Guns Of Icarus Online
Community => Community Events => Topic started by: N-Sunderland on July 21, 2013, 01:10:00 pm
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Ok, so this isn't official or anything (I don't participate in running the Cogs, after all), but I still wanted to hear other people's opinions.
In Community Chat yesterday an interesting question was brought up: if one or two maps were to be (hypothetically, as far as I know there are no plans to do this) removed from the rotation, which ones would you like to see gone, and why?
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I love Labyrinth, but it just sticks out because of it being CP when everything else is DM. It just doesn't seem fair to have two types of games.
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I agree. Labyrinth simply doesn't fit with the other maps. The only other map that I wouldn't mind seeing gone is Dunes, due to how heavily it favours snipers. I don't like Duel either, but it wouldn't be worth pulling it off.
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Where is the "None." option......
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You don't need to vote...
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Sorry for having an opinion that is different from yours.
If anything, I'd like to see more tournaments open up to cp, koth, crazy king matches. They open a new plethora of tactics that you won't find in a DM, and makes things more interesting.
You seem to have a personal vendetta against labyrinth though, which Im not sure why that is. Isn't the point of multiple maps to broaden the base level of tactics involved instead of shrinking that, and leaving us with less?
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Sorry for having an opinion that is different from yours.
I never said I had a problem with that. If you don't like the poll, don't vote in it. Simple as that. I'm not asking you not to state your opinion, which you can do without the poll.
If anything, I'd like to see more tournaments open up to cp, koth, crazy king matches. They open a new plethora of tactics that you won't find in a DM, and makes things more interesting.
Absolutely. I really, really want there to be a capture the point tournament. I... Actually love Scrap. Anglean and Refinery are also great. I'd really like to see what strategies people would come up with.
You seem to have a personal vendetta against labyrinth though, which Im not sure why that is. Isn't the point of multiple maps to broaden the base level of tactics involved instead of shrinking that, and leaving us with less?
I do! Thanks for noticing. One of my main reasons is that the first team to capture the point will almost always win. It's stupidly hard to take it away due to how quickly a killed ship can come back. It doesn't make for very good matches. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense to have a single CP map among several DM maps. It'd be better if there were several CP maps.
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I do! Thanks for noticing. One of my main reasons is that the first team to capture the point will almost always win. It's stupidly hard to take it away due to how quickly a killed ship can come back. It doesn't make for very good matches. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense to have a single CP map among several DM maps. It'd be better if there were several CP maps.
It is ridiculously hard to take the point from the other team, that is if their good enough, even if they aren't, just holding out while we pound at them can be enough to distract us from the point of the match.
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I never said I had a problem with that. If you don't like the poll, don't vote in it. Simple as that. I'm not asking you not to state your opinion, which you can do without the poll.
I took your post as hostile, so in that instance that's my mistake.
Clicking an option on a poll is much easier than making an argument against it. Point being, your poll will only show people who want maps gone, vs the number of people who think it's fine as is.
Absolutely. I really, really want there to be a capture the point tournament. I... Actually love Scrap. Anglean and Refinery are also great. I'd really like to see what strategies people would come up with.
Well we agree then, in a way. I really do like Scrap, and tell anyone who complains when it gets voted in to go jump into a sand storm. Issue there is 1. those are all 3v3 and 2. I'll touch on in the next segment here.
I do! Thanks for noticing. One of my main reasons is that the first team to capture the point will almost always win. It's stupidly hard to take it away due to how quickly a killed ship can come back. It doesn't make for very good matches. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense to have a single CP map among several DM maps. It'd be better if there were several CP maps.
First, I can see where you come from with a killed ship coming back too fast to block the point again, which might just mean tweaking the capture rate on labyrinth. I still don't think it is impossible. Judging it based on 2-3 matches in cog's history isnt too fair, though i've only watched the last one from this weekend. I don't think they lost because it was CP.
