Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Spud Nick on October 03, 2013, 11:05:39 am
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Reduce the reload time and increase the aoe of its shatter damage. Too much of a buff or not enough? Your thoughts below.....
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Too much. If anything, id say a slight bump to aoe. That said, I'm interested to see why people think this gun is less than useful as I use them to good effect on plenty of occasions.
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Probably because sometimes the hawacha lolols itself to victory, and other times it does like... zero damage to anything (though this has a lot to do with who's firing using what ammo from what angle). Too much variation is effectiveness from one clip unload to another.
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Too much variation is effectiveness from one clip unload to another.
This.
Unreliability is what kills it for me most of the time. Especially on a Goldfish, when even the slightest twerk can mess up an entire clip, this gun needs to be muct more reliable than it is right now.
Decrease in reload is a bit too much of a buff, but at least make those reloads count more and be more reliable, I would suggest a slight decrease in spread as well to increase the effective range of which Burst rounds can be used on this gun.
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i cannot for the life of me fire this weapon on a galleon, the sideways movement added with forward momentum added with oppenents ship turning/moving added with jitter spread of the weapon. its too much xD the AoE is amazing with burst rounds in which i advise you guys to try. with the extra ammo and extra AoE you end up shattering almost all of the components :)
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You need to communicate heavily with your captain while firing it on a Galleon. I always tell my gunners to hold fire until I give the order, then I will reverse direction and hit the kero to come to a complete stop for enough time to empty the clip with scary accuracy. Since kero is still on, I end up going full speed in the other direction.
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Hwacha needs infinite ammo.
No, really, just add a few shots for each clip. Maybe two or three.
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Burst is almost no good unless you're uncomfortably close with the target. I suggest either reduction in spread OR (not both) larger aoe.
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More shots wont change the current problem. The problem is either zero spread at longrange which means nearly no disable if theres no component or the same high disable if they are extreme close.
U need a more reliable disable at longer to medium range.
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Someone cue one of the dozens of hwacha are op threads. Honestly the gun is fine, op for newbies and very difficult to get maximum usage out of by experienced players. Changing heavy clip from 100% spread reduction to 95% spread reduction would probably solve the problem since a lot of players (even experienced ones) struggle making adjustments with the shot during the volley to spread out the part destructs. The aoe is is fine if you ask me since anything within 7 meters of the shot will break which is an awful large distance if you think about it.
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With the exception of the carronade all Medium weapons are hard to use on a galleon when the pilot thinks their job is to orbit the battle field. I would like a decrease in the camera shake, it makes it hard to walk a manticore stream over an enemy ship. That is one of the reasons heavy clip manticores only taking out one or two weapons. After the first few rockets go out it is hard to know where the rest will go.
Of course once I start shooting point blanking with burst rounds it becomes less of an issue. I like the Manticore because it is both a high skill and low skill weapon. Low skill users can still make use of it where as high skill users can accomplish very impressive things.
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The aoe is is fine if you ask me since anything within 7 meters of the shot will break which is an awful large distance if you think about it.
Are we playing the same game? Since when are the Galleon's 2 heavy guns further away than 7 meters that a barrage that hits one of them doesn't disable the other one as well? Cause that never happened. So it's either not 7 meters, or I'm crazy.
The AoE is much smaller than you think, especially when there is no spread and you can't realy lead your shots properly while firing due to the shake, twitchy mouse movement is also mostly unreliable when firing a volley of rockets and risks messing up the rest of it.
Long range volleys require too much concetration and precision for a multi-warhead weapon. Old Heavy clip spread was much better. 95% will still pretty much make all shots end up in the same spot with sub-atomic space difference between shots.
I still think it's an issue with the gun and not Heavy clip, it's underwhelming for the most part and the long reload time doesn't seem to pay of. Too much risk for not as much of a reward, considering enemy guns will be up long before you can fire again.
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Rubbish, if anything this gun is still overpowered, ya'll just gotta learn how to shoot.
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This kind of comment incites anger and flame GeoRmr. Please provide a more sensible comment than "you don't know how to shoot."
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This kind of comment incites anger and flame GeoRmr. Please provide a more sensible comment than "you don't know how to shoot."
Salute to you sir
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Rubbish, if anything this gun is still overpowered, ya'll just gotta learn how to shoot.
Considering how easily its shots get messed up, the lower total ammount of shots on long range, the natural difficulty of leading multiple rapid firing projectiles AND the fact that if you miss a volley you are screwed for the next 14 seconds, I'd say it's completely underwhelming in mid range and only realy performs up in your face with Burst rounds.
Also as others have mentioned, be more constructive.
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This kind of comment incites anger and flame GeoRmr. Please provide a more sensible comment than "you don't know how to shoot."
Salute to you sir
Wow, I never knew that this community was so hypersensitive, are you guys serious? If my post offends people so much, THEN GOOD, the people offended by it are those I would actively seek to offend. There is really no need to be so butt-hurt about such a blatantly indirect and non-serious comment.
Edit: On reconsideration, I have found that your post, Nidh, has incited an unreasonable amount of anger in myself, indeed what I believe is a far greater amount than any I may have caused to the random lurking reader of my post.
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Not trying to point fingers buuuuuuuut xD
ya'll just gotta learn how to shoot.
Who are you quoting? I never said: "you don't know how to shoot."
while reading it, i imagine it in a texan accent. Some may take it as an insult that they can't perform
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Its y'all by the way. Y'all means "you all." Ya'll means "ya will"
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Not trying to point fingers buuuuuuuut xD
ya'll just gotta learn how to shoot.
Who are you quoting? I never said: "you don't know how to shoot."
while reading it, i imagine it in a texan accent. Some may take it as an insult that they can't perform
Exactly Gambrill, my gunner role-play comes from Texas.
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Let's all be nice, guys. Keep the discussion friendly.
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Hwacha seems fine to me. A sweep with heavy across the Junker takes out that side's guns and sometimes the engine for me. I think people are upset that it's so hard to take out the guns of a Pyra. Hwacha with heavy clip seems underpowered, burst seems overpowered. To me, this just gives gunners more purpose.
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For future reference, emotes can greatly influence the way a post may be read, such as xD or :P to imply a non-serious or joking attitude. Your comment was taken by myself to be derogatory and insulting to my own and my gunner's skill. I HATE when people assume that I just suck. I was incensed to the point of outright berating you and hating on you but I held my tongue. I do not wish to associate myself with anyone who would actively seek to offend anyone. Sorry for going off-topic, but I felt the need to defend myself.
