Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Captain Davy Jones on May 13, 2013, 05:18:24 pm
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I think this game would become an amazing E-sport and could gain a lot of popularity among the competitive gaming community. I see you guys have been doing a lot to cater to competitive play. Something I've noticed among popular E-sports is the importance of the spectator system. Almost all big E-sport games I know of have great spectator systems in place. It will encourage people to watch streams/casted games to learn and for fun (like watching a real sport). I've seen the spectator system in place and I think it definitely needs work if you want to draw viewers. Please update this system asap (not pushing aside the importance of gameplay development of course). I believe this is an underrated method of developing a game into a popular competitive game. Looking forward to playing this game further and watching its' development!
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Hey Davy... I'm glad you like the game! To be honest, the spectator system has gone through massive improvements than what it has before... If you could, what kind of improvements did you have in mind?
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I only saw the early spectator system, I haven't seen the latest spectator system! Didn't realize it had been upgraded. I'll post again when I see it. I just wanted to stress that a superb spectator system can really payoff.
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From what I've seen, I have only seen relatively zoomed out shots of the battle. Is there a way you can spectate ships up closer or individual players? That way viewers can get a more gameplay-like view of what the players are doing. This way you could see what strategies certain crews are employing and see it from their point of view.
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When spectating, you'll notice that each ship has a number next to its name. Press that number on the keypad to focus and follow that ship. You can rotate around in close up and see the players, their ammo types, repair tools, and pilot tools. It displays what they're currently using, damage on the components, and repair/rebuild states.
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beat me to it :( how fast can you type on your phone Sunderland? geeze
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It would also be cool if potential casters of the game could click some kind of hotkey to bring up the specifications of the ship (Guns equipped, ship specs, players in each position) as well as ship status (hull damage, gun damage etc.). The most popular e-sports are the ones that make it a viewer experience. Most people I know who are into Starcraft watch more of it than they do play! It's like watching a sporting event.
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Thats cool, well than i'll just say that I want to stress the importance of the spectator system, maybe it is already good enough Idk. But I just wanted to put it out their that a good system pays off. I only want this game to succeed : )
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Ship status is already shown on the sides. There's a box for each ship that shows hull damage, balloon damage, and whether other parts are destroyed or not. For the other things, focusing is currently the only way. Might be interesting for there to be an option for those in the future.
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beat me to it :( how fast can you type on your phone Sunderland? geeze
I've gotten good at it after over 1800 posts :P
I only want this game to succeed : )
That's always great to hear. Your suggestions are obviously very much appreciated :)
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Thats cool, well than i'll just say that I want to stress the importance of the spectator system, maybe it is already good enough Idk. But I just wanted to put it out their that a good system pays off. I only want this game to succeed : )
*Insert helpful qwerty plug*
If you would like to give some feedback, we do have an official Streamer/commentator for our Cogs matches. I suggest watching some of his work, and see if this gives you the E-sport vibe :) (just watch out for the paddling matches, those can get a bit long (but do have some exciting bits)) That can be found here:
http://www.twitch.tv/qwerty2jam
Also the Occasionally Effective forums are here:
http://occasionallyeffective.guildlaunch.com/
Not used enough to provide feedback to qwerty imho.... everyone should head over there, and let him know that even though he was out for a bit, he's still doing a great job :P
*End qwerty plug*
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For the stage that this game is in I think the spectator system is pretty good. It can always use some improvement but it definitely has the necessities down. One thing I did notice when watching the last Cogs though was that commentators didn't go in for the closer view on ships as much as they could though. People (primarily those that aren't as into GoI) don't find much interest just watching the ships blasting at each other from a long distance, it is more exciting going in and seeing the players (most notably engineers) running around and working together. Find a good mix of the two types of views and you're golden.
Maybe I'll take a look at more of Qwerty's stuff to see if I can give more feedback. He has been doing a good job so far and I do thing e-sports in any competitive type game can be very beneficial to the community, the game, etc.
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Thats cool, well than i'll just say that I want to stress the importance of the spectator system, maybe it is already good enough Idk. But I just wanted to put it out their that a good system pays off. I only want this game to succeed : )
*Insert helpful qwerty plug*
If you would like to give some feedback, we do have an official Streamer/commentator for our Cogs matches. I suggest watching some of his work, and see if this gives you the E-sport vibe :) (just watch out for the paddling matches, those can get a bit long (but do have some exciting bits)) That can be found here:
Thanks!
