Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Indreams on January 26, 2015, 05:12:29 pm
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I made a graph of ships a few months ago. I've been meaning to create a graph of weapons, but I haven't even started.
Instead, I've done a little scenario calculation.
Scenario:
A pyramidion, at the same altitude as yourself, is charging towards you at maximum speed (32m/s). You know that pyramidion's weakness is maneuverability. You decide to change the altitude to dodge the incoming gat/mortar destruction.
Using basic kinematic physics, I've calculated the following.
Results:
If you decide to move up/down, from rest, when the pyramidion is at 500m,
Pyramidion will come to your position in 15.625 Seconds.
If you are a...
Junker: move maximum of 218.055m up or down.
Galleon: move maximum of 201.483m up or down.
Squid: move maximum of 229.5m up or down.
Goldfish: move maximum of 221.06m up or down.
Spire: move maximum of 227.092m up or down.
Mobula: move maximum of 246.492m up or down.
And the Pyramidion, if it decides to match your motion, can move up to 212.796m up or down.
In same Scenario, with Pyramidion at 300m
Pyramidion will reach get to you in 9.375 Seconds.
Junker: 111.43m
Galleon: 95.171m
Squid: 123.25m
Goldfish: 114.872m
Spire: 120.842m
Mobula: 140.179m
Pyramdion can match up to: 106.734m
In same Scenario, with Pyramidion at 200m
Pyramidion will reach get to you in 6.25 Seconds.
Junker: 58.1177m
Galleon: 49.9453m
Squid: 70.125m
Goldfish: 61.7783m
Spire: 67.7167m
Mobula: 87.0232m
Pyramdion can match up to: 54.7023m
In same Scenario, with Pyramidion at 100m
Pyramidion will reach get to you in 3.125 Seconds.
Junker: 14.6484m
Galleon: 10.9863m
Squid: 19.5314m
Goldfish: 15.8691m
Spire: 18.3105m
Mobula: 33.8669m
Pyramdion can match up to: 13.4277m
In same Scenario, with Pyramidion at 50m
Pyramidion will reach get to you in 1.5625 Seconds.
Junker: 3.66211m
Galleon: 2.74658m
Squid: 4.88281m
Goldfish: 3.96729m
Spire: 4.57764m
Mobula: 9.15527m
Pyramdion can match up to: 3.35693m
And this is about it for now. Read through the calculations. If there are anybody willing, check my math.
Let's discuss Pyramidion with some numbers. :)
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As much fun as doing math is, I am not sure how these numbers will help in game decision making. The numbers you should really be concerned with when trying to out maneuver an enemy ship are the maximum turn angles of the guns vs your ship position. Even if were to calculate all those things I doubt you could ever look up the appropriate figure mid battle. So do what the rest of us do and use experience and your gut feeling to choose when and how to dodge.
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Now calculate for pilot tools :D
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Current pyra armor damage Goal: 1045 (This is the number you want to hit with damage to get the pyras armor down.)
Im saying that because buffed pyra armor is 845 i belive with +200 mallet repair. Not giving in the account for spanners.
Also correct me if im wrong.
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I really just wanted to get an idea about what you can do.
And, being a math nerd, I love doing calculation for things I care about. School makes me do calculation for stuff I don't care about.
Examining the values, I can get some ideas about how to play the game.
These are four conclusions that helps me.
1.) Beginning of gat range (around 500. I think the base value is 450) is bad moment to start moving. I should move about 3~4 seconds after I head the first piercing sound. At 500, a closing Pyra captain has about 15 solid seconds to react, and he will match my vertical movements.
2.) Junker should not attempt to move over a pyra. Pyra can match the vertical movement of a Junker. My new tactic is to go under (where 1~6m difference will let me balloon block) or to go to the blind side. I'm scraping "my go over and get behind them" tactic.
3.) I need to use Pilot tools against a pyra. The vertical difference isn't as great as I thought it was.
4.) Mobula should always use the vertical advantage against a Pyra. Mobula seems to get a consistent 40~50m advantage on a Pyra.
I would calculate for every possible scenario if I could. This is my little model that helps me (and I hope others) feel a little more secure about their plays. This really helps me because: I had a lot of fun working on this in my statistics class (I have near perfect score in that class), and I'm a nerd who feels security in knowing stuff like, dps of a gatling.
I wish I could go with gut feelings and experience, but I'm still not very experiences, and my gut feeling never tells me anything except its hungry.
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Current pyra armor damage Goal: 1045 (This is the number you want to hit with damage to get the pyras armor down.)
Im saying that because buffed pyra armor is 845 i belive with +200 mallet repair. Not giving in the account for spanners.
Also correct me if im wrong.
I think that's about right, except mallet is 250 health.
So its actually 650 (base) * 1.3 (buff) + 250 (mallet) = 1095. That's just about a clip of base gatling.
