won't have the same discussions about the Lumberjack as it is. There are other viable long range setups (new Flak much?), which take less skill and are more reliable than a Lumberjack. Yes it is very powerful, as it should be. I have seen many matches where a lumberjack setup backfired.

And the Heavy Carronade, with heavy round, is really not so close range weapon. That a little closer range, than gatling, for example. And no, i don't see a point in getting longer reload time - that not the problem, i think. But a closer range - yes.

Then why should the carronade suddenly be OP? The range increase only has a placebo effect. I think the reason why it suddenly feels OP is because we had the charging gat/mortar pyra which took even less skill and was even more powerful.

Lets count what we have for close range:
Mines: Minejunker ftw, but not for new players. Otherwise it is a support weapon.
Flaregun: The Support weapon of the support weapon.
Flamethrower: Nice, but the same job can be done by the carronade
Carronade: dito.
(Mortar): Very good killer especially at close range, but since the gat changes not as useful as before.

Carronade it is then.

And with all the counter stuff, let's take the Galleon and the Junker as an example. They are good, they can be very good in the right hands but require more skill than a pyra or goldfish. If a new player is fed up with Galleons, tell him to take a blenderfish. Tell him how the gun works and be done with it. It requires less skill than a Galleon and a Junker and is very powerful against them. That doesn't mean he will always win, there are good tactics for Galleons and Junkers to kill a blenderfish. But it is an easy tactic that empowers the new player. So the other way around takes more skill, and that is fine too.

What people are saying though is how much more skill you need to fight a blenderfish. This problem didn't exist before, then you could basically took the metamidion. But now what do we have to fight a blenderfish at close range? Nothing which takes slightly more skill. It takes a lot more skill and experience to fight it and that is what people are complaining about. But that is not the guns fault! Changing the guns is just fighting the symptoms and not the cause.

3

Gameplay / Re: Carronades 1.3.2

« on: October 03, 2013, 01:56:03 pm »

In short, I think the Carronades aren't OP.

Here is the long answer:
Many people say that the Carronades are OP, because they require generally a small amount of skills for a very successful strategy. But that is simply wrong in terms of game design, here is why: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w.

We need strong carronades, I consider them pretty much to be a hard counter to Junker and Galleons. If we weaken them, we make those ships indirectly even more useful. Most of us will agree that those ships of all don't need a boost.

When you carefully read the comments you should notice that the disagreement is not in how powerful the carronades are, but how accessible, how easy counter strategies are. How much skill/knowledge you have to gain in order to counter the carronades.
The other point is, after the latest patch we gained a lot of different options for medium/long range, which was earlier just mercury and gat/mortar/flak combo. But for short range, the Carronades are pretty much the best choice there is. There is no OBVIOUS short range combo that can be used against the carronade.
On longer range though, we do have effective choices, but adapting to a long range strategy might be a bigger learning curve for newer players.

So maybe what we really need is a good, easier to find short range counter to the carronade. It should be harder to execute, that is fine. But it should be a very obvious counter, so that players can say: "I may not be able to right now, but I know how I can put an end to those pesky Blenderfishes!"

To summarize: in this thread, we already hit some solutions. But they are all worthless as long as we haven't nailed down the problem we are trying to solve. Some people are pissed off at the carronade and bring forward solution to a problem we haven't yet nailed, bad solutions in short. That doesn't mean their reasons to hate the carronade are wrong too.

To summarize the summary: Go flamewar lulz

4

Gameplay / Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2

« on: October 02, 2013, 03:16:38 am »

The problem really becomes when there is no foreseeable counter to them. (excluding more carronades)

Merc/Artemis and mind your distance. Everything else is upon your crew actually hitting the gun, the map and captain teamwork.
I don't have the same issues especially since the new patch where we have more viable setups than gat/mortar.