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Hwacha seems fine to me. A sweep with heavy across the Junker takes out that side's guns and sometimes the engine for me. I think people are upset that it's so hard to take out the guns of a Pyra. Hwacha with heavy clip seems underpowered, burst seems overpowered. To me, this just gives gunners more purpose.
What I want is this 14 seconds reload time to be worth it if I hit the damn ship, it's not only the Pyra, it's the Galleon as well and many other ships, Heavy clip gives you accuracy but takes away everything that actually makes this gun good and that's mass disable. Well, you can't mass disable unless your shots have some spread to them or just make a bigger explosion, the Junker is an exception to the rule simply enough of how close the components are to each other on that ship so hitting one spot will net you many disables.
I've had volleys hit the broadside of the Galleon and take out only one gun, that's horrible when I have to wait an other 14 seconds to get an other volley off, so it's not only missing that you have to be afraid of, but also having pin point accuracy while spreading the shots yourself a bit in order to get the best out of it. Isn't that a bit on the extreme side of things? I mean seriously, Heavy clip on this gun makes me wanna pull my hair.
I gotta give it to you though, the Pyramidion's guns have to be the most annoying thing ever to disable with this gun.
Anyway, my point still stands, this gun is way too unreliable to use on a Goldfish, why should I take this over an LJ or a Carronade? Because at least I know that when the LJ/Carro hits, it will do its job, the Hwacha hits and still doesn't do its job many a time.
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The aoe is is fine if you ask me since anything within 7 meters of the shot will break which is an awful large distance if you think about it.
Are we playing the same game? Since when are the Galleon's 2 heavy guns further away than 7 meters that a barrage that hits one of them doesn't disable the other one as well? Cause that never happened. So it's either not 7 meters, or I'm crazy.
The AoE is much smaller than you think, especially when there is no spread and you can't realy lead your shots properly while firing due to the shake, twitchy mouse movement is also mostly unreliable when firing a volley of rockets and risks messing up the rest of it.
Long range volleys require too much concetration and precision for a multi-warhead weapon. Old Heavy clip spread was much better. 95% will still pretty much make all shots end up in the same spot with sub-atomic space difference between shots.
I still think it's an issue with the gun and not Heavy clip, it's underwhelming for the most part and the long reload time doesn't seem to pay of. Too much risk for not as much of a reward, considering enemy guns will be up long before you can fire again.
7 Meter (23 foot) AOE fact. Hitting a shot within 7 meters will damage a heavy gun, it takes 5 rockets to destroy a heavy weapon and a hwacha with heavy clip has 15 shots.
I understand that this is an emotional topic but at the end of the day this is an issue with the accuracy of the shooter not the aoe of the weapon. The galleon's weapons are indeed closer than 7 meters apart and it's likely the shooter shot to the side of a weapon rather than directly between them. The trigger need not be held down for long range shots and hitting out the guns of a galleon shouldn't be as simple as hitting the broadside of a barn. Aiming should be required.
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Oh and one more thing, there was a time when the hwacha had a larger aoe where burst round hits on a ship would destroy everything and was kind of a disaster and quickly nerfed within 2 weeks of the change.
Making the aoe too large will certainly overpower the weapon since currently burst rounds have almost an 11 meter aoe. If this were increased much more a burst barrage into anywhere at all into the ship would break everything which is far from balanced. The aoe is not the issue, the difficulty in aiming it is.
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I just thought that the hwacha should get the same love the carronade got.
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Does anyone else keep reading "Hwacha Twerk" like I keep on doing?
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I don't gun much these days unfortunately but when I do, and I get a chance to use the Hwacha, I don't have much trouble hitting with it. The heavy clip reduces spread, sure, but a little wiggle while you're shooting creates spread which is what I try and do to scatter the shatter damage if an enemy is at a decent distance. As I close I switch to burst. I don't know, for some reason I can read the vector of Hwacha fire better than I can most weapons. I think it's because it doesn't have much drop, if any, and the tracers are highly visible. For me it's one of the easier and more satisfying guns to shoot with not just because of the aforementioned things but also because you get 20 rockets, an incredible rate of fire, lionhead freakin' barrels, awesome reload sounds and animations and that immense spectacle of seeing a full volley slamming into an enemy ship. As a pilot being on the receiving end of a volley it only ever seems to take a few hits to break one or two components. A full volley does a good job of disabling almost everything leaving us sitting ducks. For me, the Hwacha's fine.
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Oh and one more thing, there was a time when the hwacha had a larger aoe where burst round hits on a ship would destroy everything and was kind of a disaster and quickly nerfed within 2 weeks of the change.
Making the aoe too large will certainly overpower the weapon since currently burst rounds have almost an 11 meter aoe. If this were increased much more a burst barrage into anywhere at all into the ship would break everything which is far from balanced. The aoe is not the issue, the difficulty in aiming it is.
7*1,5=11,5
More than 11m AoE if 7 is actual standard radius.
Still 7m AoE, really? Source please.
To the general discussion: It's not hard at all to mass disable on medium distances with Heavy clip and on short with Burst (there, didn't say you all complaining just suck at shooting). The gun sure as hell is not intended for long range disables so I don't see any problem with either the AoE or the reload time. In fact, I love the reload time just the way it is now because it allows for double hwacha galleon side be manned by a single gunner without loosing any reload or chance to switch ammo.
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7*1,5=11,5
You mean 7*1.5=10.5 (so as Smollett said, almost 11 metres).
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7 Meter (23 foot) AOE fact. Hitting a shot within 7 meters will damage a heavy gun, it takes 5 rockets to destroy a heavy weapon and a hwacha with heavy clip has 15 shots.
I understand that this is an emotional topic but at the end of the day this is an issue with the accuracy of the shooter not the aoe of the weapon. The galleon's weapons are indeed closer than 7 meters apart and it's likely the shooter shot to the side of a weapon rather than directly between them. The trigger need not be held down for long range shots and hitting out the guns of a galleon shouldn't be as simple as hitting the broadside of a barn. Aiming should be required.
Hitting the side of the gun should still net a disable on both heavy guns, if the radius is indeed 7 meters, there is no way one heavy gun is wider than 7 meters not do the two heavy guns have more of a meter distance between them, which is why I don't realy see this 7 meter radius you speak of.