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If you like math try this one:
Take the maxmimum forward speed of a pyramidion subtract the maximum backward speed of a mobula and call that "closing speed".
Then find the difference between the maximum range of a gateling gun when using lesmok vs using greased and call that the "uncontested shooting range"
Divide "uncontested shooting range" by "closing speed" to find "uncontested shooting time"
Multiply uncontested shooting time by the DPS of 2 lesmok Gatling guns against armor.
If that value is greater than Crafeksterty's 1045 then you can strip a pyra's hull armor before it gets in to gat range by kiting a 2x gat 1 morter mobula with a lesmok engineer build.
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If you like math try this one:
Take the maxmimum forward speed of a pyramidion subtract the maximum backward speed of a mobula and call that "closing speed".
Then find the difference between the maximum range of a gateling gun when using lesmok vs using greased and call that the "uncontested shooting range"
Divide "uncontested shooting range" by "closing speed" to find "uncontested shooting time"
Multiply uncontested shooting time by the DPS of 2 lesmok Gatling guns against armor.
If that value is greater than Crafeksterty's 1045 then you can strip a pyra's hull armor before it gets in to gat range by kiting a 2x gat 1 morter mobula with a lesmok engineer build.
I've been on the receiving end of that.... and the mortar gunner was already shooting high to account for hydro dodge too, you can imagine the outcome...
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If you like math try this one:
Take the maxmimum forward speed of a pyramidion subtract the maximum backward speed of a mobula and call that "closing speed".
Then find the difference between the maximum range of a gateling gun when using lesmok vs using greased and call that the "uncontested shooting range"
Divide "uncontested shooting range" by "closing speed" to find "uncontested shooting time"
Multiply uncontested shooting time by the DPS of 2 lesmok Gatling guns against armor.
If that value is greater than Crafeksterty's 1045 then you can strip a pyra's hull armor before it gets in to gat range by kiting a 2x gat 1 morter mobula with a lesmok engineer build.
That's actually a very interesting math, if not a very complicated one.
Lesmok gives +70% muzzle velocity. And I believe that when ships fly backward, the muzzle velocity, and ultimately the range is effected. I believe the same will go for the chasing pyramidion, which will likely have its range increased. And although gatling's range is 450m, we know that it isn't overly accurate at max range, especially against a ship with low profile, as Pyramidion is when facing their enemy.
Regardless, my nerdness has been intrigued. Give me about an hour and I'll find out if I can work this.
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Actually, didn't take me that long...
There were two problems in making calculations for this. First, I don't know how fast Mobula flies backward (max speed). Second, I am not very familiar with Guns of Icarus's gun physics. But the point of these mathematics are creating models.
Gatling has a range of 450m with projectile speed of 500m/s. That says the bullet stays alive for .9 seconds.
Lesmok increases your gatling bullet's speed to 500 * 1.7 = 850m/s. I assume, as I am not familiar with Mobula's backward speed, that the Mobula is moving at around 24m/s (Mobula's max forward speed is 28m/s). So, Mobula's range is .9s * (850m/s - 24m/s) = 743.5m.
Similar calculation on the Pyramidion, with muzzle velocity of 400m/s, forward max velocity of 32m/s , gives the range of 388.8m.
That's a difference of 354.6m in range. Seeing that the Pyramidion closes range at 8m/s, that gives the mobula 44.325 seconds to fire.
Given that I had insufficient data, and that the bullet's range was actually shorter than my calculation, I will say that the Mobula has less than 44 seconds to fire. But I can't imagine that the window is less than twenty seconds.
Gatling, with the fire rate of 8.33 bullets per second, with its reduced clip size of 57, will fire its entire clip in 6.8 seconds. in 18.7 seconds, the gatling will have fired full clip, reloaded, and fired full clip again. That is 855 (base damage) * 1.5 (armor modifier) = 1282.5 damage. Given inaccuracy but also given an additional gatling, I believe that Crafeksterty's armor of 1045 is ensured dead in under twenty seconds.
Conclusion? If Mobula can stay inside the "uncontested shooting range" for twenty seconds, its two gatlings will break the armor. If the mortar gunner is good, the pyramidion will be dead.
Gameplay Conclusion? This is a real, valid tactic. I have a new Mobula build, thanks to Hamster IV. Sadly, I just spend today's GOIO time doing this math, so I cannot try it out today. However, I've had more fun than I would have if I played two/three matches with several fresh players. In fact, I'm scared that I enjoyed this too much. Thank you Hamster! :)
Now? I need to work on AP Chemistry. I hope to eventually figure put the composition of addictive, gooey, white stuff we put in our Chem Spray. Perhaps it is the legendary Zukasauce.
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Current pyra armor damage Goal: 1045 (This is the number you want to hit with damage to get the pyras armor down.)