Fighting against very experienced captains is always hard. The other captain can be a new guy with the right ship, it doesn't matter as long as he/she does communicate. This is how I started and anihilated better teams, I had a very good captain on my side telling me what to do. The carronade only amplifies this, since the hardest part of it is to positioning your ship correctly imo.
Also, fighting good squids is hard, there are so few of them that it is really difficult to develop tactics.

I spent all night trying different set-ups (a lumberjack/merc/artemis spire seemed the best, followed by a regular mobula build) and in the end it never mattered. Team with the most carronades wins...

I think fighting a carronade ship is less about the ship/layout and more about position, vision and usage of cover. Just don't take the Junker.
I consider a Merc long range Spire a hard counter to carronade ships. If it didn't work, then the enemy was able to outsmart you. Which isn't something to be ashamed of when you fight a lvl 10, somebody who practiced outsmarting people.

I vehemently disagree on "most carronades wins...". No, I was able to fight two blenderfishs WITH A JUNKER, while my wingman was busy chasing his tail. The only thing I had was a trifecta with two artemis' and an able crew. They couldn't even kill me once, their gun was disabled before they came close. They were obviously not lvl 10 captains. But still, I had a Junker...

5

Gameplay / Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2

« on: September 25, 2013, 12:13:41 pm »

It seems like Carronades are the new Field Guns lol.

It even gets ironic when you realize that the Field gun is a hard counter 

The idea of two blenderfish seems to be extremely overpowered, but in practice, not nearly as good as they would seem... The lack of actual double blender use in goi reflects this reality.

pretty much that.

I don't think the Carronades are overpowered. I think the reason we see some people complaining about it is that you can run a successful blenderfish with marginal skill on both pilot and crew. And as others said before, getting killed by it takes frustrating time in which you can't really do anything but extend the time you have left. You can't react. Countering it takes a little more effort, a little more knowledge and a little more teamwork. It is extremely effective, it just requires a bit more effort on your end.

GOIO also need ships like the blenderfish and the Pyra, those are very rewarding ships for beginners, ships that will hook 'em up for more.

Then we have had totally different experiences with a Hwacha-fish. I can kill and disable quite handily, especially because I can control my engagement so well with a Goldfish over a Spire or Galleon. It kills very well when hitting bare hull (time it like flak) and can wreak havoc on ships.

Yeah you are right, totally different experiences then . I never piloted nor served on a successfull Hwachafish. I would like to see you fly.

6

Gameplay / Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2

« on: September 25, 2013, 04:45:54 am »

I don't think the Hwacha is a useful gun for the Goldfish.

It can't kill and it takes longer to effectively disable. For me the Carronade is the better disabler, now more so than ever with the smaller cone of fire and bigger range. The Hwachafish is more of a nuisance than an issue.
The Flak is only useful if you have a wingman with good armor stripping capabilities. Maybe a sniping junker or something like that. Otherwise the Flakfish is no threat but a liability.

So yeah, Carronade it is, unless you have a good gunner then you can think about a Lumberjack. For me the Goldfish only has 1 and 1/2 gun choices.

7

Gameplay / Re: I have such a weird Junker... Questions and Discussion

« on: September 25, 2013, 03:48:55 am »

Since the patch there are a lot more viable builds for any ship. So I think the junker is now an even more diverse ship. So why don't we share our new setups and throw around some odd ideas?

artemis front, hades/artemis and gat/artemis side. Works fairly well as a disabler build. it doesn't kill as fast but is still a very fun ship to run.

Artemis front, hades/flak and carronade/mortar side as a general brawler.

Flak front, hades/hades and gat/gat side. I have no idea if this could actually work, maybe with a good crew...

8

Gameplay / Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2

« on: September 24, 2013, 03:42:26 am »

So many viable fun builds to play now. I just played a junker with front artemis and artemis/gat on the side and I enjoyed it. It didn't kill as fast but it is a viable build against the 1 1/2 ships like pyra/goldfish.

