Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ayetach on March 04, 2015, 12:11:03 am
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I have played many, many, MANY matches in this wonderful game and one of the many things that has compelled me to progress in this game has been levels - at least thats what was one of my compelling elements from before. But now I've come to realize that having a numeric level system that everyone is ranked by publicly is an arguably counter-productive part of playing this game.
Lets look at some key arguments that can be made about this (and I absolutely encourage all of you to put in your own two cents [constructively] to this as I value hearing all the various points of view of this subject):
Levels identify skilled players, this is a absolutely a convenient measure I won't argue that, but it also creates a stigma among newer players too. Lets say we have some high level players collected on a team and a new low level character hops aboard. Not that this is always the case but frequently enough I have witnessed a dismissive and sometimes scornful attitude players have towards playing with these new players. Believe it or not I have seen and known enough players with alt accounts that half the time I'm never really sure if they really are new to the game, let alone knowledgeable enough to move ahead with their task. There are also many awesome players who pick up on what to do very quickly and I realize this is reasonably more frequent of a characteristic than many would believe.
Elitism. Well this is a grayer topic, but the sense that you are more superior to your fellow player just because you have a higher level seems silly - having a level system enumerating where we're at publicly is a sort of fuel to this kind of fire. I'm sure many have thoughts on this point but its one of those things that does exist among some players and it *can* be impairing for player to player interaction.
Skills. Just because I'm a level 45 in all areas does not mean I am a super ultra hyper awesome jack-of-all-trades player. Yes, I do many of the roles reasonably well and I've played them frequently enough to earn the level numbers based on this new system - but I sure feel like there are many who can surpass my skills in many of these areas and to be recognized for this distinction is a bit misleading. The bottom line is that many of these level systems can be misleading us in thinking we are more than capable of what we actually handle at that stage of our understanding and play style. This can also be a factor of deterring players from facing one another when they review the levels each side has (I know Muse has made efforts in hiding that in lobbies but there are ways of getting around this and lets be honest, many of us do that to review the skills gap between sides).
The radical notion of removing this might seem completely outrageous to many but when you really think about how it plays into the game, its not a terribly bad notion really. I'll admit it is very unlikely this idea would ever see the day of light in a dev build buuuut the purpose of this is to discuss the topic frankly and think about the factors that weigh in on these kinds of implications.
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I'd be ok with this. The level system has gone through a pretty radical change during the past couple patches anyway, what's one more overhaul? I'm not married to the current level system, and if changing it could help the game in the long run, I'd be willing to give it a try
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On the one hand I agree, but on the other side of the coin, it is also a good thing!
Especially when helping new players, very often new players pay attention because "omg level 45!"
Although I agree with your points there are many many reasons why the level system is a good thing....
But I am mostly agreed, I'd not cry if the level system was removed. :)
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It is pretty easy to farm achievements in a private game with a clan. It was easier back in the day, but still easy now. I don't really take anyone's level by any stock except for low, low, levels who obviously will need additional instruction. So I don't really pay any attention to high level of anything, but more on their fame or reputation in areas of the game.
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Imo levels show experience more than skill, and as a general rule if somebody is high level in one class they are likely to do well in the others through understanding more than practice
EG I would like to think I am a pretty good gunner, but my lvl 22 gunner stat would tell a different story. I am not experienced as a gunner, but have still had practice with most guns playing as an engineer.
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Yes but this can work both directions, due to the new leveling system being so fast paced, there are high level players who do not know as much as their "experience" or high levels should allow them to know... I've seen level 22's use default ammo as gungineers because they did not know how to load ammos...
A level 19 gunner who only used default ammo after claiming in the lobby "I only do gunner only because I am a good gunner." When asked to load his ammo his reply was (and I quote) "It does it automatically when I empty the gun you ****ing ****"
As you can imagine this individual soon got blocked and reported end of match.
My point is, yes levels can be a way to judge someone's experience but it is only a very brief marker...
I see no community benefits to the leveling system myself and only individual benefits from people feeling accomplished as they level up.
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That is absolutely correct. However, this is a game that needs constant fresh blood to survive. As much as we know that the leveling system is pointless, many casual and needy gamers need that sense of fulfillment and reward to feel valuable. They think they need a way to gauge their value, and they don't understand that it is by the success of the crew, not the individual.