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There's also the route dota 2 took to become a popular e-sport (other than good spectator mode) which was a relatively large tournament with a large prize pool. When competitive gamers saw how much they could make playing dota they flocked to it. Now, I realize that this was only possible because Dota 2 was developed by Valve who have a huge amount of revenue at their disposal, but money can be replaced with other rewards (maybe in game items that only tournament winners receive...or anything!). Maybe an in game tournament that happens every couple weeks with varying rewards would draw more players as well! Whatever you guys decide to do, I think the cog system is an awesome step in the right direction and I can't wait to see how this game develops.
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There's also the route dota 2 took to become a popular e-sport (other than good spectator mode) which was a relatively large tournament with a large prize pool. When competitive gamers saw how much they could make playing dota they flocked to it. Now, I realize that this was only possible because Dota 2 was developed by Valve who have a huge amount of revenue at their disposal, but money can be replaced with other rewards (maybe in game items that only tournament winners receive...or anything!). Maybe an in game tournament that happens every couple weeks with varying rewards would draw more players as well! Whatever you guys decide to do, I think the cog system is an awesome step in the right direction and I can't wait to see how this game develops.
An example of the in-game rewards you mention: Pretty much all smaller League of Legends tournaments that are aknowledged by Riot Games provide champion skin bundles, Riot Points, and a tournament exclusive Triumphant Ryze skin. With the way this game is built a very similar thing could be done.
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QWERTY's stream wasn't up but I watched one of his commentaries/spectating games on youtube, and almost all of it was an extremely zoomed out view of the ships flying around shooting each other. This made it extremely uninteresting and got bored within minutes. I think that it's ok to zoom out this far sometimes, but i think the majority of the time the camera should be focused closer to the ships, and maybe locked to them. I think it will be pretty difficult to develop a good way to show everyone the full scope of the battle, while making it close up.
Just came up with a possible idea (may not be plausible but i'll state it anyway) : Maybe allow spectators to run around on ships of their choosing so they can view battles as if they were on the ship (which they basically are) while remaining invisible to the actually players.
Also it could be cool to keep a constant status of each teams ships on each side of the screen (similar to how spectating works in certain mobas where you see one teams heroes/health/items on one side and the other teams heroes/health/items on the other).
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Qwerty is one man, catering to what was until last weekend a rather niche community. For major Esport coverage Muse would have to find a way of recording a match such that a single user could pause and rewind to view the action and all the variables from every angle, or there to be enough "Camera Men" to record the action on each ship and a director who can swap between channels to bring the best coverage.
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I <3 eSports, which is definitely the kind of spectator event Qwerty is trying to make the COGs.
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Just came up with a possible idea (may not be plausible but i'll state it anyway) : Maybe allow spectators to run around on ships of their choosing so they can view battles as if they were on the ship (which they basically are) while remaining invisible to the actually players.
Sounds like you just want to play the game. I find the overall battle more interesting to watch, because it shows positioning and tactics much better.
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Just came up with a possible idea (may not be plausible but i'll state it anyway) : Maybe allow spectators to run around on ships of their choosing so they can view battles as if they were on the ship (which they basically are) while remaining invisible to the actually players.
Sounds like you just want to play the game. I find the overall battle more interesting to watch, because it shows positioning and tactics much better.
Was talking about casters, not me.
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Just came up with a possible idea (may not be plausible but i'll state it anyway) : Maybe allow spectators to run around on ships of their choosing so they can view battles as if they were on the ship (which they basically are) while remaining invisible to the actually players.
I disagree with this part from a spectating commentating standpoint. You don't want to limit the screen to having feet on the ground and slow down/limit the possible angles and shots. It'd be better to just use a more open camera in pretty much every situation (not sure how the ship-specific camera works right now, I believe it is just locked to rotate around the ship at a closer view). The ship view camera right now is pretty good, letting you get an easy free roam view of an entire ship would be nice but I think it would be too tedious to do during a match when you're commentating.
