Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Dutch Vanya on March 02, 2015, 07:20:25 pm
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There are certain unwritten rules about GOI that all new players need to know, that tend to cause conflicts and are not immediately obvious. Not just any tips, but important core ideas that the tutorials and game itself fail to explain. This information should be provided clearly , before new players can play a match. I'm looking for you guys to add to this list and hopefully it can make the GOI experience better for everyone. Something along the lines of these:
This game is all about teamwork and communication, you will not succeed alone.
There is no good reason to have more than one gunner. Engineers can shoot and keep the ship intact. Gunners only provide ammo variety.
You should learn the game as crew before attempting to pilot.
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Chem spray. Learn to keep chem spray cycles going.
Learn when to buff, and when not to buff.
Learn which ammo is good on which gun. Do not use exchanger on flamer.
Abuse the shell out of mino before it gets merged.
Also, I disagree with the learn to crew before you captain thing. I understand why some people think that way, but I do not think you need to be a good engie before you can be a good pilot. Just a matter of picking up on how to fly. Some learn quickly some don't. Not trying to start an argument, just my opinion.
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I already sent an email to muse.
*regarding doing all tutorials as a mandatory thing to graduate. even if you lvl up to graduation.
That could work if the the tutorials were more intuitive.
You don't really feel the immediacy of the tutorials until you get
into combat and by then you've let your peers down.
Reactions vary from there to either, "this game is stupid because I
can't win by trying", "I need to get better", "it's that other
person's fault, my pilot was bad, my other engie didn't do his job,
etc"
The tutorials need a fail state. Where there are conditions of which
they must succeed and standards the player is challenged to reach/go
beyond.
Creates specific scenarios where you use the specific aspect of
gameplay and slowly learn intricacies of the gameplay bit by bit. I
know the current tutorial does this, but it doesn't quite illustrate
the importance of the actions. A classic show not tell problem. I know
you show... but SHOW HARDER
I never learn just how specifically fatal a destroyed balloon or hull
or engines merely by seeing red parts that I have to build (learned
that in-game and in matches. I know it tells me but it never went in.
And in public matches? I won't have time to fathom what happened as
veterans will do what they do and go about the most efficient way
possible and go for the kill. Noobs can only fathom that shooting a
target=it will eventually die.
They aren't really shown what a hull break does, or engine destroy, or
a balloon pop.
And most importantly, they are not taught correctly what gun DOES the
kinds of damage they want when ship building. So many flaks, so many
guns that don't line up arcs, such little understanding of what a
ship's strengths and weaknesses are (so many... GALLEONS).
And yes, I know the info is there. I knew that gatling was for hull,
carronade was for balloon as it said on the gun description, BUT WHY!?
What a downed hull mean? What does a downed balloon do? What are the
consequences?
Again, I know you tell me. But you don't SHOW ME.
So what can be learned from this? Give more information for one thing
and illustrate it with a playable scenario. A tutorial isn't a manual
it's an interactive learning experience.
You've been messing around with CO-OP recently right? Surely you've
been messing around with AI bots ships and their pathing. Heck you've
done that with Flight of Icarus. It might actually be a nice call back
to recreate these scenarios with that kinda set up.
So what to take away from this?
1. damage type tutorial
2.a) actual illustration of hull break consequences (scenario where
you repair hull before ship hp reaches zero or let ship survive for X
seconds but repairing and rebuilding hull),
b) illustrate balloon break (rebuild balloon before you die and add
in extra condition that hull must be intact, to illustrate just how
FAST your reactions must be to a balloon break),
c) illustrate engine breaks (turning engines are out so they must be
fixed to allow the AI pilot to turn the ship to get guns in arc). Main
engines? Guns cannot get in rage without the main engines active.
Naturally make these harsh conditions with fail states where if you
are too slow, the target ship will kill you.
3. separate each tutorial part into numerous selectable scenarios that
easily sets up the idealise situation to illustrate the importance of
learning each thing.
4. teach proper ship building! demonstrate what damage types do and
mean. demonstrate what bad ship builds are.
5. teach proper gun shooting. set up tutorials on specific gun
shooting with specific conditions on how they are properly used (lock
off things outside the condition-like hull breaks wen ur teaching
component sniping or balloon sniping). e.g. have the mino gun make a
merc gun lose arc for x seconds. or art/ merc training shoot x
components on a ship (merc is basically a stationary galleon ahead
while an artemis has a target closer but vertically lower).