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What if, instead of or in addition to levels, you could see the number of commendations a player has? How much their fellow players enjoyed playing with them would be a great indication of whether or not they should be listened to. True enough, these could be farmed with friends, but I still think it would be a better indicator of skill or general fun-ness to be around than levels.
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I give everyone commendations whether they deserve them or not. Coupled with the fact that the vets and bigger clans tend to play more in-house (events, tournaments, etc) than against casuals, and that casuals probably see more of each other, I think you'd actually see more commendations on casuals, which wouldn't indicate much of anything. Honestly, I think commendations are about as pointless as levels.
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I give everyone commendations whether they deserve them or not. Coupled with the fact that the vets and bigger clans tend to play more in-house (events, tournaments, etc) than against casuals, and that casuals probably see more of each other, I think you'd actually see more commendations on casuals, which wouldn't indicate much of anything. Honestly, I think commendations are about as pointless as levels.
This...
Also commendations are given out so freely, almost as if you'd be rude not to give one...
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I actually only give commendations to people I had real, more than ordinary, fun with. Excuuuse me for using it how it was meant, princess.
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I actually only give commendations to people I had real, more than ordinary, fun with. Excuuuse me for using it how it was meant, princess.
But as mentioned, even when used the it should be used... There is no way to check commendations gathered :(
Also, lol. 8)
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Thank goodness. I was worried that joke would be missed, since it is text and not voice. Was so worried I would get in trouble, but still had to do it.
As for checking commendations, I do not think it would be too complicated to implement a way to keep track of them, although I could be wrong. I do not actually know the first thing about making or changing a game.
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I'm not really sure how to read into the context of that, but I just hand out commendations because it feels impolite not to, and it's a bit of mindless habit. But that's the point, it really is just an arbitrary thing.
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The joke is the "well excuuse me, princess" gag in the old Legend of Zelda tv show.
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My reasoning behind handing commendations to everyone is, well.
They helped me experience that match, had they not been there I couldnt have had the pleasure of playing the match. Only when a crewman or an ally sets us up for failure or simply frustrates me constantly in the match, I hold back from my commendation. Commendations may be pointless in theory, but if you hand them all out you make your crew feel valued for doing their job, thus encouraging them to do better.
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I remember when the levels were not numeric but were displayed as the title next to your name "Powder Monkey," "Roustabout," "Navigator," "Artillerist," ect. I would like to go back to that system perhaps with the option of letting the player select the title from all the ones they have earned thus far. That way if you want to walk about flashing your "Master Commander Elite" title you can, but you can also pretend to be a "Steerer" just to mess with people.
If anything should be used as a gauge of a player's ability it should be games played.
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I remember when the levels were not numeric but were displayed as the title next to your name "Powder Monkey," "Roustabout," "Navigator," "Artillerist," ect. I would like to go back to that system perhaps with the option of letting the player select the title from all the ones they have earned thus far. That way if you want to walk about flashing your "Master Commander Elite" title you can, but you can also pretend to be a "Steerer" just to mess with people.
If anything should be used as a gauge of a player's ability it should be games played.
Oh yes, perhaps this could be implemented with bounty badges too! So you can ACTUALLY show off that you're "not to be trifled with" +1
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I remember when the levels were not numeric but were displayed as the title next to your name "Powder Monkey," "Roustabout," "Navigator," "Artillerist," ect. I would like to go back to that system perhaps with the option of letting the player select the title from all the ones they have earned thus far. That way if you want to walk about flashing your "Master Commander Elite" title you can, but you can also pretend to be a "Steerer" just to mess with people.
If anything should be used as a gauge of a player's ability it should be games played.
I like that actually, especially the select title part!
Spudnick wears default clothing I could imagine him donning Steerer title too!
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I remember when the levels were not numeric but were displayed as the title next to your name "Powder Monkey," "Roustabout," "Navigator," "Artillerist," ect. I would like to go back to that system perhaps with the option of letting the player select the title from all the ones they have earned thus far. That way if you want to walk about flashing your "Master Commander Elite" title you can, but you can also pretend to be a "Steerer" just to mess with people.
If anything should be used as a gauge of a player's ability it should be games played.
That's a pretty intriguing idea actually. I like that!
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Remove levels?