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Just came up with a possible idea (may not be plausible but i'll state it anyway) : Maybe allow spectators to run around on ships of their choosing so they can view battles as if they were on the ship (which they basically are) while remaining invisible to the actually players.
I disagree with this part from a spectating commentating standpoint. You don't want to limit the screen to having feet on the ground and slow down/limit the possible angles and shots. It'd be better to just use a more open camera in pretty much every situation (not sure how the ship-specific camera works right now, I believe it is just locked to rotate around the ship at a closer view). The ship view camera right now is pretty good, letting you get an easy free roam view of an entire ship would be nice but I think it would be too tedious to do during a match when you're commentating.
One thing I could see as being pretty rad, as a significantly advanced spectator feature, is a picture-in-picture player cam. If a ship is being gunned down, for instance, pop up a small window on the lower quadrant of each side with the player-perspective of attacking gunner and defending engineer.
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One thing I could see as being pretty rad, as a significantly advanced spectator feature, is a picture-in-picture player cam. If a ship is being gunned down, for instance, pop up a small window on the lower quadrant of each side with the player-perspective of attacking gunner and defending engineer.
That would be so difficult XD, I mean if you're talking in game implementation, even if it was the casters, they'd still need a studio lol.
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One thing I could see as being pretty rad, as a significantly advanced spectator feature, is a picture-in-picture player cam. If a ship is being gunned down, for instance, pop up a small window on the lower quadrant of each side with the player-perspective of attacking gunner and defending engineer.
That would be so difficult XD, I mean if you're talking in game implementation, even if it was the casters, they'd still need a studio lol.
If we did get to the point where being considered "esports" was realistic, tournaments would probably have a dedicated observer who controlled the broadcast's camera.
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Every time I visit this forum I read the topic as "Becoming an escort"
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Every time I visit this forum I read the topic as "Becoming an escort"
I'm sure we could arrange something for you, Squash :D
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Every time I visit this forum I read the topic as "Becoming an escort"
That'd be a fun costume piece.
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Way to completely derail the topic squash. Lol, escort.
Anyways, I love what I've been reading here, and some players have taken lengths to promote the game using prizes and saw some success, yet it was also identified that the majority of them showed up for the shinnies then split soon after to never be seen again.
What would keep the competition going?
The cogs has some nasty matches, and the teams that fight in it love it, what we might need is a lighter version, like some of the tourneys players are trying to organize, with smaller crew size restrictions to allow for AI slots, or even wild card ship pairings.
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Aside from spectating support, I think a major step towards esport territory would be working heavily on the matchmaking system. Currently it's far too basic, and heavily depends on both teams being good-willed and cooperative. if this game truly reaches a bigger audience, all that is going down the drain. There would be griefers, queue droppers, ghosting and all that.
Things I would love to see in this regard:
1- Join as a team. This is just pure quality of life. Let me put together a party and join games in batch, all of us in the same ship(s).
2- Rank based matchmaking (as part of ranked games) backed by a ELO system or whatever.
3- Not seeing what your enemy is picking on the preparation screen.
4- Leaver punishment (sensible punishment obviously, but it is necessary). I really like how Smite does this, and I would do it similarly: There is a passive bonus that keeps compounding as far as you never leave a game, until 100%, in which case it gives you a substantial reward in points after each game. If you leave once it resets to 0 and puts you on a rejoin cooldown.
5- Reward system aside from achievements, such as costumes, flags or ship decals for reaching higher leagues.
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Rankings and Reward systems foster a type of competitiveness that does not mesh well with the nature of the current GOI community. I can be cursing the enemy ships and preying for their deaths in game, but the moment we are back in lobby we are all friends again, and can talk about what we did right and wrong. I have advised captains on the other team on what mistakes they made on their ship loadout. I have left fantastically coordinated teams to balance the sides in the name of fair play. I do this because nothing is at stake except how much people are enjoying the game. The more people enjoy the game the further we will be from ghost town the original GOI multiplayer lobbies became.
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Rankings and Reward systems foster a type of competitiveness that does not mesh well with the nature of the current GOI community. I can be cursing the enemy ships and preying for their deaths in game, but the moment we are back in lobby we are all friends again, and can talk about what we did right and wrong. I have advised captains on the other team on what mistakes they made on their ship loadout. I have left fantastically coordinated teams to balance the sides in the name of fair play. I do this because nothing is at stake except how much people are enjoying the game. The more people enjoy the game the further we will be from ghost town the original GOI multiplayer lobbies became.