Im saying that because buffed pyra armor is 845 i belive with +200 mallet repair. Not giving in the account for spanners.
Also correct me if im wrong.
As I understand pyramidion hull armour has 600hp currently.
The buff hammer provides a +30% hp buff.
Therefore buffed pyra hull armour should have 780hp.
The mallet allows an engineer to repair the hull every 9s for 250hp.
So if we assume the engineer is doing a perfect job and the hull is not suffering from any fire stacks an engineer could potentially repair 1000hp (4*250) within 40s (36s).
This would make your target dmg much higher, at 780hp +250hp per 9s of combat in order to take the pyra's hull armour down.
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I need to get some more updated datas then.
Are the Lusse's journal and Wilson's note (the in-game manuals) up to date? For real?
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Thats the question. I havent looked into those books too much because they dont give all the info, and some may even be outdated info.
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And this is about it for now. Read through the calculations. If there are anybody willing, check my math.
Uhm, correct me if I'm wrong, but you haven't presented your calculations, have you?
Thats the question. I havent looked into those books too much because they dont give all the info, and some may even be outdated info.
Can you give an example of outdated Wilson note info, please?
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As I understand pyramidion hull armour has 600hp currently.
The buff hammer provides a +30% hp buff.
On this page http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/ships-3/ it says that Pyramidion armor is 650.
Thats the question. I havent looked into those books too much because they dont give all the info, and some may even be outdated info.
Can you give an example of outdated Wilson note info, please?
How do you check outdated info in the Wilson notes? It's one of the only thing we players can rely on. Unless you want to go through the effort of checking all the stats yourself through weapon damage on armor and stuff.
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I said it "may" because last time i remember pyramideons weight at some point being listed incorrectly in the books because it got patched. I believe they fixed stats in the book to also tell ingame accurate stats, but i still distrust it.
Oh and ... I have had something written down before which was suppoused to be double hades heavy flak spire (Which needs crew to be topnotch gunners). With the goal of killing pyramideons.
One Heavy flak Shot does 99 armor damage (160 if buffed)
Lochnagar HF does 242 armor damage (404 if buffed)
One Heavy flak shot does 462 Hull damage (528 if buffed)
Lochnagar HF does 1131 hull damage (1300 if buffed)
If the heavy flak takes away the armor with 50% of the damage, then the other 50%
(if it was a lochnagar shot) will deal 650 health damage.
Hades shot does 68Pierce + 24Fire = 92 (buffed is 119) armor damage per direct over arming time hit.
9 shots equals 828 armor damage (1100 for 12 shots, 11 shots is 1010) (Buffed pyra armor is 845+200 mallet=-1045-)
7 Buffed Shots equals 833 armor damage (1400 for 12 shots, 9 shots is 1070)
6 normal shots (552) + 6 buffed shots (714) = 1250
This means that 2 buffed Lesmok Hades can only miss 3 out of 12 shots (One hades can miss 2, other misses 1) (Easier shots though)
If both have default and buffed, they can miss 7 out of 16 shots combined. (4-3 shots per hades) (Unbuffed can only miss 5 shots Combined)
If both hades have Greased and buffed they can only miss 9 out of 20 shots combined (difficulty of shot is higher though)
I want to ask you guys and tell me which ammo type is better.
Personaly i think default is pretty good but in combination with a 2 hades heavy flak spire,
i feel like lesmok would be the better choice. With a choice of changing to default.
There is also charged where it is like 4 shots if you hit 3.
buffed its 3 shots if you hit 2. Resulting in more shots can miss in comparison to Lesmok.
But the difficulty is that of default. (miss 6 shots out of 12)
Then there is burst that gives greased ammount of shots where
you can miss 2 extra shots from default. Like 9 out of 20 missed shots combined.
A bonus to this is how the burst spreads more fire between components.
The Aoe is pretty big actually. However the DPS is a bit slower.
With this data, i kinda want a tool that can see enemy armor.
"If you miss, try to hit"
-Crafek
Its a note long time ago, which when i tried the build, it was dooable... with AI. and not humans. Suprising i know that AI would be the better crew, but thats because having 2 gun engineers that can hit their shots with an added heavy flak that times it shot is super demanding on a spire. Especialy stressfull if a pyra is charging for you :P
But in all, it was interresting trying to target the pyras armor with a build specific to make pyra life quick.
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Here's another scenario we can put our mind to.
I've seen several captains go long-range spire to fight a metamidion. I think the typical build is mercury, artemis, flak/lumber, with a close range option.
Because pyra's front profile is two guns and all hull, the speed of the metamidion is unaffected.
If the spire sits still, and pyra charges at full speed of 32m/s, can the spire snipe out the metamidion before resorting to the close range option? I'll get on this math once I'm comfortably situated at home with the datas I need. Anybody is welcome to think about this one.
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But in all, it was interresting trying to target the pyras armor with a build specific to make pyra life quick.