I'm not asking for an increase in AoE per se, I am asking that this weapon be made more reliable so I don't end up wasting 14 seconds of reload for almost nothing in return, I think that's a reasonable argument. The risk to use this weapon is currently too high with not much in return in most cases unless you're a monster with it OR you're face-hugging them and using Burst.
My main question was, why should I risk bringing this on a Goldfish when it's my only main gun and it has a severe 14 seconds cooldown and is not realy THAT reliable, cause as far as I know, unless you're damn good with the gun, long range shots are impossible, not only do I have to except my gunner to hit, but to hit correctly as well. That's my concern, why me as a pilot, should take this gun over anything else more reliable?
And my suggestion was mainly giving back some spread to Heavy Clip, despite the fact that I think the gun has problems of its own. If Heavy wasn't dead accurate and only gave an 85% spread reduction, it would make the gun a bit more reliable at range. Second suggestion was to decrease the over all spread of the gun a bit so the effective range of Burst rounds is increased and to be honest, I don't realy mind this, but I generaly believe that the more guns that don't completely rely on Heavy for anything other than face-hugging situations (150-100 meters), the better the game becomes.
Also just as a reminder, I don't want to buff the Hwacha, just make it more reliable to use so I don't get those flip-flop shots that Imagine talked about in an earlier post, some shots net amazing disables, while others that are still spot on, do absolutely nothing or only disable 1 or 2 things at most (and before you assume that most parts were destroyed, that was not the case)
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I find it strange that this gun needs heavy clip ammo in order for it to hit at long range. I can't think of any other long range gun that needs to use one type of ammo for it to be effective at range.
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I think it's because the hwacha wasn't really designed to do so in the first place. If heavy clip gave you 100% efficiency out of the gun at the range it lets you hit, id say that was OP.
No offence to you Echo, but this is why I find it hard to sympathize with hwacha changes to make it better at range. I don't think it should be any more effective than it is now when using heavy to hit at ranges any other ammo type simply would fail to allow.
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I think it's because the hwacha wasn't really designed to do so in the first place. If heavy clip gave you 100% efficiency out of the gun at the range it lets you hit, id say that was OP.
No offence to you Echo, but this is why I find it hard to sympathize with hwacha changes to make it better at range. I don't think it should be any more effective than it is now when using heavy to hit at ranges any other ammo type simply would fail to allow.
The thing is, Heavy's puspose is just that, making an inaccurate weapon effective at range and it works exactly like this for any other gun that utilizes except the Hwacha. Carronades don't care about spread, Gatling doesn't care either, these are guns that target single components per shot, the Hwacha is probably the only one that gets a double downside from Heavy clip from both losing 5 rockets and having absolutely no spread to its shots to hit more components per volley withouth taking a year to empy the clip by burst firing.
Heavy Clip is a double edged sword for the Hwacha while while not having the same apply for other guns that utilize it is where I'm getting at. I personaly believe it shouldn't be like this, hence why I want some spread back, I don't get why it's so hard to agree with something like this, it's clear, obvious and the only counter argument anyone has managed to come up so far is that it's a matter of my or anyone's gunner being bad, which is very undermining to the person that actually fired and gun and actully HIT his/her volleys only to net a single disable.
Don't go around calling people bad shots when it's the design that's flawed, we might not all be gods of the Hwacha, but if everyone has to be considered something like this to be allowed to properly disable at least semi-consistently with this gun, then I wonder if this gun is actually worth general usage.
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The thing is, Heavy's puspose is just that, making an inaccurate weapon effective at range and it works exactly like this for any other gun that utilizes except the Hwacha. Carronades don't care about spread, Gatling doesn't care either, these are guns that target single components per shot, the Hwacha is probably the only one that gets a double downside from Heavy clip from both losing 5 rockets and having absolutely no spread to its shots to hit more components per volley withouth taking a year to empy the clip by burst firing.
You lose 5 rockets to gain the ability to hit something at its maximum range. It then gives you perfect (in the game's logic) accuracy in order to land those shots. If I was to disable one gun at maximum range that could also hit me but now cant due to my shot, I've been successful. This is my perspective for long range hwacha fighting.
Heavy Clip is a double edged sword for the Hwacha while while not having the same apply for other guns that utilize it is where I'm getting at. I personaly believe it shouldn't be like this, hence why I want some spread back, I don't get why it's so hard to agree with something like this, it's clear, obvious and the only counter argument anyone has managed to come up so far is that it's a matter of my or anyone's gunner being bad, which is very undermining to the person that actually fired and gun and actully HIT his/her volleys only to net a single disable.
While you may personally see it that way, I, and im assuming others, do not and this is why we have this debate. I see it gaining the same pro/con as other guns that utilize heavy to achieve something. In the case of hwacha, you lose 5 rockets, thus less disable power and damage, but gain the ability to shoot someone, and still disable something, at its maximum range. Its a hwacha's lesmok in essence.
Don't go around calling people bad shots when it's the design that's flawed, we might not all be gods of the Hwacha, but if everyone has to be considered something like this to be allowed to properly disable at least semi-consistently with this gun, then I wonder if this gun is actually worth general usage.
Im not sure if this was targeted at me or not, but I never called you or your gunners bad shots. You are adamant in your belief that the gun is flawed, when others simply don't think so and cant really counter you without coming across at "you need to shoot it differently."
My short answer is that I will always fail to grasp your concept of adding spread to get more accurate. I say it in the nicest tone I can on the internet.
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I don't see why you can't spread your shots around manually if you've got heavy clip loaded though. You can't tighten your shots up without heavy clip but you can totally loosen them up with heavy clip. You don't have to fire a salvo into one localised spot. That's like complaining that greased rounds fire too quickly when you can always ease off on the trigger. Spread your shots around focusing on different components. How far away are you talking here Echoez because I totally appreciate this being difficult at extreme distances but the Hwacha doesn't seem cut out for that kind of range. It can handle long ranges, sure, but not optimally which makes sense to me given the LJ and Flak's effective ranges.
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There's no longer accurate publicly available data that lists the correct hwacha aoe, so you'll have to trust me that it's 7 meters; but I can absolutely guarantee that it is.
There are also many reasons that a hwacha barrage could take out one gun on the side of the galleon and not the other; ie he nailed only 5 shots on gun but one gunner repaired mid volley, he nailed 4 shots on gun but pulled the rest way to the side etc etc
I agree unless you're a very good hwacha gunner max range shots are difficult to achieve full disables with; when I take a hwacha fish in pub matches or even when I take a hwacha in competitive play I'll often ask my gunners to hold fire until I say so. This way I can achieve the optimal range for a heavy clip hwacha based on my quary as well as stabilize the ship so my gunners shots predictably fall where they aim.