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Add star Ceres Bane<ceresbane@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 7:43 PM
To: Howard T <howard@musegames.com>
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Also whats the point of a stricter condition for graduating novice, if
nothing is actually keeping them in novice?
Nothing is even giving incentive to them to stay in novice.
I personally stayed in novice to my own pedantry of going through the
proper process. People aren't like me. Most aren't.
Add star Howard T<howard@musegames.com> Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 7:47 PM
To: Ceres Bane <ceresbane@gmail.com>
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Yeah basically you want the tutorials to be more like missions (like Arkham City's VR training), so something along those lines right?
We would love to. That's basically the dream or the aim. Just takes a lot of work so we haven't done it yet. But it's something we want to work towards for absolutely sure.
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Add star Howard T<howard@musegames.com> Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 7:51 PM
To: Ceres Bane <ceresbane@gmail.com>
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It could be interesting that if we have mission based tutorial, once they complete them for each class or mechanic, they graduate immediately.
Yeah I know what you mean. It's just a tough balance between needing them to learn, but not trying to force them to. Yeah maybe we need to force them more. One additional concern is also that, when people buy this game that's supposed to give them all gameplay related contents, if we hard lock them for a bit, people might feel cheated. I know that might be a secondary concern, but it's one I have anyway.
Bottomline is, yeah teaching people isn't something we've perfected yet.
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@up, salute for that
"Ammo types" and "Games types" are the tutorials we desperately need
Going back to the subject: Division of duties on the ship connected with trust for your crewmates is 'very' important. (especially as engineer) You need to make some kind of agreement on how you run a ship and both trust the second guy to do his part good and deserve to be trusted to do your part good. Also - communication! Communication! COMMUNICAAAATIOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!
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never really needed that personally i just used common sense.
Oh look the balloon popped and the hull is down. Whole crew is running to hull... ok... I guess its my job to fix the balloon since they never realise we kinda need that in a game about flying in the air.
Update
Dedicated servers a possible solution? Moreover dedicated servers confirmed to be in the works?
Well it comes down to 2 major issues really and deciding the lesser evil.
The new player base being put off by the harsh learning curve that is
surviving the pub lobbies (since they never stay in novice due to its
low population despite the high novice population during sales) and
steadily losing your veteran population with frustration.
That is the game as it is now.
Or the reverse occurring, The alternative is having novices hard
locked with other people of their ability level. And vets due to the
low population of the vets (and possibly middle level graduates),in
pub go into novice matches (not allowing them to be pilots- pilots
are the real deciders of stacking in this game) to play more easy
matches than advanced pub.
So basically give higher level players the ability to control the
population (this includes ability to invite novices to advanced
lobbies and stay for as long as they are in said lobby/crew form) than
the lower level ones as opposed to the reverse. Playing quality on
average increases as a result. The advance pub stabilises and the
novice population stabilises.
Frankly I would much prefer to voluntarily come into a situation than
it being forced upon me.
On 3/2/15, Howard T <howard@musegames.com> wrote:
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Add star Howard T<howard@musegames.com> Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 5:44 PM
To: Ceres Bane <ceresbane@gmail.com>, Matthew Hartman <keyvias@musegames.com>
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I mean, the harsh learning curve proportionally comes more at the hands of vets actually. But both are issues I agree.
And the other thing is, there is no great way to judge exact ability level. For me to use a metric to judge ability, that's a myth in this game. We can't strictly correlate ability with level. We're kidding ourselves if we do.
Honestly, if some vets don't want to play with players they consider lesser ability. They need to form custom games. And the complaint about wait time is really debatable given that this was the system we had before. We can debate whether people want to use it, match making is faster etc, but still, if people really want to, they get to insulate themselves from people they don't want. If people really want to make sure they play with the exact people that they want, there is a tool for that.
Also, for vets to freely opt into a more novice match smells like a disaster. So basically, we would allow not only imbalance, but vets to freely stomp, which was a big problem with the old system. I don't know what controlling the population means. I mean, if we want to make this game so new player unfriendly, and so catered to vets who are unwilling to help us shape a community and who are so averse to playing with new people, we should make dedicated servers happen asap, which we are, or we should just stop supporting the game and go home.
