Sorry Gilder, but to me, we are flying airships with giant balloons, not jet fighters. You can only go so fast.
Y'all realize you just need to burst the tool and never just leave it on.
I think Hydrogen's damage is actually currently under-powered; I mean look at what it did to the Hindenburg.As it is, using hydrogen will let you take over almost any 1v1 fight if they don't have a balloon popping weapon, or hydrogen of their own. Or if they are a squid. It is usually a lot easier to attack down on somebody and keep them in check than it is to try to maneuver about and attack up at somebody.
But really, it's made to be the perfect escape item, but only for when the poo hits the fan. Muse's idea was to use a small bursts of hydrogen just to get above enemy guns and jump out of heavy enemy fire up into a cloud or something to stall just long enough to patch up the hull slightly and take care of the balloon. If people could just suddenly launch up on top of people's balloon-blindspot/uppercut their hull-blindspot/ or escape very quickly without any serious drawbacks, then every brawl match would win with the guys holding the canister of hydrogen being the winner.
| Ship | Armor | Health | Speed (m/s) | Acceleration (m/s2) | Turn Speed (degrees/s) | Turn Accel. (degrees/s2) | Vertical Speed (m/s) | Vertical Accel. (m/s2) | Mass (tonnes) |
| Goldfish | 400 | 1100 | 40.11 | 3.5 | 13.99 | 7.99 | 16.99 | 3.25 | 150 |
| Junker | 700 | 500 | 26.01 | 4.3 | 16.18 | 15.24 | 17.06 | 3.00 | 125 |
| Squid | 230 | 850 | 47.00 | 5.50 | 18.95 | 20.00 | 17.00 | 4.00 | 115 |
| Pyramidion | 650 | 700 | 32.00 | 2.50 | 11.00 | 6.25 | 16.97 | 2.75 | 200 |
| Galleon | 800 | 1400 | 30.02 | 2.10 | 8.02 | 5.06 | 17.01 | 2.25 | 320 |
| Spire | 400 | 750 | 25.99 | 3.00 | 11.99 | 15.02 | 17.00 | 3.75 | 150 |
| Mobula | 600 | 700 | 28.00 | 4.25 | 14.02 | 3.5 | 17.01 | 7.5 | 120 |
I used to be a helium/vent fiend, but since the mass changes I have found that kerosine and tar are better for getting a pyra out of trouble. The damage the items do to the ship did not factor in to my change in escape tools but rather the lack of benefit I received form it.There are a lot of uncomfortable situations one can slip out of with sudden altitude adjustments where neither kerosine nor tar can help you. I personally think hydro to be one of the most powerful steering tools for tactical relocations. It can hardly be compared and definitely not be substituted by kero/shine/claw/tar as it serves an entirely different purpose. Actually, it literally operates in another dimension.
Anyway, lets imagine a situation where the damage to balloon is reduced, and the lag time is gone. Ships are quite a bit more maneuverable now. Combat becomes a lot more dynamic.
Take a look at some competitive play. Most of the time is spent fairly level, trying to keep their enemy dead ahead. They may duck down behind cover or try to rise into/above clouds, but combat occurs head to head. Even when using guns with great downward arcs, they will have their ship follow the sinking enemy and try to keep level.
I'd like to have them be viable options in more situations, and there's not a lot of reasons to avoid giving it a buff (as in a reduction of the negative side effects as opposed to increasing the power).
The goal is make them more usable, which will likely increase their frequency in use.
If I'm burning kerosene and I might clip some terrain if I don't slow down, it's nice to use hydrogen to pop up over it a smidgeon. But then you're forced to continue rising and have a difficult time going back down.
I can't see how it would break the balance between ships at all. All we're looking for is less damage/more control. Not for an increase in power. Even now it's not as powerful as some people think, especially at the higher levels of play. They would function exactly as they do now in terms of drag and acceleration changes. Making them less devastating to use will not break the game.Hydrogen is one of the most powerful steering tools already, buffing it would certainly effect the game balance negatively. Regarding your observation of a correlation between player level and hydrogen usage, my personal experience suggests quite the opposite. I refer to hydro as a last resort option to get out of tight situations or to get quicker (back) into action. Hence my enemy needs to challenge me a bit in the first place to make me use hydro. The more experienced the enemy captains are the harder it is to get into a superior position, as they keep closer attention to what you do and know better how to react to your actions or when to take the initiative for a dirty steering trick themselves. As a result I'm forced to use hydro more often when fighting experienced pilots.
That's the kind of light touch I'm talking about. Just a tap to dip under a hwacha barrage and take it in the balloon. A small puff of hydrogen to clear a low hill that you don't want to slow down for to clear, a drop of chute vent to duck under you ally instead of bumping them. Small moderate changes that don't cost you 1/3 of the balloon and keep active well after you stopped using it. [...]a hard stop before you smack a wall, or a burst of speed to dodge a flak.Any of these maneuvers can be worth way more than 1/3 of a balloons life in many situations and if they are not, well, then it's probably best to stick to regular raising and sinking speed.
dip under a hwacha barrage and take it in the balloon.
