Author Topic: Becoming an E-Sport  (Read 41829 times)

Offline Arthem White

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2013, 12:37:44 pm »
Rankings and Reward systems foster a type of competitiveness that does not mesh well with the nature of the current GOI community. I can be cursing the enemy ships and preying for their deaths in game, but the moment we are back in lobby we are all friends again, and can talk about what we did right and wrong. I have advised captains on the other team on what mistakes they made on their ship loadout. I have left fantastically coordinated teams to balance the sides in the name of fair play. I do this because nothing is at stake except how much people are enjoying the game. The more people enjoy the game the further we will be from ghost town the original GOI multiplayer lobbies became.

I think the perfect game is the one which has such community, but is also by design protected against the most toxic of communities.

I get what you're coming from, and the aspects you highlight are one of the things that charm me the most from GOIO, but honestly, I have seen this problem in many games. The beta/recent release community is extremely friendly, and when the game gets popular the onslaught of people blows the whole thing up.

The whole idea of e-sports implies there is something at stake. Therefore, if Muse intends to drive GOIO that route, they will have to face the consequences. Still, these don't have to be mutually exclusive. For instance, in LoL or Starcraft II it's perfectly possible to have friendly, enjoyable custom games, and even PUGs or Ranked go that way often. However, these games are designed so they still works even if certain players are hellbent on ruining your fun. I think GOIO is very basic in that aspect, which worries me a little.

Offline GrimWinter

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:53 pm »
1- Join as a team. This is just pure quality of life. Let me put together a party and join games in batch, all of us in the same ship(s).
4- Leaver punishment (sensible punishment obviously, but it is necessary). I really like how Smite does this, and I would do it similarly: There is a passive bonus that keeps compounding as far as you never leave a game, until 100%, in which case it gives you a substantial reward in points after each game. If you leave once it resets to 0 and puts you on a rejoin cooldown.
5- Reward system aside from achievements, such as costumes, flags or ship decals for reaching higher leagues.
1- I believe Muse has said they are currently working on things with the match system, specifically being able to join with your crew.
4- I think what you suggest here specifically isn't that bad, I definitely wouldn't say anything as harsh as games like LoL would do though because honestly things happen where people have to leave and this game lets you compensate for that loss a lot more than others.
5- I do think aesthetics for ships would be pretty cool, and maybe being able to put a flag with a certain emblem up on it.

Rankings and Reward systems foster a type of competitiveness that does not mesh well with the nature of the current GOI community. I can be cursing the enemy ships and preying for their deaths in game, but the moment we are back in lobby we are all friends again, and can talk about what we did right and wrong. I have advised captains on the other team on what mistakes they made on their ship loadout. I have left fantastically coordinated teams to balance the sides in the name of fair play. I do this because nothing is at stake except how much people are enjoying the game. The more people enjoy the game the further we will be from ghost town the original GOI multiplayer lobbies became.
I completely agree that rankings and stuff like that can have a negative impact on the community in negative ways. But I also think regardless of having them, as this community grows more toxic players will join as well. Unfortunately, it won't always be COMPLETELY the super nice community we have here if it continues to grow but there are things we can do to avoid making it too bad. One of the reasons the LoL community is so notoriously bad is in my opinion for two reasons:
1. It is a very open game free for anyone to play, toxic players that are removed keep coming back and overall the community is just massive
2. It is not only a competitive game but each of your games are heavily reliant on every single one of your teammates. Your whole team doing great and one person doing poorly can result in a quick defeat, as well as any leavers. I feel GoI has a better balance towards avoiding this feeling, having good teamwork in the game but also not making it an instant loss if you have a new player with you.

With that said I am kind of on the line of having a ranking system or not. I enjoy having designated competitive matches that I can just jump into but I also dislike the negative vibe the system brings with it. Can we think of other thing that can be done instead? We have the cogs of course, and as the community grows more and more there may be some other little tournaments popping up. But what are some other good alternatives to bringing a more competitive environment without a too negative impact on the community?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:02:09 pm by GrimWinter »

Offline Urz

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2013, 01:12:09 pm »
Bare in mind that on the biggest of big weekends, GOIO hits a couple thousand concurrents, and during less active times, hundreds. The game you're using for reference measures it's concurrents in the millions. Advanced ELO-based ranking and match systems just don't scale down well to the size of player-base there currently is.

Offline Arthem White

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2013, 01:57:41 pm »
Bare in mind that on the biggest of big weekends, GOIO hits a couple thousand concurrents, and during less active times, hundreds. The game you're using for reference measures it's concurrents in the millions. Advanced ELO-based ranking and match systems just don't scale down well to the size of player-base there currently is.