With dedicated servers, the vets who are so averse to playing new players can not only set up their own matches, they can set up their own rule sets as well. That might be the better solution. And of course improving the tutorial as well.
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Add star Howard T<howard@musegames.com> Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 5:59 PM
To: Ceres Bane <ceresbane@gmail.com>, Matthew Hartman <keyvias@musegames.com>
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I think the bottom line is, your point is totally valid. We need to keep reducing that learning curve, and so that by the time you can to play with new players, they are better prepared to make your experience enjoyable. But I do think that dedicated servers will help in this regard as well, as it will give you a lot more freedom and flexibility to play the game the way you want to.
And don't worry, while match balance etc are tough, and they are sometimes a sore spot for me, we're not going home, or anywhere else :D
But I do hear your points though. I'm not sure I'm totally agreeing on the solution, but I absolutely agree with the problem.
About to hop on a flight to SF for GDC.
Are you going to Pax Ceres? If I don't see you at Pax, we'll keep chatting about this.
Thanks a lot! Howard
As for this comment about community. The vets are the people that stay. They aren't the 500-700 or so sales noobies that just come in and leave as they get stomped.The vet community wants the playerbase to grow, as such I suggested that control be put to people that actually care about the community, the people IN the active community of the game, the vets.
Noobs aren't invested in anything but their chance to win and be entertained. Vets are highly involved with the games progress and direction and continue to play after years as they've become part of the essence of what makes and frankly maintains the game's playerbase indefinitely. The players themselves that have established a community around the game and maintaining enthusiasm for it.
As it stands the people that have control of the power balance are the novices that don't stay in novice. How do we know this? Because the flow is only one way. Vets cannot go into novices while novices can go into advanced pub games with no restraint.
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Also, I disagree with the learn to crew before you captain thing. I understand why some people think that way, but I do not think you need to be a good engie before you can be a good pilot. Just a matter of picking up on how to fly. Some learn quickly some don't. Not trying to start an argument, just my opinion.
Because pilots who don't understand the plight of their crews or understand how their ship handles from a crew perspective, are utter crap. Sure you can fly without crew experience but you won't learn or get better till you crew. Not that you need to stay in that state. Ideally early on, you want to be doing both, building up your experience. You won't really grasp things till you hit the mid levels. Till then it's a lot of trial and error with eureka moments. Do a little crewing, do a little piloting, rinse and repeat. Try things out on both sides as much as you can.
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@ceresbance
There was a really interesting article on polygon about player activity and feedback. http://www.polygon.com/2015/3/3/8139699/the-long-dark-early-access-gdc-2015 Basically the long dark's forum community was asking very loudly for a certain design, but when the long dark devs gathered data in-game from players they saw that the larger playerbase wanted a different design.
Also, custom rulesets on dedicated servers? VERY interesting. very interesting indeed. I am now officially hyped.
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Does anyone know wth Lanliss is talking about?
But yeah, there's a lot of things new players don't learn. Some of them are more important than others, and there's not a good way to teach all of them in a quick little tutorial. Chem spray is hugely important if they want to do well in pub games, because fire weapons, and flamers in particularly are so abused in pub matches it's not even funny (since new players don't know how to chem spray).
But there's no easy way to teach chem spray, as it's a really high level technique. You have to master timing on a variety of ships, knowing when to chem and when to repair to make sure things don't catch fire and don't break. This takes a good understanding of weapons and damage types, as well as knowing how to look at what the enemy is using.
Realistically, all the important stuff needs to be learned from more experienced players, or picked up on much slower as you play and ignore everyone. One of the problems with this is that some people think they know what they're talking about, and they're incredibly wrong. There's a surprising amount of misinformation out there that even some high level players will swear by.
The real challenge is deciding what information is the most important and currently not being taught effectively at early levels, and how to teach players this in a quick and easy fashion? There's whole novels worth of information about how to play the game, but we can't encourage them to read through all of that. Nor can we sit them through a 30 minute video.
So it's important to decide on what's important, what can wait, and how to deliver the information.
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Does anyone know wth Lanliss is talking about?
But yeah, there's a lot of things new players don't learn. Some of them are more important than others, and there's not a good way to teach all of them in a quick little tutorial. Chem spray is hugely important if they want to do well in pub games, because fire weapons, and flamers in particularly are so abused in pub matches it's not even funny (since new players don't know how to chem spray).