But what about all the players and clans that spent hour after hour in the old system to grind out achievements and hit max level in all of their classes? You can't just toss out that badge of honor they gained to show how great of players they are at everything. How else are they going to show off their superiority?
With the irony of the thread out of the way, levels can be a bit of an issue. Players are judged by their level because it's the fastest method of judging a player's experience and relative skill. It's not always a good estimate, but it's generally pretty ok. If you replace that with match count, it's not going to change anything. Players with low match counts will still be the black sheep, and players with high match counts are going to flaunt it as much as players flaunt their levels now (ie: some players say 'listen to me, I'm a higher level' or something to that respect; others don't. It won't change anything.)
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All of this could be removed all together. No way to tell someone's level, thus stopping the flaunting of them. If you want someone to retain a badge of honor you could have literal badges made for these players, something to remind them of the glory days, when the badges used to mean something. (you might have been making a joke, I don't know. I do know some people will worry about this.)
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Hmm, this be a tricky topic. I think most of you know my feelings on newer players (and for sake of the lobby, I wont say it all again and sing "why can't we be friends").
To be perfectly blunt, I don't think removing levels or any way to tell will help because those that value elitism will still use any way they can to show off.
You'd have to take away badges, take away unique costumes, remove the ability to even look at a profile to see anything. And even then, it wouldn't work. They'll say what levels and accomplishments they have and why you better listen anyway.
And, if you notice, people are finding other ways to show someone is good at something. Be it showing games played, the number of commendations, only your title...it's still showing a form of rank.
Anything at all will still put a value on being good at something, even if that something is being polite. And some people will use that as a reason to listen to them then someone else. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, its just that when it come right down to it, you can't make rules and settings to stop judgement. People will find ways. I mean, I've seen people get judged simply on the way their voice sounds. Removing levels isn't going to fix against that kind of mentality.
And honestly, having levels gives people something to shoot for. People will grind "I need level x before bed!" And giving away gifts and costumes and decals for it keeps people playing.
What we can do is foster a positive community and reach out for those that need to learn. Play by example. Actually, seeing discussions like this are a good thing, being it shows that the community cares.
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I know this might spark a bit of a flame, but there is an easy solution to this. People need to stop using their levels as a reason people should listen to them. I think the best way would be to have more matches per game. This would allow a "test game" so to speak, allowing people to really see why they should listen to someone, instead of just needing to go on faith and a set of numbers, be it level or matches played. I understand that some people might have the reaction "I have levels, I will tell people what to do if I want. They should listen to me anyway because I am better than them." but please understand that I am just talking, and mean no offense.
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Yes, titles instead of levels would be really sweet, simultaneously more and less intimidating than numbers. And it would mesh well with old-fashioned analog feel of the game.
In the tf2 forums, I once saw a pyro was saying how they wear gibus for pubstomping. When a pub soldier sees pyro with gibus, he will be more agressive/careless than if he sees pyro with sweet hat, and the pyro gets easy reflects :D
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Hmm, this be a tricky topic. I think most of you know my feelings on newer players (and for sake of the lobby, I wont say it all again and sing "why can't we be friends").
To be perfectly blunt, I don't think removing levels or any way to tell will help because those that value elitism will still use any way they can to show off.
You'd have to take away badges, take away unique costumes, remove the ability to even look at a profile to see anything. And even then, it wouldn't work. They'll say what levels and accomplishments they have and why you better listen anyway.
And, if you notice, people are finding other ways to show someone is good at something. Be it showing games played, the number of commendations, only your title...it's still showing a form of rank.
Anything at all will still put a value on being good at something, even if that something is being polite. And some people will use that as a reason to listen to them then someone else. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, its just that when it come right down to it, you can't make rules and settings to stop judgement. People will find ways. I mean, I've seen people get judged simply on the way their voice sounds. Removing levels isn't going to fix against that kind of mentality.
And honestly, having levels gives people something to shoot for. People will grind "I need level x before bed!" And giving away gifts and costumes and decals for it keeps people playing.
What we can do is foster a positive community and reach out for those that need to learn. Play by example. Actually, seeing discussions like this are a good thing, being it shows that the community cares.
Sarabelle speaks much truth.