That's a very fair point. I guess you mean LoL by that.

I think a better comparison would then be Smite. Smite is built from the ground up with e-sport written all over it, and despite it being very small, it got the whole matchmaking thing quite right in my opinion.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2013, 03:45:09 pm »
Crew formation is coming in the next patch.

Offline Typhi

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2013, 11:33:26 am »
This game can only become an E-Sport if there will be clan support and a clan matchmaking system.

Offline Coldcurse

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2013, 11:40:45 am »
well we already have the cogs...

Offline Typhi

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2013, 01:28:18 pm »
Cogs is nice for the community, but it's not an easy to use, low threshold thing. You really have to be involved in the community to participate.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2013, 03:55:41 pm »
This game can only become an E-Sport if there will be clan support and a clan matchmaking system.

Official clan support is also coming in the next patch. I do not know what it will comprise of other than clan tags.

Offline Clara Skyborn

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2013, 04:46:27 pm »
This game can only become an E-Sport if there will be clan support and a clan matchmaking system.

Official clan support is also coming in the next patch. I do not know what it will comprise of other than clan tags.

Just the tags, for now. I should clarify that all of these "coming in the next patch" features are coming in the next feature patch...server and performance concerns have pushed back our feature development a bit, and the next patch will probably be exclusively fixes and optimization. But clan tags are in the mix for the next feature update.

Offline Typhi

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2013, 11:15:56 pm »
This game can only become an E-Sport if there will be clan support and a clan matchmaking system.

Official clan support is also coming in the next patch. I do not know what it will comprise of other than clan tags.

Just the tags, for now. I should clarify that all of these "coming in the next patch" features are coming in the next feature patch...server and performance concerns have pushed back our feature development a bit, and the next patch will probably be exclusively fixes and optimization. But clan tags are in the mix for the next feature update.

I think introducing clantags without a proper matchmaking system is one big mistake. I am kinda predicting the future here (I have a lot of experience regarding beta's alpha's etc). The lobby's will have a hard time to start when people will see 4 or 8 people with the same tags in one team. Even when one ship has a 4 people with the same tag, players will enter and leave the lobby directly when they see it.

Sure you can try it out, but I don't think that this is a great addition to the game (Just clantags), but it could be a great addition when paired with proper matchmaking.

Offline Urz

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2013, 05:32:25 am »
How will the clan tags manifest in the interface? If they appear with every instance of the person's username, that sounds horrendously unaesthetic.

Offline Veyka

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2013, 06:41:10 am »
This game can only become an E-Sport if there will be clan support and a clan matchmaking system.

Official clan support is also coming in the next patch. I do not know what it will comprise of other than clan tags.

Just the tags, for now. I should clarify that all of these "coming in the next patch" features are coming in the next feature patch...server and performance concerns have pushed back our feature development a bit, and the next patch will probably be exclusively fixes and optimization. But clan tags are in the mix for the next feature update.

I think introducing clantags without a proper matchmaking system is one big mistake. I am kinda predicting the future here (I have a lot of experience regarding beta's alpha's etc). The lobby's will have a hard time to start when people will see 4 or 8 people with the same tags in one team. Even when one ship has a 4 people with the same tag, players will enter and leave the lobby directly when they see it.

Sure you can try it out, but I don't think that this is a great addition to the game (Just clantags), but it could be a great addition when paired with proper matchmaking.

I don't see it being anymore of an issue than people running away due to one side seeming stacked due to levels.

The newbie 1-2 matches seem to have done a lot to help tbh, I flicked the toggle to take a look, and I was amazed by the number of matches running (and being damn happy that it means less totally fresh players in my games :P for both sides sanity)

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2013, 09:35:51 am »
How will the clan tags manifest in the interface? If they appear with every instance of the person's username, that sounds horrendously unaesthetic.

I've noticed that awkm and Watchmaker seem to be testing out clan tags. From what I can see they appear  under the name and picture and stuff in the forum, before the name in the lobby, under the name when looking at the player menu (or whatever it's called), and not shown in-match.

EDIT: Just looked at a screenshot, and on the scoreboard the clan tag comes before the player's title.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 09:52:18 am by N-Sunderland »

Offline TwoTrees

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Re: Becoming an E-Sport
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2013, 04:33:39 am »
Just picked up this game on a whim two days ago, and was blown away by the level of teamwork that existed even at the lowest levels of play.  I am a Dota fnatic (sorry :P), and can say with a very tiny bit of authority that GOIO steps far beyond Dota in terms of team play, level of fun, and positivity in the community.

tl;dr: there are a few steps that might improve the competitive scene of GOIO, listed at a very un-tl;dr length at the bottom of this spiel.  Sorry, it's late, and I'm lazy.