But there's no easy way to teach chem spray, as it's a really high level technique. You have to master timing on a variety of ships, knowing when to chem and when to repair to make sure things don't catch fire and don't break. This takes a good understanding of weapons and damage types, as well as knowing how to look at what the enemy is using.
Realistically, all the important stuff needs to be learned from more experienced players, or picked up on much slower as you play and ignore everyone. One of the problems with this is that some people think they know what they're talking about, and they're incredibly wrong. There's a surprising amount of misinformation out there that even some high level players will swear by.
The real challenge is deciding what information is the most important and currently not being taught effectively at early levels, and how to teach players this in a quick and easy fashion? There's whole novels worth of information about how to play the game, but we can't encourage them to read through all of that. Nor can we sit them through a 30 minute video.
So it's important to decide on what's important, what can wait, and how to deliver the information.
If you don't put in the time then what the hell are you doing playing the game? Is getting schooled such a fun thing?
They can say the "we're only having fun" excuse as much as they want but I won't believe for a second that its fun waiting in a 200 second lobby only to lose in about 200 seconds.
You don't play a competitive game for the participation award. You play to get good and beat people.
My novice AI is diligently learning all 3 classes as I instructed and rapidly he's becoming a freakin monster. Why? Because any information that goes in is properly internalised and diligently refined with practice.
But case in point, all the info is given in the game. Not as spelled out as one would think on some aspects but intelligence speaks for alot for filling in the gaps.
At the core of this, we pretty much have to narrow down how to teach an imbecile thats too lazy to learn?
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As surprising as this may sound, it turns out that people do in fact play games for fun. Even more surprising, browsing through guides and trudging through tutorials isn't fun. Go figure. A lot of people like to jump in and learn as they go, and with this game being so different than other games, you can't actually do that very effectively.
The goal is to give new players a running start, or at least a trot. They don't have to come in knowing everything, but they should have a solid foundation so that the learning curve isn't as steep and unforgiving. Players that listen and want to learn are great, but they are the minority. Some players come from gaming communities full of trolls and rude players, so they tend to turn off voice/ignore players. Others just want to learn and experiment on their own, and don't want to put up with someone trying to instruct their every move.
We can't teach everyone, because not everyone wants to be taught. But if we could find a way to have necessary information be more accessible to newer players without overwhelming them, the community would greatly benefit from it.
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Also, I disagree with the learn to crew before you captain thing. I understand why some people think that way, but I do not think you need to be a good engie before you can be a good pilot. Just a matter of picking up on how to fly. Some learn quickly some don't. Not trying to start an argument, just my opinion.
You can learn how to fly a ship. How to dodge. When to burn tools. When to fight. When to run.
You will not learn to be a commander.
Without knowing how to run your ship you will never be a great pilot in this game.
Learn a ships arcs as a gunner. Learn how much of a beating your ship can take as an engineer.
With knowledge of both of these things. You can push your ship to the absolute limit- which will make you better than the rest.
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As surprising as this may sound, it turns out that people do in fact play games for fun.
Salute.
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These are supposed to be core ideas that can be understood before ever playing the game. Something like chem spray and buffs is important but more advanced.
Also, ceresbane, if everyone thought like you, no one would play this game. That's the problem with all the discussion about new players right now. They have every right to just jump in and play the game without having to practice for hours and take orders from from some delusional captain like you who thinks they have real authority. They bought a game. It's not supposed to be a second job.
But the point of this thread is to have a few simple lines of information available that will drastically cut down on the amount of conflict and improve the gameplay experience for everyone. Because these ideas are pretty much unique to goi and need to be explicitly stated.
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Does anyone know wth Lanliss is talking about?
Specify which part confuses you, I will elaborate if I can.
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'Do not use exchanger on flamer'
'Abuse the shell out of mino before it gets merged'
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As, that was auto correct. People responded before I could edit it, since I did not notice it when I first posted it.
Do not us Lochnager* on flamer
Abuse the hell* out of mino before it gets nerfed.
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(http://i.imgur.com/B36iZt9.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/2EU5qkN.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/QXYNjHz.png)
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That is amazing, thank you. We need more info pics like this. Maybe that would help new players learn these things.
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*sigh* It seems the exact same problem, only worded differently.
What is boils down to is that people don't want to wait until new players get good. So many threads and so many discussions are about the new players and what to do with them.