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Does anyone else keep reading "Hwacha Twerk" like I keep on doing?
Thanks Sammy, now I have the mental picture of a large black woman shaking her butt while standing on the front gun of my goldfish stuck in my head. In combination with Lord Dick Tim's "Sensual Whale Noises" I am going to need some therapy.
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More spread on heavy clip won't make it more accurate, just more forgiving. Also the amount of screen shake makes it even harder to aim effectively, you'd need to move it around by 5~ pixels which is pretty hard to keep under control. If the hwacha wasn't meant to use heavy clip and disable at mid-longe range, why does it have such a ridiculously long shell life? It SHOULD out class the Artemis, right?
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I don't shoot often, so I'll have to take your word the screen shake is high. If so, I can't see lowering it being an issue.
Comparing the hwacha to an artemis is....well frankly I cant do it. They disable in two very opposite ways.
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Don't go around calling people bad shots when it's the design that's flawed, we might not all be gods of the Hwacha, but if everyone has to be considered something like this to be allowed to properly disable at least semi-consistently with this gun, then I wonder if this gun is actually worth general usage.
Im not sure if this was targeted at me or not, but I never called you or your gunners bad shots. You are adamant in your belief that the gun is flawed, when others simply don't think so and cant really counter you without coming across at "you need to shoot it differently."
My short answer is that I will always fail to grasp your concept of adding spread to get more accurate. I say it in the nicest tone I can on the internet.
No no that was not aimmed at you personaly, my mistake there, should have pointed it out. ^^
The concept is relatively simple.. well in my head at least, when you have a gun that needs to hit multiple targets, it's only natural you don't want all of your rounds to go into the same place unless they have a large enough AoE to destroy all targets by just hitting a single place, but since having a gigantic AoE at that range would be, quite frankly, ridiculous, I want to have some spread back in order for the gun to be more effective.
It used to be like this in 1.2, I don't see why it shouldn't be the same now as well, the gun was fine and balanced just like this.
There's no longer accurate publicly available data that lists the correct hwacha aoe, so you'll have to trust me that it's 7 meters; but I can absolutely guarantee that it is.
There are also many reasons that a hwacha barrage could take out one gun on the side of the galleon and not the other; ie he nailed only 5 shots on gun but one gunner repaired mid volley, he nailed 4 shots on gun but pulled the rest way to the side etc etc
I agree unless you're a very good hwacha gunner max range shots are difficult to achieve full disables with; when I take a hwacha fish in pub matches or even when I take a hwacha in competitive play I'll often ask my gunners to hold fire until I say so. This way I can achieve the optimal range for a heavy clip hwacha based on my quary as well as stabilize the ship so my gunners shots predictably fall where they aim.
If they realy are 7 meters long then I suspect some hitbox madness was up to something then, I still find it hard to believe after playing with it lately, but this is exactly the unreliability that I'm talking about, it's already very hard to hit at max range.
Zill, you said that Heavy clip's up/downs are good but I'll have to disagree, this gun along with many other guns in this game have an indicated range that is much, MUCH longer than their 'real' effective range without Heavy Clip (Which for most inaccurate guns is under 200 or 300 meters), I find this is flawed by design, I would much much more prefer my gun be accurate at it's max range anyway so I can play with other ammo types than being forced to use one just so I can hit a bloody thing and then have those max ranges adjusted accordingly.
To me, when the gun's indicated range is 1200 or so meters, I should have the power to use the gun at to at least 100-75% power output, especially considering how risky this particular gun is.
More spread on heavy clip won't make it more accurate, just more forgiving. Also the amount of screen shake makes it even harder to aim effectively, you'd need to move it around by 5~ pixels which is pretty hard to keep under control. If the hwacha wasn't meant to use heavy clip and disable at mid-longe range, why does it have such a ridiculously long shell life? It SHOULD out class the Artemis, right?
And Nidh actually ninja's me while I was writing my post.
Yes, making this gun more forgiving is what I want anyway, not to boost its efficiency, cause it has efficiency, but it is overshadowed by the strict unforgiveness of the gun, aka, it's not as reliable if it's not as forgiving.
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Probably shouldn't be fueling this flame but I really agree with what Zill was saying earlier and I actually feel heavy clips tradeoffs and bonuses are well balanced with the hwacha now.
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I don't shoot often, so I'll have to take your word the screen shake is high. If so, I can't see lowering it being an issue.
Comparing the hwacha to an artemis is....well frankly I cant do it. They disable in two very opposite ways.
Err, the hwacha isn't the heavy version of the Artemis? They hit components and the components get destroyed... I don't see how they're any different, except maybe one can shoot more rockets at a time.
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The hwacha is for blanket firing though, not surgical shots like the artemis. It's a mass disabler.
I don't understand the reason for wanting more spread when you can spread shots yourself with heavy clip loaded. With heavy clip you control where your shots go, that's the point; you're not at the whim of random jitter over distance.
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Err, the hwacha isn't the heavy version of the Artemis? They hit components and the components get destroyed... I don't see how they're any different, except maybe one can shoot more rockets at a time.
Well let me put my perspective. Minus the fact one is light and one is medium :
Artemis : Low ammo, fast moving rockets aimed at precise points to disable them.
Hwacha : High ammo, slower rockets sprayed at the target for maximum disables.
If the Artemis had a medium equivalent, I wouldn't of made the hwacha to do it. I mean, it almost encompasses a banshee more. Maybe a strike between the two?
I guess my thing is that when you load heavy into an hwacha, it turns into a different gun. You go from spray and pray to calculated and precise shooting. I don't know why they give some guns much more range over their effective ones, but I never questioned it and honestly it does allow for things like this situation where a hwacha can still hit something at that range and not be utterly useless.
If you made it 100-75% at its max range, then ammo designed to increase the efficiency at those ranges is then useless. Id just take burst for the added ammo and higher likelihood of disables and call it a day.
We need to also track what we are debating here. Only the goldie, spire, and galleon can take the hwacha, and its use can vary greatly on each. I figure goldfish is the biggest debate since you are using it alone, yea?
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Well, we're really just asking if we can get a little of that "spray" back when using heavy clip. It wasn't a problem in 1.2 so I don't see why so many responses are opposed to it.
