Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen

[Thomas]

I've brought this up before, but I'm doing it against because it just really bugs me. xD

Personally I think the negative side effects of the chute vent and hydrogen are significantly more... well negative than other pilot tool items, especially when you compare it to the positives.


Hydrogen
-60% vertical drag
+350% climb force
+50% chance fire ignition
75 dmg/s
Effects last for 3 seconds after deactivation


Chute Vent
-60% vertical drag
+200% descent force
65 dmg/s
Effects last for 3 seconds after deactivation


Moonshine
+200% thrust
-50% longitudinal drag
+1000% angular drag
30 dmg/s


Kerosene
+150% thrust
+300% angular drag
10 dmg/s


Phoenix Claw
-65% angular drag
+300% longitudinal drag
13 dmg/s



Balloon HP - 1200
Heavy Engine HP - 525
Light Engine HP - 300



We're going to compare the main tools for mobility. Things in green are treated as positives, while things in red are negative side effects. Things in blue can go either way (although in most cases, they're good things. Think ramming without having your ship bump off course).

The first interesting thing to note is the activation period. The balloon tools are the only ones on this list that continue to be in effect even after de-activation. (Other tools that continue are drogue chute and bumpers, which reduce engine output but don't damage components)

The next thing is that the balloon tools only act in one direction, where the remaining tools act in two directions. Kerosene/moonshine works forward and backwards; where phoenix claw works both left and right. Hydrogen only benefits the up direction, and chute vent only works in the down direction.

Finally we come to the sheer amount of damage.
Hydrogen does 6.25% of the balloon hp per second of use (for a minimum of 18.75%; or 225 total damage)
Chute vent does 5.41%, for a minimum of 16.25% (or 195 total damage)

Where kerosene is only 1.9%/3.33% (Heavy/Light), Moonshine is 5.7%/10%, and phoenix claw is 2.48%/4.33%
With each of them only lasting as long as you have it active (have a minimum damage of 10, 30, and 13 respectively)

It should be noted that as components become damage, their function is reduced. This can be seen with damaged engines, guns, and balloons. The more damage, the more performance suffers. And this isn't even bringing up the added ignition chance on the balloon for hydrogen.



Finally getting to the point, I feel that that the balloon tools should be adjusted more in line with the other tools listed here. I use these tools often, but don't enjoy being held back by the side effects. They're extremely detrimental, and don't provide all that much of an advantage. The balloon gets damaged a lot, especially if you keep it active for more than a second, and since it remains active, it becomes very difficult to get the precision you can with other tools.

Sometimes I shoot upwards to avoid damage or get into position to attack, only to find my enemy descending. I can't give chase because the helium makes it difficult to return to descending. If I activate chute vent right after, the damage piles up aggressively and the tools counteract each other. Then there are the times you start up with chute vent, but have to continue using it for 3 seconds while your balloon is being damaged, hurtling towards the ground.

Comparatively I can use moonshine or kerosene to get my ship into position/out of the line of fire, and can get it exactly right. Even if I'm about to overshoot my mark, I can just change directions using the same tool.


Ultimately, I would like to see the hydrogen and chute vent changed. Preferably removing the continued activation, and reducing the damage just a smidgen (maybe 50-55 dmg/s? ; as well as having the ignition chance removed completely, because that feels a bit like overkill. Right now they do server a role, but I really would like to see more of an up and down game in guns of icarus online; instead of reserving those tools for emergencies only.

Thoughts? 

[Dutch Vanya]

I agree they do too much damage to the balloon, you can't really use them unless you have full balloon health, or if it's an emergency. The continued activation does make them feel less precise than the other tools, which should be changed as well.
I definitely think that more common use of these items will make for much more interesting battles. Right now you only see the most experienced captains use these items effectively. If they were less harmful to your balloon there would be a lot more possibilities for vertical movement in a fight.

[Crafeksterty]

I agree with you 100%, all the way, 3 thumbs up, 10/10, 5 stars, and other point system to the max.


But i feel like things are the other way around.