*Stands on Soapbox*
Guys, we were all the newbie at some point. We all didn't start the game knowing the best path for chem spray cycles were, or what ammo is the best for which gun with what build. Heck even now I argue with people about ammo types because some are honestly up to preference. And that's something you can't learn except through experience.
I agree the tutorials could use a bit of spit and polish. I agree fully that there is more information that can be used in them.
However...
I will state firmly that even if you had all the information, knew what did what, there are things you can not learn until you practice them. When I first started this game, I read forums. I went through threads, I watch pro play before I even played one game so I could get a leg up. And it was not enough for my first few games. Because even though I knew more then most my level, I needed to actually put the information I had to use to learn it right. I got good because I met players that were willing to teach me, and stayed because I made friends with them.
Gun arming times with different ammo, cool down rates with different tools with different parts, the turning and velocity for each ship....only by playing the game can you get the feel of it. No tutorial can give you all the information in one go and expect it to stick doing it once. You have to learn by doing and practicing it. And with the player pool as small as it is, it's something that people need to understand and work with.
If the new player truly wants to learn, and you as a veteran do not teach them, it is your failing, not theirs.
*Gets off soapbox, equips chem-spray*
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*sigh* It seems the exact same problem, only worded differently.
What is boils down to is that people don't want to wait until new players get good. So many threads and so many discussions are about the new players and what to do with them.
*Stands on Soapbox*
Guys, we were all the newbie at some point. We all didn't start the game knowing the best path for chem spray cycles were, or what ammo is the best for which gun with what build. Heck even now I argue with people about ammo types because some are honestly up to preference. And that's something you can't learn except through experience.
I agree the tutorials could use a bit of spit and polish. I agree fully that there is more information that can be used in them.
However...
I will state firmly that even if you had all the information, knew what did what, there are things you can not learn until you practice them. When I first started this game, I read forums. I went through threads, I watch pro play before I even played one game so I could get a leg up. And it was not enough for my first few games. Because even though I knew more then most my level, I needed to actually put the information I had to use to learn it right. I got good because I met players that were willing to teach me, and stayed because I made friends with them.
Gun arming times with different ammo, cool down rates with different tools with different parts, the turning and velocity for each ship....only by playing the game can you get the feel of it. No tutorial can give you all the information in one go and expect it to stick doing it once. You have to learn by doing and practicing it. And with the player pool as small as it is, it's something that people need to understand and work with.
If the new player truly wants to learn, and you as a veteran do not teach them, it is your failing, not theirs.
*Gets off soapbox, equips chem-spray*
Salutes! o7 <3
You should stay on the soap box.
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*sigh* It seems the exact same problem, only worded differently.
What is boils down to is that people don't want to wait until new players get good. So many threads and so many discussions are about the new players and what to do with them.
*Stands on Soapbox*
Guys, we were all the newbie at some point. We all didn't start the game knowing the best path for chem spray cycles were, or what ammo is the best for which gun with what build. Heck even now I argue with people about ammo types because some are honestly up to preference. And that's something you can't learn except through experience.
I agree the tutorials could use a bit of spit and polish. I agree fully that there is more information that can be used in them.
However...
I will state firmly that even if you had all the information, knew what did what, there are things you can not learn until you practice them. When I first started this game, I read forums. I went through threads, I watch pro play before I even played one game so I could get a leg up. And it was not enough for my first few games. Because even though I knew more then most my level, I needed to actually put the information I had to use to learn it right. I got good because I met players that were willing to teach me, and stayed because I made friends with them.
Gun arming times with different ammo, cool down rates with different tools with different parts, the turning and velocity for each ship....only by playing the game can you get the feel of it. No tutorial can give you all the information in one go and expect it to stick doing it once. You have to learn by doing and practicing it. And with the player pool as small as it is, it's something that people need to understand and work with.
If the new player truly wants to learn, and you as a veteran do not teach them, it is your failing, not theirs.
*Gets off soapbox, equips chem-spray*
Salutes! o7 <3
You should stay on the soap box.
Hell no, we need to get her a better soapbox!
o7
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Or a marble podium! 8)
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I don't think we've ever had issues with a new player that wants to learn. Those are by far the most loved players in all of GoIO.
It would be lovely if every new player applied themselves to become amazing players, but the vast majority are simply here to play a game, not devote hours to learning game mechanics.