I've always considered the single CP argument weak. But, it just shows that we need more 2v2 CP maps, either new or converted.
Finally, is that tournaments shouldn't always try to separate CP from DM. A 3v3 tourney featuring all of the maps in a more-than-one-day format would be extremely fun to participate in.
I personally don't mind Labyrinth in the cog rotation, of which I may be a minority. Just getting it out there.
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Clicking an option on a poll is much easier than making an argument against it. Point being, your poll will only show people who want maps gone, vs the number of people who think it's fine as is.
I suppose that's true. I'll add an option for that.
But, it just shows that we need more 2v2 CP maps, either new or converted.
Finally, is that tournaments shouldn't always try to separate CP from DM. A 3v3 tourney featuring all of the maps in a more-than-one-day format would be extremely fun to participate in.
Agreed on both points.
I personally don't mind Labyrinth in the cog rotation, of which I may be a minority. Just getting it out there.
I respect your point of view. It's only a matter of opinion, after all.
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While I'd love Duel removed too, I think for the health of the competitive side Dunes and Labyrinth need to go. But most importantly Dunes...burn it, rip it up, and take a leak on it's remains. Then landfill it because it is not even worthy enough to be compost.
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Fjords should go, not because of the map, I personally love the map, but because of the crap spawning... Duel at Dawn has pretty bad spawning too now that I think about it.
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Fjords spawning is disgusting for sure. It really holds the map back.
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fjords spawn should be further away from each other to prevent massive damage burst in 3 seconds from some ship combos and builds
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Just curious, why do some people not like Duel at Dawn?
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People don't like Labyrinth? Really? I think it's one of the more fun 2v2 maps, both in goal and environment. Flying through dark ruins of a post apocalyptic city is awesome.
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I love a good dunes match when I am out playing pub games, but cogs are supposed to be high level play. There are more opportunities for captains to show off their piloting prowess in cluttered maps than in dunes.
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As Smollett knows, I personally love dunes - you can just as easily show off your piloting prowess in Dunes than on the other maps, albeit in a different way. I find most of the good "dogfights" I have are in open areas, and Dunes of course is the open area par excellence.
Labyrinth is definitely the one I would get rid of. Cogs is otherwise a DM event, and CP maps can get tedious and frustrating watching the entrenched team stomp whoever was too slow to get to the point first.
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I don't hate Labyrinth, but it does feel weird having one CP map when the rest are DMs. I wouldn't have a problem with it if we had more 2v2 CPs.
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Just curious, why do some people not like Duel at Dawn?
I just hate it because most of the times we participate, we have to fly on it. Get tired of it. I don't like tiny maps anyways. Too often on Duel you get a kill and then in moments you have that kill right back on you before you can get the 2nd kill. Heck we beat teams by doing just this. Lame imo.
Guess I should hate paritan cause of our record on it but I can't hate it when its not really my doing which led to it. I fly it a lot and fly it totally differently than I have in events. But I do think Muse needs to fix the velco issue.
Labyrinth imo should be a bit faster in play. Quick caps, quick attacks. Actually any 2v2 CP should be much faster on cap rates/etc. The point gathering should stay the same rate but just quicker capping would speed up things and make defending even more important and tense.
Dunes is not a showcase of pilot skills when 90% of the battles on it are long range snipefests.
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I would replace Labyrinth with Raid on the Refinery. KOTH means capping is almost impossible, while crazy king is okay enough.
If somehow turnarounds were easier in Labyrinth and if a team was holding the point constantly we wouldn't have to wait forever.
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Dual at Dawn along with Canyon Ambush.
Duel at Dawn is such a small map which really feels weong in this game.
Canyon Ambush doesn't feel even. One side just watches for the enemy to leave canyons while the other team must start the fight from a tight spot. Not many places to go. (If people play fair and meet around te middle.)
King of the hill also doesn't really belong with it's current machancs in my opinion. You only need one ship blocking te point and that ship doesn't even have to fight.