Pheonix claw does not give enough punishment. (Cause i think it is OP actually, i never fly a ship xcept for the squid without it)
Kyrosine does not give enough punishment.

Moonshine in my eyes is actualy just enough or balanced to what it does.

Drogue chute does not benefitt enough
Impact bumbers dont benefitt enough

etc etc.

Less damage dealt to the baloons i agree with, but ide still focus mostly on the other tools first.

Moonshine, vent and hydro to me are the most ship changing tools.
While pheonix claw, drogue and impact dont really make your ship all that different.

You will still fall quite fast with drogue chute. Impact bumbers dont help much. A Combination of drogue and impact saves your life, but how else can you benefitt from it really?

Then there is pheonix claw that almost in default every ship uses.

[Thomas]

I can certainly see it going the other way as well. Almost every pilot carries around kerosene and phoenix claw (although there are some who swap out for moonshine).

Drogue chute is interesting, as it doesn't slow your descent, but your acceleration (at least as far as I'm aware.) It makes it harder to fall, but once you're already at a decent falling speed, it's not going to help much. On the other hand, if you pop it early, it can make a big difference.

Bumpers have pretty much gone the way of the dodo. The only time I use them is when there's going to be mines, and I'm fairly certain that it doesn't affect mine damage. I just like to pretend it does. (Other times is when I'm on a galleon and I know ships are going to foolishly ram into me). For the most part, players turn to kerosene when they plan on impacting other ships or even being impacted.

Tar barrel is in a class all it's own, and I think it's pretty fine as is.


I'm just about constantly using phoenix claw or kerosene myself. I use them to turn fast, to stop turning, to accelerate suddenly, to brake, to ram, to avoid rotating wildly after being rammed, to drift around a corner, to stop drifting, etc etc. And yet my engineers do such a good job at keeping the engines going. I touch a balloon item and things get messy; especially when I try to use them one after the other, or need to rise/fall large distances rapidly. You generally can't even consider touching a balloon item in combat, while you'd be absolutely silly -not- to use an engine item in the same situation.

[Wundsalz]

I think Hydro is balanced quite fine. Sure it wrecks the balloon but I think that's okay as it's an exceptional steering tool. If you can use it however it's really good for escaping an otherwise certain death or making a quick kill with a surprise attack.
Chute Vent could use a little love as it's currently quite benefitial to stay on top of your foes rather than getting below them. Making it a bit less balloon hungry might be a good step.
Regarding the Drogue Chute I think it's just fine. It's a situational pick but if I face a carronade heavy loadout I really like it.
Shine is fine.
Kersosine is fine. A minor nerf wouldn't harm though.
Regarding bumpers: I think these are underestimated quite a bit by most pilots. They do make a difference. I occasionally use them on classical ram-bait ships or on ramming ships. That beeing said bumpers are rarely a primary pick for me. A buff of the bumpers (maybe a 33% impact dmg reduction?!) might help to raise the popularity of this tool.
The phoenix claw is overpowered and a certain pick on almost every single ship I fly. I'd like to see its behaviour to be altered to be more intense but less forgiving - similar too moonshine. Even less angular drag but intense damage for the engines (~30-40dps). Currently I tend to overuse it quite a bit and occasionally observe myself to activate it in situations where it's not really needed.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

For some reason wenever i use hydro or chute went even as little as 3 seconds I lose 80-100% baloon strength.

I don't think Phoenix claw should be nerfed (unless you nery literaly every other mobility tool) - last time it was nerfed only 1% of people used it, becouse Kerosine was that much better. I think either Baloon toold be made less punishing or more powerfull.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

IMO, Hydro and Chute should be returned back to their original functionality. Or at the very least, the weight of the ship should not also affect the amount of dmg being done to the balloon. If you run the numbers with the original HP of the balloons you'll see that its doing too much dmg.

Also engines should get buffed all around. Engine tools tear them up far too quickly with the exception of Kerosene. Some ships don't even really benefit from the speed increase, which shouldn't be. This is due to their engines not being strong enough to handle the vessel. Weight got adjusted but the engines didn't.