I think the perfect game is the one which has such community, but is also by design protected against the most toxic of communities.
I get what you're coming from, and the aspects you highlight are one of the things that charm me the most from GOIO, but honestly, I have seen this problem in many games. The beta/recent release community is extremely friendly, and when the game gets popular the onslaught of people blows the whole thing up.
The whole idea of e-sports implies there is something at stake. Therefore, if Muse intends to drive GOIO that route, they will have to face the consequences. Still, these don't have to be mutually exclusive. For instance, in LoL or Starcraft II it's perfectly possible to have friendly, enjoyable custom games, and even PUGs or Ranked go that way often. However, these games are designed so they still works even if certain players are hellbent on ruining your fun. I think GOIO is very basic in that aspect, which worries me a little.
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1- Join as a team. This is just pure quality of life. Let me put together a party and join games in batch, all of us in the same ship(s).
4- Leaver punishment (sensible punishment obviously, but it is necessary). I really like how Smite does this, and I would do it similarly: There is a passive bonus that keeps compounding as far as you never leave a game, until 100%, in which case it gives you a substantial reward in points after each game. If you leave once it resets to 0 and puts you on a rejoin cooldown.
5- Reward system aside from achievements, such as costumes, flags or ship decals for reaching higher leagues.
1- I believe Muse has said they are currently working on things with the match system, specifically being able to join with your crew.
4- I think what you suggest here specifically isn't that bad, I definitely wouldn't say anything as harsh as games like LoL would do though because honestly things happen where people have to leave and this game lets you compensate for that loss a lot more than others.
5- I do think aesthetics for ships would be pretty cool, and maybe being able to put a flag with a certain emblem up on it.
Rankings and Reward systems foster a type of competitiveness that does not mesh well with the nature of the current GOI community. I can be cursing the enemy ships and preying for their deaths in game, but the moment we are back in lobby we are all friends again, and can talk about what we did right and wrong. I have advised captains on the other team on what mistakes they made on their ship loadout. I have left fantastically coordinated teams to balance the sides in the name of fair play. I do this because nothing is at stake except how much people are enjoying the game. The more people enjoy the game the further we will be from ghost town the original GOI multiplayer lobbies became.
I completely agree that rankings and stuff like that can have a negative impact on the community in negative ways. But I also think regardless of having them, as this community grows more toxic players will join as well. Unfortunately, it won't always be COMPLETELY the super nice community we have here if it continues to grow but there are things we can do to avoid making it too bad. One of the reasons the LoL community is so notoriously bad is in my opinion for two reasons:
1. It is a very open game free for anyone to play, toxic players that are removed keep coming back and overall the community is just massive
2. It is not only a competitive game but each of your games are heavily reliant on every single one of your teammates. Your whole team doing great and one person doing poorly can result in a quick defeat, as well as any leavers. I feel GoI has a better balance towards avoiding this feeling, having good teamwork in the game but also not making it an instant loss if you have a new player with you.
With that said I am kind of on the line of having a ranking system or not. I enjoy having designated competitive matches that I can just jump into but I also dislike the negative vibe the system brings with it. Can we think of other thing that can be done instead? We have the cogs of course, and as the community grows more and more there may be some other little tournaments popping up. But what are some other good alternatives to bringing a more competitive environment without a too negative impact on the community?
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Bare in mind that on the biggest of big weekends, GOIO hits a couple thousand concurrents, and during less active times, hundreds. The game you're using for reference measures it's concurrents in the millions. Advanced ELO-based ranking and match systems just don't scale down well to the size of player-base there currently is.
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Bare in mind that on the biggest of big weekends, GOIO hits a couple thousand concurrents, and during less active times, hundreds. The game you're using for reference measures it's concurrents in the millions. Advanced ELO-based ranking and match systems just don't scale down well to the size of player-base there currently is.
That's a very fair point. I guess you mean LoL by that.
I think a better comparison would then be Smite. Smite is built from the ground up with e-sport written all over it, and despite it being very small, it got the whole matchmaking thing quite right in my opinion.