What I would like, and I think what the OP and others want is a way to give new players a solid foundation on which to start playing the game, delivered in a relatively simple fashion. I wouldn't expect them to be able to watch a five minute video and be masters of chemical spray rotations, pilot tools, buff timing, damage types and shot timing, arming time, etc etc. But to know enough so that when those things start showing up, they're able to pick up on them effectively instead of it being a completely foreign concept.
When people first come into the game, they fail to realize that different parts of the ship are in fact different parts of the ship; and assume the whole ship is a single giant hit box. They don't understand damage types and how those affect different parts of the ship. So they won't time their explosive shots to hit the hull and they'll aim the gat at the balloon and the carronade at the armor. They won't try to snipe out guns with the artemis or field gun. They'll keep the flamethrower fixed on a single part of the ship instead of trying to torch everything.
They don't understand the very basics of chemical spray (which is that it -prevents- fire for a period of time, not good at putting out fires) so they can't understand about chemical spray cycles. They don't understand the difference between repair and rebuild and will start malleting away at the broken armor. They don't understand cooldown times so they'll mallet the balloon with 10 stacks of fire and sit there for the remaining 9 seconds trying to put the fire out, or continuing to hit it until it's fully repaired before running off to the next thing.
I won't even begin to list the things they don't know about piloting, because it's literally everything about piloting (ever seen a new player jump on the helm for a first time and the ship starts going up and down as they blatantly ignore the tool tip on how to operate the throttle?)
So the most basic of basics I feel that new players need to help them get off to a good start and allow them to learn the more advanced techniques on their own is:
Cooldowns
Damage types
Ship components
Some Tool effects
Weapon Basics (long-short range, general ammo effects, damage type)
Teamwork
Teamwork is the most important, but not many people pay attention to it. I don't like seeing players that try to do everything on the ship, from flying to shooting and fixing. Or having all three crew members run to the hull when it breaks, then all of them run to the balloon when that breaks, and no one stays near the hull as your ship continues to take damage. Getting them to realize and appreciate that there are other people on the ship and they need to work together and divide the labor instead of trying to handle everything.
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If the new player truly wants to learn, and you as a veteran do not teach them, it is your failing, not theirs.
lol that is the dumbest bollocks I ever heard (check that privilege). No person has any obligation to do that. If a person wants to learn, they will ask questions, they will read manuals, they will google wikis, they will find read forum posts, etc.
It's like that time college students complained that they had to do RESEARCH BY THEMSELVES to get all the info needed for a paper and gather citations for it.
You expected your lecturer to do that all for you?
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If the new player truly wants to learn, and you as a veteran do not teach them, it is your failing, not theirs.
lol that is the dumbest bollocks I ever heard (check that privilege). No person has any obligation to do that. If a person wants to learn, they will ask questions, they will read manuals, they will google wikis, they will find read forum posts, etc.
It's like that time college students complained that they had to do RESEARCH BY THEMSELVES to get all the info needed for a paper and gather citations for it.
You expected your lecturer to do that all for you?
Hearing knowledge from your elderly generally tends to involve nothing more than a direct question and an even more direct answer, while googling a wiki about it will give literally every information and might take more time.
"If they really wanna learn then they SHOULD look at the more detailed source"
Well, do they need to know how much damage a carronade does in its wiki page? Or is it simpler to know that it two shots balloons and does roughly 45% the DPS of a gatling on armor? Does the wiki say that in a blenderfish vs blenderfish you can pop one shot into their carro, another in their balloon and let your captain ram it down?
Some things can just be grasped with basics, and some things arent mentioned in the wiki.
I'm not trying to defend this "obligation" to teach here so dont lash out on me with it, I'm only defending why its a good idea to teach. Besides, GOI has a small playerbase, if you wanna keep the game alive as long asyou can you and every veteran should oblige themselves to teach.
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If the new player truly wants to learn, and you as a veteran do not teach them, it is your failing, not theirs.
lol that is the dumbest bollocks I ever heard (check that privilege). No person has any obligation to do that. If a person wants to learn, they will ask questions, they will read manuals, they will google wikis, they will find read forum posts, etc.
It's like that time college students complained that they had to do RESEARCH BY THEMSELVES to get all the info needed for a paper and gather citations for it.
You expected your lecturer to do that all for you?