Currently have 3 ships that are almost identical in speed when in the past there was a clear difference. One would always outrun the other 2, and another would always outrun the next but not be as fast as the first. You would use the engine tools to level the playing field and allow the two slower ships to be able to catch up to the fastest.

Gotta stop nerfing everything and just start buffing to balance. Try it, people might just like it instead of the game feeling like a bunch of 80yr olds playing wheel chair soccer.

[Puppy Fur]

I kinda think they are fine? The main reason being if they were any more I think it'd be pretty crazy watching ships go up and down that fast all the time. Would make the game a bit silly. Right now you can use hydro then use it again after a little time has passed. Being able to use it more? Seems a little to much to me.

[Cheesy Crackers]

Random question, What's the longitudinal drag exactly? Never really understood it. If I'm understanding the word properly it would be less forward/backwards drag on the ship as opposed to the angular drag?

[Skrimskraw]

i cant remember if it was the tools or the ships that was changed.

back in the day pyramidions were very mobile and could uppercut with hydrogen with absolutely no significant damage.

the damage might be too much, but it certainly saves your poor spire and mobula. high risk high reward

[redria]

They are skill and finesse items. Only use them if you know you can use them safely or if it is a last ditch effort to get out of arcs and make repairs. Only use them as long as it takes to physically deactivate them again. Mine stays on probably about 1/4 of a second before I turn it off tops. I personally don't see much wrong with them at the moment.

I don't like that you can't go down when you have a damaged balloon, but that's a different discussion.

The way the game currently is, outside of harpoons, clicks really well in my head. It all feels very natural, and I think the game is in a pretty good place. I think Muse has the same feeling and won't be making any particularly large changes until the next ship or gun are released.

Sorry Gilder, but to me, we are flying airships with giant balloons, not jet fighters. You can only go so fast. The squid is a little weak right now, but I think the balance of the game feels very good right now.

[Sammy B. T.]

Y'all realize you just need to burst the tool and never just leave it on.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Sorry Gilder, but to me, we are flying airships with giant balloons, not jet fighters. You can only go so fast.

Y'all realize you just need to burst the tool and never just leave it on.

I'm pretty much just quoting to reinforce the fact that these tools aren't meant to be used all the time (couple exceptions of the ones that can be kept up like Kero). Air ships move slow, ugly, and strategically. You use the tools to get out of a bad situation, or put yourself into an advantageous one. Both Hydro and Chute currently do that in their respective ways.

Yes, they fixed ship mass awhile back so that it was working as intended. Looking back now, all the broken mass did was mess with ship balance. Pyras were doing crazy dances and uppercutting ships (all cool, but not intended). Going back to anything like it would be a mistake.

[The Sky Wolf]

I think Hydrogen's damage is actually currently under-powered; I mean look at what it did to the Hindenburg.

But really, it's made to be the perfect escape item, but only for when the poo hits the fan. Muse's idea was to use a small bursts of hydrogen just to get above enemy guns and jump out of heavy enemy fire up into a cloud or something to stall just long enough to patch up the hull slightly and take care of the balloon. If people could just suddenly launch up on top of people's balloon-blindspot/uppercut their hull-blindspot/ or escape very quickly without any serious drawbacks, then every brawl match would win with the guys holding the canister of hydrogen being the winner.

[redria]

I think Hydrogen's damage is actually currently under-powered; I mean look at what it did to the Hindenburg.

But really, it's made to be the perfect escape item, but only for when the poo hits the fan. Muse's idea was to use a small bursts of hydrogen just to get above enemy guns and jump out of heavy enemy fire up into a cloud or something to stall just long enough to patch up the hull slightly and take care of the balloon. If people could just suddenly launch up on top of people's balloon-blindspot/uppercut their hull-blindspot/ or escape very quickly without any serious drawbacks, then every brawl match would win with the guys holding the canister of hydrogen being the winner.

As it is, using hydrogen will let you take over almost any 1v1 fight if they don't have a balloon popping weapon, or hydrogen of their own. Or if they are a squid. It is usually a lot easier to attack down on somebody and keep them in check than it is to try to maneuver about and attack up at somebody.