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Crew formation is coming in the next patch.
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This game can only become an E-Sport if there will be clan support and a clan matchmaking system.
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well we already have the cogs...
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Cogs is nice for the community, but it's not an easy to use, low threshold thing. You really have to be involved in the community to participate.
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This game can only become an E-Sport if there will be clan support and a clan matchmaking system.
Official clan support is also coming in the next patch. I do not know what it will comprise of other than clan tags.
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This game can only become an E-Sport if there will be clan support and a clan matchmaking system.
Official clan support is also coming in the next patch. I do not know what it will comprise of other than clan tags.
Just the tags, for now. I should clarify that all of these "coming in the next patch" features are coming in the next feature patch...server and performance concerns have pushed back our feature development a bit, and the next patch will probably be exclusively fixes and optimization. But clan tags are in the mix for the next feature update.
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This game can only become an E-Sport if there will be clan support and a clan matchmaking system.
Official clan support is also coming in the next patch. I do not know what it will comprise of other than clan tags.
Just the tags, for now. I should clarify that all of these "coming in the next patch" features are coming in the next feature patch...server and performance concerns have pushed back our feature development a bit, and the next patch will probably be exclusively fixes and optimization. But clan tags are in the mix for the next feature update.
I think introducing clantags without a proper matchmaking system is one big mistake. I am kinda predicting the future here (I have a lot of experience regarding beta's alpha's etc). The lobby's will have a hard time to start when people will see 4 or 8 people with the same tags in one team. Even when one ship has a 4 people with the same tag, players will enter and leave the lobby directly when they see it.
Sure you can try it out, but I don't think that this is a great addition to the game (Just clantags), but it could be a great addition when paired with proper matchmaking.
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How will the clan tags manifest in the interface? If they appear with every instance of the person's username, that sounds horrendously unaesthetic.
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This game can only become an E-Sport if there will be clan support and a clan matchmaking system.
Official clan support is also coming in the next patch. I do not know what it will comprise of other than clan tags.
Just the tags, for now. I should clarify that all of these "coming in the next patch" features are coming in the next feature patch...server and performance concerns have pushed back our feature development a bit, and the next patch will probably be exclusively fixes and optimization. But clan tags are in the mix for the next feature update.
I think introducing clantags without a proper matchmaking system is one big mistake. I am kinda predicting the future here (I have a lot of experience regarding beta's alpha's etc). The lobby's will have a hard time to start when people will see 4 or 8 people with the same tags in one team. Even when one ship has a 4 people with the same tag, players will enter and leave the lobby directly when they see it.
Sure you can try it out, but I don't think that this is a great addition to the game (Just clantags), but it could be a great addition when paired with proper matchmaking.
I don't see it being anymore of an issue than people running away due to one side seeming stacked due to levels.
The newbie 1-2 matches seem to have done a lot to help tbh, I flicked the toggle to take a look, and I was amazed by the number of matches running (and being damn happy that it means less totally fresh players in my games :P for both sides sanity)
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How will the clan tags manifest in the interface? If they appear with every instance of the person's username, that sounds horrendously unaesthetic.
I've noticed that awkm and Watchmaker seem to be testing out clan tags. From what I can see they appear under the name and picture and stuff in the forum, before the name in the lobby, under the name when looking at the player menu (or whatever it's called), and not shown in-match.
EDIT: Just looked at a screenshot, and on the scoreboard the clan tag comes before the player's title.
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Just picked up this game on a whim two days ago, and was blown away by the level of teamwork that existed even at the lowest levels of play. I am a Dota fnatic (sorry :P), and can say with a very tiny bit of authority that GOIO steps far beyond Dota in terms of team play, level of fun, and positivity in the community.
tl;dr: there are a few steps that might improve the competitive scene of GOIO, listed at a very un-tl;dr length at the bottom of this spiel. Sorry, it's late, and I'm lazy.
As a potential e-sport, the fabric of the game itself is great material. There is something poetic and powerful about the individual working for the greater good of a ship at war, such that the idea a theme for stories from the vapid Pirates of the Caribbean to Patrick O'Brian's more thoughtful Far Side of the World. Indeed, it is perhaps the most elegant and potent version of the war story, which is, after all, at the root of what a "sport" is. Combine this crucible of competition with the engaging world of steam-punk, and you get an environment classy enough to call its game a sport.