On that note I have a Mobula build that might be of interest:
A Mobula with Mercury, Hades, lesmok Gatling and a little banshee.
Mercury and Hades in long range, gunner switches from Mercury to Banshee once lesmok Gatling is in range.
Mercury can disable guns in long range, Gatling only shoots when armor is up, Hades shoots always and Banshee when the enemy is close enough to be killed.
It wasn't made as an anti-Pyramidion thing, but its nature to continuously destroy armor makes it very hard for a Pyramidion to fight back as the main engineer will have no choice, but to tank the armor instead of repairing engines and is thus easier outmanouvered if the enemy pilot didn't spare the engines the damage, which he probably won't have because he wants to get closer to the Mobula so he can actually kill it. Being hull only doesn't do it well either since it makes it easier for Hades and lesmok Gatling to hit.
Similar to Squid and Goldfish. Against Goldfish the pilot of the Mobula can even occasionally jump to the Mercury and destroy the heavy gun.
#PiercingDamage
If the spire sits still, and pyra charges at full speed of 32m/s, can the spire snipe out the metamidion before resorting to the close range option? I'll get on this math once I'm comfortably situated at home with the datas I need.
A thought you should keep in mind in this scenario is: Is the Pyramidion in arc for the Spire? It might not be, heavy guns are pretty limited when it comes to arc, the lumberjack exceeds all in upwards arc of course, but still. Mercury too isn't the best when it comes to arc.
Furthermore, the Mercury might actually not be strong enough to destroy a Pyramidion armor all on its own in time (which you are calculating) and even then there is always a chance that it is accidentally, or with not choice left, hitting a component which "absorbs" all that damage.
As far as I can tell, long range Spires tend to fail, because they cannot do enough or the right type of damage quick enough while being shot at and then lack the disable to make up for it. When an enemy Pyramidion brings a Hades against the Spire, which probably has a Hades or a Mercury being shot by the main engineer, then the main engineer will not shoot that gun, he will repair the armor thus the Spire has no, or not more than the enemy, piercing damage and loses the fight.
What I do to compensate for that on the only long range Spire I have is have Mercury, double Artemis and a heavy Carronade. In long range the gunner gets on the Mercury and both engineers shoot their artemis, the disable power is of course pretty much at a maximum here. The engineers can still repair their stuff and the piercing/disable power of the Mercury is still there. In close range the gunner then switches to the Heavy Carronade and once the enemy balloon has been destroyed there is a potential of two artemis shooting the enemy plus a Carronade that keeps the enemy at a height disadvantage or just makes the armor destruction easier. A big plus on that ship is, that if the enemy destroy the Heavy Carronade in longish range already, the balloon engineer can easily pre-rebuild it.
The gunner should always shoot the most important gun, which when you have a Heavy Flak isn't the Heavy Flak, but actually the Hades/Mercury.
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If the spire sits still, and pyra charges at full speed of 32m/s, can the spire snipe out the metamidion before resorting to the close range option? I'll get on this math once I'm comfortably situated at home with the datas I need.
It depends on map and etc. Yes the spire does prolong its life by backpaddling than sitting still but it also questions the fact if there is anything behind the spire + the time in the line of sight. Instead of distance, it is the time it takes with the line of sight the spire may drop the pyra before he gets to Xmeters. Usually, in dunes 1v1 sniper spire versus close pyra is unfair as the spire will surely win solely on being able to attack first, and if the pyra does get close he will be in such repairs that the spire can juke and still take distance. Imo sniping isnt that great versus pyra if you dont have a good handle in it.
The best choice of builds is Lumberjack as it will give you enough shots and time to pulverize the pyra with the only focus is on disabling. So like, 2 artemis + lumberjack and a minelauncher or something else, defence or offencive. The lumberjack will be able to keep a ship down while artemis will have to make the pyra repair itself, going on a loop where if the pyras ally does not do anything with the spire, the pyra will die. But regarding other maps, LJ is still the better choice because of just being able to place the pyra in a position where you can then multitask something else or be safer from the enemy.
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On that note I have a Mobula build that might be of interest:
I do too and I call it the Fancy Two Carro Counter ;D
3 art gat mine
A good mine will stop a pyra in it's tracks
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On that note I have a Mobula build that might be of interest:
I do too and I call it the Fancy Two Carro Counter ;D
3 art gat mine
A good mine will stop a pyra in it's tracks
That sounds like my original Fancy GatCarroCounter! Instead of a 3rd artemis it has a flare gun though.
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I like a mine launcher instead of the flame on the meta mobula loadout (merc double art). The flame is usually on the top right wing (for the gunner) while the balloon engi stays downstairs on the artemis.
The gunner brings charged heatsink lochnagar. For close range they jump to the mine with preloaded heatsink.
I usually do heavy clip banshee carro left side because double art OP.