Such a hypocrite, spewing foul mouthed insults towards other people, yet you are the one who claims to -Tell new players what to do- and the one who frequently complains when (you the self proclaimed vet) the new players fail to listen to you doing exactly what you claim to be "Bollocks."
Stop and think to yourself, Sarabelle tells a line which makes you look like one of the good guys, because you (by your claims) are not failing as a vet according to her statement..
And then you tell her that's bollocks?
Quit the verbal diarrhoea, think before you post or don't post at all.
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If the new player truly wants to learn, and you as a veteran do not teach them, it is your failing, not theirs.
lol that is the dumbest bollocks I ever heard (check that privilege). No person has any obligation to do that. If a person wants to learn, they will ask questions, they will read manuals, they will google wikis, they will find read forum posts, etc.
It's like that time college students complained that they had to do RESEARCH BY THEMSELVES to get all the info needed for a paper and gather citations for it.
You expected your lecturer to do that all for you?
I hate to pull the "I have more matches than you" card, but I have more matches than you, and when you have a player who wants to learn and you don't teach them, you're doing a disservice to the community. I've seen so many great new players who stick around and learn the game well just because I spent a few matches explaining things. New players who want to learn are what keep this game alive. I'm beginning to think you just hate new players all around, whether they are uncooperative or otherwise, and that attitude is going to kill GoI
In short:
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/hhn.gif)
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Is this how CAs are supposed to act?
And as feisty as Maxy worded it, he does make a good point, and it's a point that's been brought up over and over again.
There is no obligation for an experienced player to teach a novice, and there shouldn't be. This is why not every player has teaching or CA privileges, they don't want to do this, they just want to play the game. Whether this is no fun for them or they hate new players doesn't make a lick of a difference.
Sure it would be nice if every single vet decided to be a helpful and constructive player willing to assist other players, but it's also nice to be able to fart rainbows. Both of these events are equally possible of being realistic.
So let's stop attacking players, take a deep breath, and move back into the realm of actual possibilities.
Having every vet do this is impossible. Having -more- vets do this is entirely possible. How could we make that happen?
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when you have a player who wants to learn and you don't teach them, you're doing a disservice to the community
Woah, that's a bit too much of a generalisation, I think. I mean, I'll play the "devil's advocate" for a moment (since this thread turned into Ceres vs. Everyone court battle) and say that regardless of your position as a CA or match count you cannot say that someone as a player is obliged to teach (new) people, and if he/she's not willing to - his doing a disservice. Why? Because veterans, just like new players, many times want just to go and play and have fun - and if they're not willing to teach new players it's their law. It's not like they're kicking children or something, they just want to have a good time with players of their skill, and in that matter I support Ceres because I have similar opinion on the matter. I 'may' sometimes teach but I want to have a safe option to play without dealing with new players, since they are mostly pain in the ass, as of my experience at least. Remember that vets are players and people too! :P
Also - taking it to 'ad absurdum' argument - following that logic every competetive-level player should spend most of his time teaching, instead of practicing or... just playing. How those selfish bastards can even look at the mirror? We must assure such IMMORAL disgusting people don't reproduce.
(PS. The last two sentences was an irony.)
I think Thomas have a good point with the list of areas that new players tend not to grasp. Also for me it's important to learn 'what' instead of 'why'. I mean, for a long time I was using greased in gatling just because some veteran told me it's the best ammo (later I confirmed it in Wundsalz's guide) - and it was good enough for me.
Also, this is personal note; I think you guys should be more careful with words since you are CA's and (in a way) you are quite representative part of the community. I'm not saying you shouldn't make your arguments, just be careful.
Edit: It turned out that I posted almost the same time as Thomas did. I'm not editing this, just when I mentioned his post I didn't mean the one above, I meant the previous one.
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While I do believe that the CAs should be a little more careful with their words, I also think the community should too. Jazzhands spits abuse on most of the responses I have seen from him. Since it is the CAs job to police these forums and prevent that kind of abuse, I can understand them turning against him. Both sides could make their points equally well without getting abusive, but the CAs are not going nearly as far as Jazz.
On to the obligation part. Is it required to teach new players? No, but if you want to help keep the community running common sense says you should. There are only so many CAs that can teach new players in the novice element. Everyone doesn't have to, but it would be nice if a few more players could pick up a bit of the slack. It is not required, you can't be banned for simply refusing to teach new players, but there is no reason not to every now and then.