I know this might spark a bit of a flame, but there is an easy solution to this. People need to stop using their levels as a reason people should listen to them. I think the best way would be to have more matches per game. This would allow a "test game" so to speak, allowing people to really see why they should listen to someone, instead of just needing to go on faith and a set of numbers, be it level or matches played. I understand that some people might have the reaction "I have levels, I will tell people what to do if I want. They should listen to me anyway because I am better than them." but please understand that I am just talking, and mean no offense.
The test game idea, too much work for little reward and results, all that would happen is a one off match before people choose to go to crew form again because their ally was not what they wanted or all the other reasons, may as well leave the matches how they are and people will still do that same thing they do now anyway...
As for the comment on "I have levels, I will tell people what to do."
I have not seen this very often, I admit I have seen it, but that it normally after someone has been ridiculously stubborn or rude about something and the higher level (who normally is speaking sense) quotes levels while trying to explain why doing [insert something in-effective here] is not a good idea....
I'm not saying it does not happen, there are elitist players in this community, but I think the issue is more un-spoken and psychological than an issue of people flaunting their levels about..
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the current lvling system is fine, but the rewards for achievements is far too high.
and it has a few major exploits that need to be patched out (goddamn buff exp grinders). Otherwise as is? The system is kinda decent (in concept).
Generally speaking though, the biggest measure of a player is usually match count/time spent as each class. A bit rudimentary but its the most solid type thus far.
Other types of player ability measurement are debatable in their merit.
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the current lvling system is fine, but the rewards for achievements is far too high.
and it has a few major exploits that need to be patched out (goddamn buff exp grinders). Otherwise as is? The system is kinda decent (in concept).
Generally speaking though, the biggest measure of a player is usually match count/time spent as each class. A bit rudimentary but its the most solid type thus far.
Other types of player ability measurement are debatable in their merit.
I bolded the parts which I agree with :)
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Feels like this thread is taking a turn in the opposite direction of the original post. I believe the intentions were to discuss ways to reduce/eliminate discrimination against lower level players and potentially decrease elitism (which is where the irony came in) that is often experienced due to the level system. Low level players are blamed for everything, yelled at, and surprisingly often not allowed on ships of high level players.
By removing levels and replacing with matches/time played, you're not fixing a goat licking thing. If players are distinguished in any way from one another, be it levels, matches, title, or fancy hats; there's going to be the same discrimination and elitism.
Maybe if we had some kind of program where good role models in the community could act as such and play matches with lower leveled players, both helping build up their skill/level while helping show them that not all high level players are festering turds. This would let them be good players despite their lower level, and be more open to communication and advice.
Oh woe is me, if only such a thing existed, and if only those particular players would do the role they signed up for~
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Would showing medals on the lobby screen as miniature smaller images work in some way to show experience?
Kinda sparks of calloduty here...
I mean, i myself dont have any special medals to show experience, didnt try hard enough to get any bounty medals :P
But future medals are bound, even coming from coop. I think medals is an alternate way of showing experience. Like. If a 45/45/45 player rather show his engineer skill supriority, he just adds in 3 medals hes most proud of that says more of him. Engineering, bounty, Tourney medal.
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Maybe if we had some kind of program where good role models in the community could act as such and play matches with lower leveled players, both helping build up their skill/level while helping show them that not all high level players are festering turds. This would let them be good players despite their lower level, and be more open to communication and advice.
Oh woe is me, if only such a thing existed, and if only those particular players would do the role they signed up for~
Not sure if youre trying to be disingenuous by insinuating that im not contributing to said system. I play hundreds more matches with random players high level or low than i do staying stuck with my own clan mates. You can ask anyone that sees me on during my active times :) this is also why i make these posts to other CAs about finding ways to improve the skill gap and detriments along with it as well as open-ended discussions here.
This post is more theoretical discussion as i have diligently outlined very clearly in the op how unlikely it would be to impliment them. I just like to hear what others have to say and many points from yourself and others have their validity :)
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Feels like this thread is taking a turn in the opposite direction of the original post. I believe the intentions were to discuss ways to reduce/eliminate discrimination against lower level players and potentially decrease elitism (which is where the irony came in) that is often experienced due to the level system. Low level players are blamed for everything, yelled at, and surprisingly often not allowed on ships of high level players.