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The hwacha is for blanket firing though, not surgical shots like the artemis. It's a mass disabler.
I don't understand the reason for wanting more spread when you can spread shots yourself with heavy clip loaded. With heavy clip you control where your shots go, that's the point; you're not at the whim of random jitter over distance.
Good luck with that with the current screenshake, I think it's a bit too much to ask of the gunner when he has to lead multiple projectiles as well, what do I do? Track the target or spread my shots? A bit of random jitter to do aleviate some stress off of the gunner is actually more beneficial than you think it is.
Err, the hwacha isn't the heavy version of the Artemis? They hit components and the components get destroyed... I don't see how they're any different, except maybe one can shoot more rockets at a time.
Well let me put my perspective. Minus the fact one is light and one is medium :
Artemis : Low ammo, fast moving rockets aimed at precise points to disable them.
Hwacha : High ammo, slower rockets sprayed at the target for maximum disables.
If the Artemis had a medium equivalent, I wouldn't of made the hwacha to do it. I mean, it almost encompasses a banshee more. Maybe a strike between the two?
I guess my thing is that when you load heavy into an hwacha, it turns into a different gun. You go from spray and pray to calculated and precise shooting. I don't know why they give some guns much more range over their effective ones, but I never questioned it and honestly it does allow for things like this situation where a hwacha can still hit something at that range and not be utterly useless.
If you made it 100-75% at its max range, then ammo designed to increase the efficiency at those ranges is then useless. Id just take burst for the added ammo and higher likelihood of disables and call it a day.
We need to also track what we are debating here. Only the goldie, spire, and galleon can take the hwacha, and its use can vary greatly on each. I figure goldfish is the biggest debate since you are using it alone, yea?
When I said I expect it to work like this I also said that I excpected said indicated ranges to be changed as well, surely I don't want a Hwacha to work like it does with Burst at 1200 meters, but right now I don't get even half the efficiency of Burst rounds with many of the long range shots and it's not even all long range, the Hawcha can't even aim properly at a medium range target without Heavy clip, it's normal effective range is less than a third of the displayed one, which should not be the case IMO, I would prefer to have that 1200 meter range cut down to 2/3 than what it is now and make the gun efficient within the whole spectrum of that range rather than have a gun that goes from Viable to "You might hit, but even if you hit, results will vary greatly from 'okay' to 'shit' " that's my problem.
I use it on both the Goldfish and the Spire and the Galleon (whenever I fly it anyway)
Also I think the Hwacha can't be accurately be compared to either the Artemis or the Banshee, it's a gun of it's own league, I'd like to see a Heavy Missile artillery gun in the future though.
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I use it on both the Goldfish and the Spire and the Galleon (whenever I fly it anyway)
Well yea but I ask because on a goldie, im able to control the engage range much easier than a galleon, and only so much so over a spire.
Im beginning to see where you are coming from now. Heavy does have the advantage for a big portion of the hwacha's range until you hit mid range. Finding the spot where it's better to have more ammo (via burst) and miss a few to disable more over less ammo but more likely to hit is all opinionated. Id hate to see its rocket's range cut any though.
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I use it on both the Goldfish and the Spire and the Galleon (whenever I fly it anyway)
Well yea but I ask because on a goldie, im able to control the engage range much easier than a galleon, and only so much so over a spire.
Im beginning to see where you are coming from now. Heavy does have the advantage for a big portion of the hwacha's range until you hit mid range. Finding the spot where it's better to have more ammo (via burst) and miss a few to disable more over less ammo but more likely to hit is all opinionated. Id hate to see its rocket's range cut any though.
Cutting its range was just an example to make my point (not realy looking to do that), yes at the MAX range of this gun, Heavy clip is okay, but there is a realy wide spot of this range spectrum where neither Heavy or Burst works optimaly as you yourself stated and that's very detrimental to this gun I believe, when you start hitting mid ranges, Heavy is TOO accurate to be useful and Burst is still too inaccurate, this should be adressed as there is nothing to go inbetween which makes little to no sense for such a gun to have a range gap between two extremes.. makes it a bit too inconsistent, especially on slower ships as well.
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How can you make so many so long posts in so little time, do you have no life :-X
Does the screenshake even affect the point youre aiming at? I'm usually ignoring the shake and my heavy clip hwacha salvos land and draw a line where I want them to nevertheless....
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Im at work funnily enough. Slow day, lol.
Screen shake shouldn't. I think its psychological.
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Screen shake doesn't effect your shot, but trying to spread shots around manually with the amount of screen shake on the hwacha is like trying to shoot a sniper rifle at multiple targets during an earthquake.
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I have worked with some gunners who can rake pyramidion's entire gun deck with heavy clip Hwacha from medium range and knock out both guns, even with the screen shake. Since I captain and engine more than I gun I don't get to fire that weapon much, but when I do I find the screen shake makes it hard to walk the Hwacha volley across an enemy ship at medium range without missing a great number of shots. To me this is what separates the good gunners from the great ones. Lowering the screen shake would lower the skill level required to pull off feats of great gunnery. I am all for this because I really want to be in that group that can pull of feats of great gunnery.
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How can you make so many so long posts in so little time, do you have no life :-X
Does the screenshake even affect the point youre aiming at? I'm usually ignoring the shake and my heavy clip hwacha salvos land and draw a line where I want them to nevertheless....
I'm ill at home xD
No the shake itself doesn't but it makes it hard to see what you are aimming it, plus motion sickness for some :P
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The recent changes to the heavy carronade have made the hwacha less viable for the spire and the goldfish. I think that the heavy carronade is starting to overshadow the hwacha in terms of raw disabling power. What do you guys think about lowering the explosive damage in favor of a shorter reload time?
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What do you guys think about lowering the explosive damage in favor of a shorter reload time?
I thought about it, but the hwacha has enough of a hard time killing as it is. It needs a good punch when it gets that magical chance to hit bare hull.
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The recent changes to the heavy carronade have made the hwacha less viable for the spire and the goldfish. I think that the heavy carronade is starting to overshadow the hwacha in terms of raw disabling power. What do you guys think about lowering the explosive damage in favor of a shorter reload time?
Outside of troll builds, lolwut Carronade on a Spire?
Also they are used in very different ways, Hwacha can disable all components on your ship in one go while doing a considerable burst of armor damage and can also be used as a finisher. The carronade can kill your balloon in one go while adding pressure to armor as well and can 'selectively' destroy individual components, but takes time and it's also pretty bad at taking down perma-hull.