As a potential e-sport, the fabric of the game itself is great material.  There is something poetic and powerful about the individual working for the greater good of a ship at war, such that the idea a theme for stories from the vapid Pirates of the Caribbean to Patrick O'Brian's more thoughtful Far Side of the World.  Indeed, it is perhaps the most elegant and potent version of the war story, which is, after all, at the root of what a "sport" is.  Combine this crucible of competition with the engaging world of steam-punk, and you get an environment classy enough to call its game a sport.

The mechanics of the game follow this up.  Far more than any of the games at MLG, or even Dota/LoL, GOIO forces gamers to form a functional leadership system, use effective communication, and work for a common goal.  This is a product of both intentional design (no boarding, etc) and the necessary elements of ship combat.  A ship can't function well without ship to ship teamwork, and an individual sailor is certainly required to work with teammates to succeed.  This creates a twofold level of teamwork that is engaging both tactically and strategically.

However, GOIO has its faults as well, and these hinder serious competitive play and following.  I understand that it may not be the intention of the developers to create an e-sport, but I believe that there is real potential for GOIO to achieve a level of play similar to World of Tanks or other fringe e-sports.  Thus, I would present my observations and suggestions for improvement:

1.  Casting is fundamental to any e-sport.  It gives the act of spectating a certain legitimacy that can be hard to explain to the disgusted girlfriend/boyfriend/parent/etc: "Wait, you're not even playing?"  *patronizing incredulity*.  Nevertheless, casting is critical to the field of e-sports.  It's hard to directly encourage this practice, as the internet-based nature of e-sports leaves casters largely to their own initiative.  However, in the style of Dota 2, I suspect it would be a rather painless measure to promote tournaments and casters in the game itself.  There's a lot of downtime while one is queuing, and putting a banner somewhere, or a navigable page to feature competitive play and casting next to the social tab would ensure that featured casters and events could get attention.  Such measures would also be useful for maintaining the already strong integration between community and developers.

2. Many previous posters have noted the importance of individual spectating.  I would like to echo their thoughts; the fuel that powers an esport is a rabid fan-base, comprised of individuals who are inspired by professionals to improve their own play.  I can almost guarantee that anyone reading this has been inspired into a hobby by observing a great.  But no matter if you took up guitar on the tacit advice of Eddie Vedder or went to chess-camp in pursuit of Gary Kasparov, I promise that you had access to their greatest works.  Individual spectating serves two elements of e-sports.  It creates and sustains charismatic professional players, and encourages others to strive for their status.  With that said, I would suggest further polish to the spectating system as well as potentially creating a system to download the replays of games for intensive analysis.  The second option is likely quite difficult, and I only mention it as an end goal, but there are a number of small changes that could improve the spectating system.

Create a single drop down menu that can be cycled through every ship to give an overview of load-out and cool-downs, ammo type, etc.  Create an unobtrusive bar to display spotted status, balloon, armor, and hull health for each ship at all times.  A mini-map for spectators might also be nice, allowing one to monitor the battle even as you focus on particularly charismatic ship-to-ship engagements (this is more caster oriented, and less necessary than in many games when most of the map is invisible).  Finally, and most nitpickingly, it would be nice to have a small delay between the last kill of a death-match and the score-screen coming up, allowing a cinematic appreciation of gravity acting on disassociated bits of brass and wood.

3.  I do not think matchmaking is necessary to creating competitive play, at least given the currently relatively small player base.  Instead, I would suggest more regular "formal" matches, perhaps a set of crowd-sourced tournaments.  Daily, self-reported formal matches, consisting of teams with no qualification beyond having full ships (maybe in a round-robin format) would allow for a low-pressure but competitive forum for player skill.  Given enough participation, tournaments could be made more similar to matchmaking by breaking up skill levels, with higher tiers being reached with success in lower brackets.  Cosmetic rewards could be offered for success or extensive participation in such events.

4.  There has been some concern voiced about toxicity with growing player base and competitiveness.  This is reasonable, because the community rocks, as small indie game communities tend to do.  But it would be a mistake to idylize current community standards to the point of inhibiting the game's potential.  I believe that the forced teamwork of the game, the open forum of queue lobbies (perhaps soon to go?), and the near-necessity of voice chat reduce potential toxicity in the environment: in general, the more you know about someone the harder it is to be a turd to them.

That's all I've got, overall.  It's late, I've already rambled way too much, and I'll leave this here for general consideration.