The mechanics of the game follow this up. Far more than any of the games at MLG, or even Dota/LoL, GOIO forces gamers to form a functional leadership system, use effective communication, and work for a common goal. This is a product of both intentional design (no boarding, etc) and the necessary elements of ship combat. A ship can't function well without ship to ship teamwork, and an individual sailor is certainly required to work with teammates to succeed. This creates a twofold level of teamwork that is engaging both tactically and strategically.
However, GOIO has its faults as well, and these hinder serious competitive play and following. I understand that it may not be the intention of the developers to create an e-sport, but I believe that there is real potential for GOIO to achieve a level of play similar to World of Tanks or other fringe e-sports. Thus, I would present my observations and suggestions for improvement:
1. Casting is fundamental to any e-sport. It gives the act of spectating a certain legitimacy that can be hard to explain to the disgusted girlfriend/boyfriend/parent/etc: "Wait, you're not even playing?" *patronizing incredulity*. Nevertheless, casting is critical to the field of e-sports. It's hard to directly encourage this practice, as the internet-based nature of e-sports leaves casters largely to their own initiative. However, in the style of Dota 2, I suspect it would be a rather painless measure to promote tournaments and casters in the game itself. There's a lot of downtime while one is queuing, and putting a banner somewhere, or a navigable page to feature competitive play and casting next to the social tab would ensure that featured casters and events could get attention. Such measures would also be useful for maintaining the already strong integration between community and developers.
2. Many previous posters have noted the importance of individual spectating. I would like to echo their thoughts; the fuel that powers an esport is a rabid fan-base, comprised of individuals who are inspired by professionals to improve their own play. I can almost guarantee that anyone reading this has been inspired into a hobby by observing a great. But no matter if you took up guitar on the tacit advice of Eddie Vedder or went to chess-camp in pursuit of Gary Kasparov, I promise that you had access to their greatest works. Individual spectating serves two elements of e-sports. It creates and sustains charismatic professional players, and encourages others to strive for their status. With that said, I would suggest further polish to the spectating system as well as potentially creating a system to download the replays of games for intensive analysis. The second option is likely quite difficult, and I only mention it as an end goal, but there are a number of small changes that could improve the spectating system.
Create a single drop down menu that can be cycled through every ship to give an overview of load-out and cool-downs, ammo type, etc. Create an unobtrusive bar to display spotted status, balloon, armor, and hull health for each ship at all times. A mini-map for spectators might also be nice, allowing one to monitor the battle even as you focus on particularly charismatic ship-to-ship engagements (this is more caster oriented, and less necessary than in many games when most of the map is invisible). Finally, and most nitpickingly, it would be nice to have a small delay between the last kill of a death-match and the score-screen coming up, allowing a cinematic appreciation of gravity acting on disassociated bits of brass and wood.
3. I do not think matchmaking is necessary to creating competitive play, at least given the currently relatively small player base. Instead, I would suggest more regular "formal" matches, perhaps a set of crowd-sourced tournaments. Daily, self-reported formal matches, consisting of teams with no qualification beyond having full ships (maybe in a round-robin format) would allow for a low-pressure but competitive forum for player skill. Given enough participation, tournaments could be made more similar to matchmaking by breaking up skill levels, with higher tiers being reached with success in lower brackets. Cosmetic rewards could be offered for success or extensive participation in such events.
4. There has been some concern voiced about toxicity with growing player base and competitiveness. This is reasonable, because the community rocks, as small indie game communities tend to do. But it would be a mistake to idylize current community standards to the point of inhibiting the game's potential. I believe that the forced teamwork of the game, the open forum of queue lobbies (perhaps soon to go?), and the near-necessity of voice chat reduce potential toxicity in the environment: in general, the more you know about someone the harder it is to be a turd to them.
That's all I've got, overall. It's late, I've already rambled way too much, and I'll leave this here for general consideration.
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For all people interested in a GoIO eSports announcement, it might be an idea to watch the sky tournament live stream today.
There may or may not be something interesting for you all :D
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Your such a cock tease Qwerty