There is no overshadowing, they are guns that need to be used differently, the Carronade is a brawling gun while the Hwacha is a Close to Long range disabler-supporter, that range gap and unreliability is what needs fixing.
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k, everyone that is talking about buffing the hwacha, I challenge you all to spend some time on this gun and try some techniques mentioned in this thread.
I see a lot of people who typically pilot on this thread and a lot less who typically gun and I'm just starting to get the feeling that people are complaining about their gunners more than the gun.
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I think the pilot density is mostly because people who spend time on the forums engaging in weapon balance debates tend to be captains who are in charge of configuring their ships.
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I have had quite a few players join my Galleon crew, and instantly ask "Why so many hwachas? They are not very good. Can't you put X gun here?" I tell them we can change after the next match, and to follow my orders exactly. When the match is done, I ask what they want to change. Most simply say something like "I am fine with them where they are."
As I stated before, the Manticor is a heavy communications gun. If you don't have good communication, it is terrible.
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I've shot a hwacha before, and I talk to my crew thank you very much. I hate how this community keeps talking about people like Echoez and I like we are incompetent and don't even play this game. I ask for a small buff to make the hwacha more forgiving at longer ranges and accessible to people who aren't trained snipers. A lot of responses are saying this buff is unnecessary. Fine. But the buff I'm asking for is not a bad thing, and it's not going to break the game.
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I've shot a hwacha before, and I talk to my crew thank you very much. I hate how this community keeps talking about people like Echoez and I like we are incompetent and don't even play this game. I ask for a small buff to make the hwacha more forgiving at longer ranges and accessible to people who aren't trained snipers. A lot of responses are saying this buff is unnecessary. Fine. But the buff I'm asking for is not a bad thing, and it's not going to break the game.
Sorry if my previous post came off as an attack because it certainly wasn't intended as such.
I've noticed very similar problems with the gun when I fly in pub matches however when I'm shooting it myself or have trusted gunners I don't have any difficulty achieving significant disables with it at mid range and I've seen the best gunners make extraordinary full range disables in competition.
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Sorry if my previous post came off as an attack because it certainly wasn't intended as such.
I've noticed very similar problems with the gun when I fly in pub matches however when I'm shooting it myself or have trusted gunners I don't have any difficulty achieving significant disables with it at mid range and I've seen the best gunners make extraordinary full range disables in competition.
Since I was mentioned in Nidh's post I do feel like I have to reply, no offence taken, it's all good.
BUT!
I think that this is an issue that needs to be adressed a bit.
We all can agree that the Hwacha's accuracy is total bongers, realy bad. Because Heavy Clip is the only ammo type that affects a gun's spread, the Hwacha can only choose between Perfect and Crap accuracy, my problem main lies in the fact that 'Perfect' accuracy is only good at very long ranges of over 700 meters or so, anything closer and Heavy clip loses out a lot of its flair. Burst is still not in effective range since it has to deal with the crap effective range of the Hwacha that is mostly around 150-200 meters, just to be on the safe side. There is a massive range gap between those two extremes that leaves the weapon with no optimal ammo choice.
Now, old Heavy clip had this covered cause it didn't turn the weapon into a laser precision gun, by retaining some spread, the range gap was basically non existant, or handly noticable.
Can someone compesate for that? Yes, but not optimaly, since both the shake and the time it will take to empty the clip in multiple bursts have many downsides like longer cycle time which is very bad on a weapon with an already punishing reload time, also it gives the enemy more time between bursts to repair their guns in order to withstand more shots.
This is why I insist on getting some of the old spread Heavy Clip had (85% reduction instead of 100% or something). This will probably also help silencing some complaints about the carronades being too 'easy' to use as well since they won't be essentialy a lazer gun anymore.
I believe I'm being reasonable at least, I will bid everyone a goodnight at this point, see you all tomorrow good chaps.
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So, I gun a lot. It's kind of my thing. I'm not awful at it either. The Hwacha's not really my best gun (I'll blame it on my laptop seizing up due to the firing animation), but I do end up shooting it a lot. And I think what's happening here is kind of a clash of expectations for what the gun's role should be.
Long range Hwacha disables are hard. I haven't really noticed the screen shake people are mentioning, but walking your shots across the front of a pyra from a km out is very difficult. And I think it should be. Previously, long range disables with old heavy were fairly easy. The firing method for long range was almost exactly the same as short range, fire and forget. If you point it in the general area things will break. With new heavy LR hwacha is now a lot more difficult and requires more skill. It was certainly a nerf to the gun if you consider the gun's purpose to be long range disabler.
I've always thought of it as a mid to close range disabler. I'm of the school that switches to burst as quickly as possible. You'll miss more shots but usually break more things. I've never seriously considered it as a true long range weapon except in the hands of a skilled gunner. I'm still pretty poor at it, look to someone like Lambert if you want to learn it. However, the hwacha is a paragon of reliability once you close to mid range and load burst.
My Suggestions:
- Change the listed range. The 1200m max range technically makes it long range, but it really isn't.
- A slight buff to the shatter damage. It won't really be noticed at short range, but at long it'll be the difference between quite badly damaged and disabled.
TL;DR: I guess I consider long range hwacha hits a bonus that requires a bit of luck and a lot of practice. I am content with the mayhem and destruction it causes once you get into mid or close range. And I'm apparently either blind or way too focused since I've only noticed the shake if the pilot is full throttle.
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Keep in mind that some newbs tend to think the hwacha is OP. Probably means it's pretty balanced, at least i think so.
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U mean cause ppl overestimate what the hwacha does cause they dont understand all mechanics is a hint for a gun to be balanced? Sorry but that is just crap.
The hwacha is supposed to do extreme shatter dmg and be a good disabler.
The current problem is either a to high spread for anything thats not right in ur face so u dont get the disable u want. Or a spread of zero causing bullets to be in nearly the same spot which also leads to to few disable.
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My Suggestions:
- Change the listed range. The 1200m max range technically makes it long range, but it really isn't.
- A slight buff to the shatter damage. It won't really be noticed at short range, but at long it'll be the difference between quite badly damaged and disabled.
Nerfing it's actuall max range while giving it nothing in return is a no-no and the gun IS long range for as long as this same listed range remains, it doesn't matter what the default spread is, the gun IS long ranged, it has the range to be so please stop denying it. Again, my point does not lie in the absolute long ranges from above 700 meters, I'm starting to believe people realy don't read my posts lately.