The only reasons against the proposed balance seem to be:And some fine points have been made there.
-I don't want it changed, it's fine as it is
-You're not using it right
-But it's -really- good for dodging/escaping
-I can do that without tools
-I don't want to see it used more
-I have to use it that long anyways to see an effect
What's wrong with wanting it to be used in different situations? Damage aside, why does it need to be left on so long? What's wrong with wanting more control over it's use? Why Khan?It needs to be left on so long to restrict its usage. Currently you have to make a clear call to either use it and deal with the concequences or rather stick to conventional altitude adjustments. I like this behavior and certainly prefer it over forgiving/encouraging indeceisive, perfectly comtrollable quick altitude changes.
Pheonix Claw is op as hell.
It needs to be left on so long to restrict its usage. Currently you have to make a clear call to either use it and deal with the concequences or rather stick to conventional altitude adjustments. I like this behavior and certainly prefer it over forgiving/encouraging indeceisive, perfectly comtrollable quick altitude changes.
*headwall*I don't actually see how this is a problem. You take hydro/chute for those situational possibilities, and if they don't happen to come up in a match that's why you're able to carry three tools.
I know I mentioned it before, but the goal was to get it used more often, not spammed. To use it more often, but not used constantly. More than it's used now, but not able to flick it on and off the entire match. Right now the use of hydro and chute vent is extremely, extremely uncommon. Absurdly uncommon. You might use it once or twice in a match, you might use it not at all. I tend to carry it on most of my builds, but it hardly sees any use on a good portion of them.
*headwall*Keep smashing! As mentioned before, some people, like me, disagree with your very goal.
I know I mentioned it before, but the goal was to get it used more often, not spammed. To use it more often, but not used constantly. More than it's used now, but not able to flick it on and off the entire match. Right now the use of hydro and chute vent is extremely, extremely uncommon. Absurdly uncommon. You might use it once or twice in a match, you might use it not at all. I tend to carry it on most of my builds, but it hardly sees any use on a good portion of them.
| Ship | Vertical Speed (m/s) | Vertical Acceleration (m/s2) | Hydro/chute Speed | Hydro Accel | Chute Accel |
| Mobula | 17.01 | 7.5 | 27.22 | 33.75 | 22.5 |
| Squid | 17.00] | 4.00 | 27.2 | 18 | 12 |
| Spire | 17.00 | 3.75 | 27.2 | 16.88 | 11.25 |
| Goldfish | 16.99 | 3.25 | 27.18 | 14.63 | 9.75 |
| Junker | 17.06 | 3.00 | 27.3 | 13.5 | 9 |
| Pyramidion | 16.97 | 2.75 | 27.15 | 12.38 | 8.25 |
| Galleon | 17.01 | 2.25 | 27.22 | 10.13 | 6.75 |
This game is all about how you position your ship. How you use terrain, cloud cover, your ally as cover/bait. Buffing the balloon tools so you can doge attacks like Street Fighter would make positioning less important. You should not be able to hit one button and get out of a sticky situation that you put yourself in.
-Also, hydrogen and chute vent have never been adjusted (as far as I can tell). The only thing that changed in previous patches was ships stats. We're not looking to change ship stats. Having the above changes implemented does not allow for dancing pyra's and galleons anymore so than they are currently capable of.
And again, we're not looking for a boost in the power of the tool.You're asking for the tools negative effects to be reduced while keeping the positive ones as is. That's the very definition of a buff.
| Ship | Acceleration | Velocity | Drag | Hydro Velocity |
| Goldfish | 3.25 | 16.99 | 0.011259 | 28.493 |
| Junker | 3.00 | 17.06 | 0.010308 | 28.61 |
| Squid | 4.00 | 17.00 | 0.013841 | 28.51 |
| Pyramidian | 2.75 | 16.97 | 0.009549 | 28.46 |
| Galleon | 2.25 | 17.01 | 0.007776 | 28.527 |
| Spire | 3.75 | 17.00 | 0.012976 | 28.51 |
| Mobula | 7.5 | 17.01 | 0.025921 | 28.527 |
| Ship | Actual Peak Velocity (m/s) | Time to Reach (s) | Distance Covered in 3 seconds (m) |
| Goldfish | 22.72 | 3.99 | 42.59 |
| Junker | 22.46 | 3.99 | 40.67 |
| Squid | 23.48 | 2.99 | 47.91 |
| Pyramidion | 21.93 | 3.99 | 38.19 |
| Galleon | 20.92 | 4.99 | 33.04 |
| Spire | 23.15 | 3.99 | 46.3 |
| Mobula | 24.90 | 2.99 | 60.91 |
There ought to be a mug of coffee as a pilot item; just pour hot coffee into the engine to make the ship drastically fluctuate in vertical movement causing the ship to go up and down randomly, as well as double your speed.
Get your ship hopped up on caffeine when it's time to dodge hwachas.
I'm in favor of reducing the damage from hydro and vents.
I'm in favor of reducing the damage from hydro and vents.
Seconded