In Short: the Game has just become even more interesting, thank you!

9

Gameplay / Re: PILOTING and PILOT SKILLS Balance v1.3.2

« on: September 23, 2013, 01:51:22 pm »

OK I think the nerf makes sense now.

My thing is just that the height tools aren't very useful to begin with. As you said, chute vent is only really useful on a blenderfish. Maybe decreasing the damage but increase the time it stays effective can help with that. So it can be used to travel great distances in height, but not for short quick boosts/drops as it is currently used.

10

Gameplay / Re: PILOTING and PILOT SKILLS Balance v1.3.2

« on: September 19, 2013, 04:50:09 pm »

I think Hydrogen/Chute Vent weren't that useful helm tools before the patch. The Risk was very high for a mild gain. Now the risk with Chute Vent is even higher. I only used the hydrogen on slow ships to evade the inevitable charging pyra and chute vent on the Blenderfish to momentarily get away from Merc gun arcs.

It probably won't stop me from using it, it is just getting less appealing to me.

11

Gameplay / Re: I have such a weird Junker... Questions and Discussion

« on: September 19, 2013, 04:46:12 pm »

Since the patch, the Flak pretty much died for me as a short/medium range permahull killer. DPS is lower and the arming time really sucks for this job.

I dislike the mortar as a permahull killer because it is very unreliable in terms of dps on medium range.

What do you think, is the Rocket Carousel now a viable medium range killer?

12

Gameplay / Re: I have such a weird Junker... Questions and Discussion

« on: September 16, 2013, 03:44:54 am »

I didn't like the Merc as a Junker sidegun. I can't get a trifecta working, so I think it makes sense to either take 2 Mercs on the side or none at all. Merc + 1 Artemis wasn't rewarding in any way.

The banshee could be a cool long range gun too, with heavy clip it can hit stuff well. But yeah, in it's current state it isn't very useful.

So I don't know, 2 Artemis' seem fun, but I am unsure for the third trifecta gun. Maybe a flak? It as a decent arc and hitting with it is easy.

On a general note, I've found myself prefering the flak over the mortar as the general brawler killer, nimbler ships like goldfish, pyra etc. With the mortar the enemy ship could often flee out of effective range. Also my random crew was in general more proficient in hitting things with the flak.

13

Gameplay / I have such a weird Junker... Questions and Discussion

« on: September 15, 2013, 08:40:53 am »

I think the Junker is THE most diverse ship. You can almost run any layout successfully as long as you have the crew supporting it. And here lies the problem. There is exaclty one tp organize a Pyramidion, but I feel like you have many different ways to organize a Junker crew, all with their perks and pitfalls.

So I'd like to ask some questions about the Junker I currently think of running, any feedback is appreciated.

Layout
Portside is meant for long range and starboard for standard brawling.
Front: Artemis
Port Top: Artemis
Port Lower: Banshee
Starboard Top: Mortar
Starboard Lower: Gattling

I ran triple Artemis yesteday, it didn't really do anything but annoy the enemy and I think disabling can be done almost as well with 2 artemis'. I also ran Artemis front, lower and mercury on top. I didn't like it, the small turning circle prevented any trifecta so I didn't like it either.
So I want to try the banshee, I put it there so the lower deck so no engineer has to take heavy clip with him.

Crew Layout:
Gunner: Heavy, greased and ammo of his choice. Spanner as repair tool
engi 1: Standard layout + lesmok
engi 2: Standart layout + lesmok
pilot: Hydrogen + spanner + lesmok, i am not sure about the other pilot tools.

The idea is that everybody takes the same ammo so everybody can man a gun and doesn't have to reload it first.

My main problem is currently, how can I organize the engineers?

I mostly piloted Pyras and Goldfishes before, I am used to run and hide if I am get engaged from the blind spot or if the engagement gets bad. With the Junker I simply can't. So I have to position myself and not rely on my speed, but how do I find a good position? What do I do when things turn out bad?