Shatter damage buff won't do cause then everyone else will cry on how it's not more effective against armor, hull, balloon and who knows what else! because it does more damage right? (This realy makes me wish Muse would finally drop this flawed damage type system and just give each weapon their own damage values against specific components, would make everything so magically easier.)
So, I'm gonna point it out again, my problem with this gun lies into the fact that both of the viable ammo types for it currently only work effectively at their extremes, either too close and too far away, mid range is a PITA using Heavy with this gun, I don't know what you consider mid range but for me personaly that's over 450 meters at least and Burst is horribly ineffective to anything further away than 200 meters, but Heavy is also horribly ineffective to anything closer than 600-700 cause the spread is too low (note: non-existant).
I feel like the game cheats my gunners on that gun, not sure about you, but I can go any other gun and have all 3 ammo types be used for different purposes and ranges, the Hwacha only has 2 choices that matter, Heavy and Burst and NOTHING in between.
Keep in mind that some newbs tend to think the hwacha is OP. Probably means it's pretty balanced, at least i think so.
You know what else these people think is OP? The Carronade, but it realy isn't OP is it? When you realy think about and how many ways there are to counter it, it realy isn't.
Newbies think a lot of things are OP, period, doesn't make them balanced by any chance, they are just clueless as to the simplest ways of actually countering said weapons because they couldn't be arsed to do some reasing up on the game.
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[Way too long, did not read]
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Both heavy and burst work fine for me. Burst from very close to ~300m and Heavy on everything farer to disable entire pyras, junkers and half a galleon. The camera shake is a joke. Just learn to deal with it and move your mouse manually to draw the line you want. Your personal ineptitude to disable things with heavy clip is no reason to change anything. I know a lvl5 gunner who has no trouble doing it at all and everything you write seems more like a fixation on wanting the gun buffed than an actual issue.
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[Way too long, did not read]
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Both heavy and burst work fine for me. Burst from very close to ~300m and Heavy on everything farer to disable entire pyras, junkers and half a galleon. The camera shake is a joke. Just learn to deal with it and move your mouse manually to draw the line you want. Your personal ineptitude to disable things with heavy clip is no reason to change anything. I know a lvl5 gunner who has no trouble doing it at all and everything you write seems more like a fixation on wanting the gun buffed than an actual issue.
Thank you for trying your absolute best to sound as patronizing as possible.
I will not even try to reply with something constructive as your only argument is to 'Learn to play noob' and you also seem to have ignored everything in my post as you very comicaly present in your quote of my post.
Good day to you sir, I'm done discussing balance on this forum, have fun!
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[...]
I will not even try to reply with something constructive as your only argument is to 'Learn to play noob' [...]
In response to the only argument you ever brought was "the gun is too hard to shoot, make it easier".
Also I don't feel like reading your 100 line posts each and every time you put them especially since they always come down to the very same thing and all the "content" you add is just rephrasing what you said before already.
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In response to the only argument you ever brought was "the gun is too hard to shoot, make it easier".
Also I don't feel like reading your 100 line posts each and every time you put them especially since they always come down to the very same thing and all the "content" you add is just rephrasing what you said before already.
If you don't feel like reading then don't reply, it's that simple, because your reply here obviously shows you never actually read what I posted hence it's riddled of misconceptions. You are obviously not fit for such a discussion if you can't even be arsed to read other people's posts.
I didn't say the gun is too hard to shoot, I said it's too inconsistent and that there is no optimal ammo choice to use for it mid range, no matter what, Heavy Clip IS NOT an optimal ammo type for mid range because the perfect accuracy does more bad that good for your shots. I don't get why that's so HARD to grasp for you.
This is something that WASN'T a problem before, in fact, the gun worked as inteneded so I'm asking for it to be brought back because there was NO good reason to take it out in the first place.
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[...]
I didn't say the gun is too hard to shoot, I said it's too inconsistent and that there is no optimal ammo choice to use for it mid range, no matter what, Heavy Clip IS NOT an optimal ammo type for mid range because the perfect accuracy does more bad that good for your shots. I don't get why that's so HARD to grasp for you.
[...]
Because it is just not true.
Besides I read your first three posts entirely. Read them yourself again, you will notice there is not much difference in what they say. Your posts became longer and longer with less and less actual new ideas or arguments.
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Because it is just not true.
Besides I read your first three posts entirely. Read them yourself again, you will notice there is not much difference in what they say. Your posts became longer and longer with less and less actual new ideas or arguments.
Because there realy isn't much to say, just one idea, the only reason multiple posts were made is to further analise or present the same idea in a different way for others to better understand what I was trying convey. That's the whole purpose of this thread if you didn't notice.
In the meantime your posts displayed absolute disrespect for the people that have been supporting the idea, you come in here with an openly offensive post calling people out on their skill and making them look bad when in reality they aren't. So here, you added nothing to this conversation.
So to conclude this little derailment, I agree with you, don't change anything, leave everything as is, all is good. I will be arguing about it no more.
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Completely ignoring the flame war above me, I find that rapidly tap- firing bursts of two or three rockets at a time both increases spread with heavy and mid-range accuracy with anything else.
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Agreed with Churr. I fire the gun in bursts (not burst ammo) for long range shots; 2-3 to find the arc, 5-6 to hit the ship, last 5-6 to hit more accurately. The camera shake is why... For me anyways.
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Just a thought here, and I dunno how possible it'll be, but it may do something to alleviate the mid-range frustration while still requiring heavy rounds for long range. I could be wrong, of course, I'm just a newbie after all :)
Anyway, jitter is calculated on weapon firing at the moment. So, basically, the gun is fired in a random direction between 0 and maxjitter degrees from where you're aiming.
Rather than having the full jitter angle applied to the shot, why not fire all rockets at 0 degrees and have the jitter applied to the rocket randomly every second through the projectile's path?
So let's say maxjitter is 10 and maximum range takes 11 seconds to reach (It doesn't, I know, but it's demonstrational purposes).
Rocket leaves the gun perfectly on target.
After 1 second, the rocket alters direction between 0 and 1 degrees.
After 2 seconds, the rocket again alters direction, this time between 0 and 2 degrees.
And so on, until at 10 seconds it alters direction between 0 and 10 degrees and then detonates at 11 seconds.