By removing levels and replacing with matches/time played, you're not fixing a goat licking thing. If players are distinguished in any way from one another, be it levels, matches, title, or fancy hats; there's going to be the same discrimination and elitism.
Maybe if we had some kind of program where good role models in the community could act as such and play matches with lower leveled players, both helping build up their skill/level while helping show them that not all high level players are festering turds. This would let them be good players despite their lower level, and be more open to communication and advice.
Oh woe is me, if only such a thing existed, and if only those particular players would do the role they signed up for~
Every day I log in I attempt to make a novice match and okay with/teach at least one novice match a day.... Assuming there is no training to do or some such, since the sale ended, I have not been able to fill a single novice match, so go to the public matches and try there.
It is insulting for you to assume and insult every single CA based on your own assumptions and very poorly seen observation's.
Yes it can be said -some- people may not take the role seriously, but rather than be an obnoxious fool and paint us all the same colour, you should email feedback@musegames.com and tell them who you think is not pulling their weight, or talk to one of the CA moderators privately.
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Worry not, I meant no harm to your egos. This is a criticism of the CA system in general. And before they all start piling in here and listing out their own accomplishments, I don't care about what any individual CA has or has not done. As a whole, many neglect their duty to teach and assist new players, choosing instead to stick with their own groups. This isn't something new.
If instead our overwhelming amount of CAs chose to go out and help players as intended, it would mitigate a lot of the 'issues' when dealing with lower leveled players.
But for those CAs who do think this post is directed at them, then it probably is. If they're feeling the need to justify their actions and trumpet their accomplishments, they're pretty insecure about doing their role. If you don't think it's directed at you, then keep on keeping on, we need more of you.
For badges instead, that doesn't solve the discrimination against new players, as they don't really have a lot of badges. And a lot of players who have the 45/45/45 have plenty of badges, because they want to be the top in every way. Any way that allows players to showcase their experience or skill allows for elitism and also for discrimination against newer players. Even if you got rid of the entire system, players would still find a way. Even if it's just "Everyone knows my name because I'm amazing." and "I've never heard of you before, you're probably awful."
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Indeed, I do appreciate your thoughts on this and truthfully I could mitigate the integration issues players have using CAs.
Now I know every CA is different and perhaps views their contributions differently. It is difficult to discern how that can be improved beyond hoping they would be more active really. However, there are events and various initiatives to have them help contribute to in getting more players up to speed but I would definitely love to hear more suggestions in reducing this kind of gap mentality.
The original post was as it was titled - a radical concept, and you rightly outlined the faults with those ideas. But this is why I post here to get feedback when I'm thinking about different angles of challenges we face.
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Worry not, I meant no harm to your egos. This is a criticism of the CA system in general. And before they all start piling in here and listing out their own accomplishments, I don't care about what any individual CA has or has not done. As a whole, many neglect their duty to teach and assist new players, choosing instead to stick with their own groups. This isn't something new.
If instead our overwhelming amount of CAs chose to go out and help players as intended, it would mitigate a lot of the 'issues' when dealing with lower leveled players.
But for those CAs who do think this post is directed at them, then it probably is. If they're feeling the need to justify their actions and trumpet their accomplishments, they're pretty insecure about doing their role. If you don't think it's directed at you, then keep on keeping on, we need more of you.
For badges instead, that doesn't solve the discrimination against new players, as they don't really have a lot of badges. And a lot of players who have the 45/45/45 have plenty of badges, because they want to be the top in every way. Any way that allows players to showcase their experience or skill allows for elitism and also for discrimination against newer players. Even if you got rid of the entire system, players would still find a way. Even if it's just "Everyone knows my name because I'm amazing." and "I've never heard of you before, you're probably awful."
I can vouch for this. Seen many CAs who only fly with their friends, before most recent patch some would fly pyras and rolfstomp random crew ships all day.
I don't see how removing levels would solve any problems. Population is still low, fresh players will still get matched with experienced players. Frustration will still happen.
It would make boasting and bragging more difficult, but then again, that was never a big issue. The so called elitists won't stop feeling 'elite' just because some stats suddenly got removed from the game.
The closest you get to elitism in this game are people who think they are in a different level of skill simply because they play 'competitive' (which is nothing more than a normal game except for the fact that every player knows their roles and basic screw ups don't happen).