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Oh I thought it went without saying that not everyone is required to teach new players if they don't want to, I just found it rather rude one person claims they tell players how to do things then attacks another persons opinion that Vets should (where they want to) teach new players. (and not be abusive about it of they do not want to.)
Getting the thread back on track I'll quote something by Thomas which I think sums it up beautifully.
Having every vet do this is impossible. Having -more- vets do this is entirely possible. How could we make that happen?
By worrying less about how Muse can change the game and concentrating more on how the community can have fun in games with players who are new.
Lots of us enjoy playing with our friends and playing with our teams to practice, but maybe we could all put a little effort in to creating a custom lobby, one vet pilot per ship and leaving the rest to match maker, chances are we'll be given the newer players and with just four good people can have a relatively balanced match with the goal of teaching newer players who (most likely) will be put aboard our ships.
If we wanted to go whole hog, eight vets, one pilot per ship, four spectators, have one spectator set up a party with a ship each, and give hints and tips on the go during the match.
If people are interested in doing such a thing.
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:')
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While I do believe that the CAs should be a little more careful with their words, I also think the community should too. Jazzhands spits abuse on most of the responses I have seen from him. Since it is the CAs job to police these forums and prevent that kind of abuse, I can understand them turning against him. Both sides could make their points equally well without getting abusive, but the CAs are not going nearly as far as Jazz.
On to the obligation part. Is it required to teach new players? No, but if you want to help keep the community running common sense says you should. There are only so many CAs that can teach new players in the novice element. Everyone doesn't have to, but it would be nice if a few more players could pick up a bit of the slack. It is not required, you can't be banned for simply refusing to teach new players, but there is no reason not to every now and then.
Even I teach. Denying the fact that most vets teach (got the achieve and everything) seeing as its part of the culture is BESIDES THE POINT.
I just got back from teaching my AI babies mine shooting and my current prodigy Lumber, hades and heavy carronade and component sniping. I teach those worth my time.
NO ONE HAS ANY OBLIGATION TO HOLD ANYONE'S HAND. In the end it is the player themselves that decides and ascertains whether they improve or not.
If I teach and nothing goes in. I'm not teaching that person. End of. There's no benefit for me to teach them nor any need for me to put in that extra mile to drill in something thats not going in. If a player wants to improve, they will (and I will nurture that). If not, get off my ship, get off my team, I don't give a crap about your excuses I am not losing an easy game because you want to be an idiot.
This game has a wealth of info, albeit out of the beaten path, but its not like search engines don't exist or something. It's there to be found to those that want to find it.
If anything I have more respect for capable noobs than any of you, as I am not going in with the expectation that they should be coddled like goddamn toddlers with every step of the way.
A good new player learns by his own initiative and my AIs show this, hence they are under my wing and I can afford patience as I see OBVIOUS growth and ACTUAL passion for playing this game.
A scrub is gonna be a scrub. No vet is gonna stop it from being a scrub. The scrub has to do it himself, and no vet has no obligation to help them (FACT), but many will readily do so.
So piss off with your bollocks allegations. I do things my way, I don't give a crap if you suppose your conjecture of me is immoral. I teach who I want to teach, I admonish who I want to admonish. And I do it with my reasons and justifications, not yours.
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Can someone lock this thread please? It has devolved into the same garbage that inspired it. I'll just write an email.
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You might have more respect for capable moons then most, but you seem to have no respect for just about anyone else. Someone being bad is not really a reason to throw around insults. If you think someone is intentionally being difficult, feel free to insult them a bit, but there is no reason to insult someone who simply has not learned from you. People learn at different places, something that neither you nor the public school system(in America at least) seems to accept. Correct me if I am wrong, but from the looks of your writing, you refuse to teach anyone who is not at least above average. It is fine, feel free to teach whoever you want, but there is absolutely no reason to put down everyone else. You do not seem to understand the power you have over new players. If someone joins your ship, fresh in from a sale, or maybe even having bought the game at full prices, and you tell them "gtfo, you suck too bad to play with me" that is severely damaging. It breaks their confidence, when all they did was get unlucky enough to land on a decent crew hike they had no experience, and it damages the reputation of the community. If someone plays with you, immediately being told they suck and to leave, they will likely leave. I would, who wants to be part of such a poisonous community? Teach who you will, but please, be polite to everyone else.
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Locked at OP's request.