So at short ranges the Hwacha's very accurate - the rockets haven't had time to start wandering off. At maximum range the rockets are pretty much spiralling in crazy directions and won't hit a damn thing. At mid range, the rockets are still pretty much in line but still with a reasonable, useable (without Heavy Rounds) spread.
And, y'know, if they leave smoke trails then it'd look cool to have crazy corkscrewing rockets going across the skies...
Just a thought on perhaps a new way to look at it sort of thing. :)
- Jon
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Hmn. don't know how that would pan out on the coding side, but I like the idea of myriad spiraling rocket trails.
I do however think that what people are talking about is the screen jitter when firing as opposed to the actual jitter of the projectiles.
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Truth be told, it seemed like there were a fair few different things folks were talking about; the extreme accuracy of Heavy Rounds, Screen shake when firing, and the ineffectiveness of the Hwacha at medium range.
I don't know about the coding side. It's easy enough to do, particularly in Unity, but I don't know about how much lag it may generate. Not much, I suspect, as the objects are already being tracked etc and altering their trajectory shouldn't be too problematic.
It was just a thought, anyhoo. I was trying to come up with something that was a falloff in accuracy rather than the current method.
In other words - Graph Time! (it's a lot like Hammer Time, it even has a similar dance and requires parachute pants.)
(http://tarnishedstudios.co.uk/randoms/screwy.jpg)
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Anything that makes the Hawacha more effective than it already is, is in my opinion as a Hawacha gunner unacceptable. It's already a great weapon in the right hands, and usable by those who don't quite understand it, tweaking it could imbalance it.
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That graph is upside down if I'm reading it correctly. Accuracy should decrease over distance, not increase.
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Accuracy 0 is perfect isnt it?
Additionally, make rockets last until they hit something. Imagine the joy when one of your lost rockets comes back home.
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That graph is upside down if I'm reading it correctly. Accuracy should decrease over distance, not increase.
I think the graph pretty much displays how useful perfect accuracy is over distance, not how accurate the gun is over distance. It backs up my earlier points pretty well.
Anything that makes the Hawacha more effective than it already is, is in my opinion as a Hawacha gunner unacceptable. It's already a great weapon in the right hands, and usable by those who don't quite understand it, tweaking it could imbalance it.
Not realy pointing any fingers at you or anyone but just to make sure my point is understood.
The Hwacha right now is an okay gun on a Galleon, kinda underwhelming on a Spire and pretty crap on a Goldfish after losing its previous 20 rockets with Heavy and acceptable spread it had before.
14 seconds of reload speak for themselves, there's nothing more to understand, nothing special about the gun, it shoots rockets and breaks stuff, don't make it seem complicated cause it realy isn't. Risk/Reward is screwed up with this gun, unless you are up against a Galleon where weapons actually take some time to be brought back up, period.
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Echoez, I'm sorry but to call the Hawacha useless (crap) on a Goldfish is so far off base it almost completely invalidates your argument.
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A single clip of burst can destroy every single component on nearly any ship. I was gunning a hwatchafish last night. In no way shape or form is it underpowered, never mind useless
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Its not underpowered but as a gun itself. Its just not useable on anything besides a galleon cause the reload is to long for a goldfish to stay on ur enemy. He will be able to rebuild the important parts before you can get ur next shots inside. And thats just not useful but he will get the time to kill you or stay long enough alive till he can kill you or his ally coming close.
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You need to make a swivel fish with chaingun on the side. First hwacha shot disables, chaingun breaks the armor, second hwacha shot kills.
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I think what echoez is trying to get at with hwacha fish (correct me if im wrong) is that the hwacha is mainly a disabler. (and not the kind that quickly runs them into the ground) and so you are left to constantly stare at the enemy until a few hundred rockets have been fired out enough to kill your opponent. all the while hoping they don't get back-up.
Obviously the ship taking the damage is going to be repairing the hull AND if they are co-ordinated will always focus their armour over an engine meaning if a gattling has taken the hull down (depending on the ship and amount of players nearby, Possibly the pilot and an engie, if not more, could fix it up in time.)
Whereas if a galleon were to implement it they could apply a carronade and improve the disable tremendously or to have TWO firing would be enough to cause a big enough dent to be worried about only. And obviously the spire having two light guns able to point forward is probably deadly than the galleon :P
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If you are only using the Hawacha on a Hawacha fish, then you are doing something very wrong when piloting it...
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Rimmer i've seen it be done..... I've seen it D:
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If you are only using the Hawacha on a Hawacha fish, then you are doing something very wrong when piloting it...
Doesn't change the fact that your giant front gun will be reloading for 14 seconds after firing and on a Goldfish, it's the only giant gun. I didn't say it's utterly useless, don't put words in my mouth, I said, it is and feels pretty crap, it's not satisfying nor THAT rewarding, considering light guns will be up long before you will have reloaded, nothing stops the enemy from disabling the Hwacha while it's unusable due to reloads and if you load the wrong ammo due to gun downtime, god save you.
You would also have to be a realy horrible player to just use the Hwacha on a HwachaFish, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not the most optimal gun for it. Oh and inb4 someone jumps in and says that's because the Carronade is so OP hurr, no, it's just the Hwacha not being that optimal unless you are fighting a Galleon where the disable time is actually paid off properly and the Risk/Reward is better due the Galleon being such a massive target that it is (and maybe the occasional stupid Junker that won't move an inch higher to avoid litteraly all your rockets if you are firing Heavy at it, becuase obviously Junkers have no hitbox of which to speak of, lol)
I haven't seen a truly sucessful HwachaFish in a long while, too easy to avoid with vert tools and then the Goldfish has to deal with having no other frontal guns, there's many factors to piloting a Goldfish that I consider when saying this guns is suboptimal for it, I fly the freaking thing all the time.
Gatling is too slow to be paired with it, Goldfish can't just stand there and take shots while firing a gatling, so unless your gunner is a god that can fire the gat like a lazer on the enemy and not miss a shot while you manuver around them.. yeah. Carronades are an other viable combo, but short ranged and CAN actually be a pain to fire from the side of a fast moving ship like the Goldfish.
Anyway, I'm honestly not saying something new and I have given up on the thoughts of having the Hwacha even slightly to how it was on 1.2, not sure why I'm still arguing here :P
PS: Still waiting on a Heavy Flamethrower Muse, it better be a good one if it comes out, ever, we need more brawling Heavy weapons.
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I've been using a hwachafish with side carronades to great effect. The best of both disabling fishies that still has the capability to kill quickly.