14

Gameplay / Re: Trifecta fire

« on: September 15, 2013, 06:27:45 am »

I just experimented with the Junker: gat top, mortar and a gat up front.

At closer range the gats can just barely hit the target (mortar was out of arc) But the pilot has zero margin of error and the gunners no arc to compensate for ship movements. On medium range at least the gunners have a respectable arc to work with as long as the pilot is accurate with his positioning.

I think a gat up front can work if you have an able and chatty crew who also know what the pilot wants to achieve. I can imagine this being a charging pyra killer. Double gat on the approaching target and then just shred them to pieces with medium/close range mortar.

15

Gameplay / Re: The Hellfish, or PIKABOO! Ideas and questions about the Hellhound Goldfish

« on: August 03, 2013, 08:33:24 am »

Wooow, I didn't expect that many replies. Thanks so far for your replies, they were very informative.

I am trying to summarize the info here:

Shooting on a component will damage the hull, if the component is destroyed. Thanks, I didn't know that. I assume you still get the damage penalty for the hull, right? Shooting the destroyed balloon doesn't give you the damage multiplier of the flechette type, it is the same multiplier as if you would have shot the hull directly. But the balloon is a bigger target, more pellets will hit the enemy. This is why you should keep shooting the balloon, right?

Layout:
Portside Gun (Support): Artemis or Flaregun are two possibilities depending on the enemy and the map. Although I didn't like the Flaregun much on the Goldfish even on close maps like Labyrinth. Shooting Flares in the cloud also destroys your cover and I feel cover is something the Goldfish needs more than other ships like the Junker. So if I take a flaregun with me, Tar seems an essential pilot tool. This gun will be manned by the top engineeer who is also buffing.

Starboard Gun (Killer): Mortar or Flak. Banshee is out because it doesn't do as much damage to the permahull as the other two and incinerating can be better done with the Hellhound. Am I right in assuming that the mortar is a better kill weapon on the Blenderfish, if my main engi is a good shot?

Team:
Gunner: Heavy Clip as general ammo for long and close range. Lochnagar for increasing DPS on both LONG AND CLOSE range, right? Incindiary for inducing panick if I am going in for the kill. As repair tool he should take a spanner with him to rebuild the gun asap.

Top Engineer: Mallet, Spanner, Buff or Wrench, Buff, Fire Ext if I am scared of fires. If he mans the Artemis, he should take burst rounds with him.

Main Engineer: Standard tools plus Greased rounds for Mortar or Charged for Flak.

Tactics:
Alright, so far I thought of the Hellhound as mainly a balloon destroying weapon, I haven't tried destroying components with it yet, but apparantly this works as well.

If I want to disable a ship that has it's back turned to me, I tell the gunner to shoot a volley of heavy clip on the engines and the second volley of lochnagar on the balloon, since it generally has a huge amount of health. If I am lucky, I already popped the balloon and can either go for the kill or disable a second ship. Is this sort of what you wanted to tell me?

If I want to kill a disabled ship, I sent the buff engi to the front to help with the gun repairs, tell the gunner to shoot one volley of incindiary and then as much Lochnagar as possible without breaking the gun. If he stripped the enemy ship of it's armor, I slightly turn so the main engi can shoot a volley of Mortar/Flak for the final blow. Rinse and repeat.

As a close range escape, I tried diving below the enemy ship a few times and it worked out great. Afterwards I am in a great position to rise up behind them and wreak havoc.

I start to think that piloting a successful Blenderfish is mainly bound to how well the pilot can communicate with his team, more so than on other ships. On a standard Gat/Flak Junker, you mainly have to man the gun and shoot at what the pilot tells you to shoot. But here you have to shoot the right target at the right component with the right ammo and preferably buffed.


After all your replies, I feel like I can almost write a Blenderfish guide thanks a lot! I really enjoy the friendly GOIO Community.