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I really dislike Duel because you can get stuck in some weird places near the edge of the map, due to all the collidable objects.. If the map size would be enlarged slightly, It would be great..
I love Dunes because it's so simple, open and focuses on pure combat..
But why remove maps when you can add maps.
Because I'd love to see a 4v4 Waterhazard.
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Duel really only has one spot that's really bad on the northeast.
A long time ago people tried to appeal to get it fixed but it was never a priority and I think we all got used to avoiding it and forgot about it.
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Paritan for me, purely because it takes forever for the map to load and the games well under way.
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My that metric, I would want Labyrinth gone. My main engineer always struggle to load that one. I get faced with the dilemma of whether to get their quickly and risk being in combat with no Engineer.
However, I don't know if that is the best reason to take a map out.
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Well labyrinth and paritan should both go. There should be no reason for a capture point map in a tournament, lag aside.
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Sure, lets cut out the only map that forces different thought into loadouts and gameplay. That'll be swell.
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There is more too it than that Zill. I know that map is slow to load for a lot of people, not just me. So there is a good chance that most teams will have some issues in the beginning. That means that the team with the least issues will get to the point first, capture it, and win. Because that's the second issue; any coordinated team is going to make king of the hill dam near impossible. That map is too small, with too long a capture time. All you need is a tanky junker and a squid to hold the point indefinitely. There is no nuance, no death match type strategy, get to the point faster in the beginning, then hold it with a junker and rush to block if you die. People talk about watching sniping being boring? I think anyone would rather watch sniping than a tedious king of the hill game.
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Not sure why this map gives you so many issues, but it's a rather lousy assumption to say everyone has the issues you do with it in terms of performance. It runs for me just fine, and any map in Guns has the potential to give problems on the hardware front. I'd be open to that argument only for 4v4's currently.
Call me crazy, but rushing the point on a KOTH is pretty standard. Even did it in a galleon to win (Flotsam). With competitive teams, they will get there before anyone caps the point for themselves, so you start with an initial engage to determine who holds first. Then it's up to the loser to coordinate their counter. While I can give you the point that takes a long time to cap once its already been captured, its not impossible if you keep your momentum and don't blindly rush in one at a time.
All of that, while happening over a contested point, is much more entertaining (and less time consuming) then taking pot shots from spawns.
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I think anyone would rather watch sniping than a tedious king of the hill game.
I have to disagree with this. The reason people find sniper matches boring is because for a majority of the time nothing is happening, no movement. Even in the most tedious KOTH matches I'm still entertained by the fact that entertaining combat is happening.
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I also have the load issues on Labyrinth and Paritan. I think it's because I have a slow HDD. I don't think that's a reason to axe the map though. Taking any map out of the rotation for Cogs seems kind of against the spirit. Isn't one of the goals to show all that GoIO has to offer? Personally, I'd like to see what interesting strategies competitive teams will come up with for KotH. It hasn't been played much in high level tournaments, so I'm sure there's still a lot of room for innovation and new tactics.
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I've made my peace with knowing I'll be at a personal disadvantage on paritan competitively a long time ago. Luckily even with a slow load I probably won't be in immediate danger or at a huge disadvantage (at least on paritan). However I know from discussions with many people, and the reason why I see it not voted for often, is the loading issue. And it is also an issue on 4v4, not relevant here though.
However I can't afford to be so cavalier about labyrinth where time is of the essence. And to retort Zill, just because it runs fine for you doesn't mean it does for every competitive player. That aside, I would potentially have no issue with ctf if the map is bigger, or is a different map, like a 2v2 dust. But as it stands that map can be insta blocked so easily, and that is the huge issue with any ctf map in this game, and why crazy king is a much better option. If the un-capture time was 20 or 30 seconds, then the map would be competitive, and it wouldn't just be race to insta block and tank.
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My point is not that it runs fine for me thus should stay. Rather, it is a weak argument to say that some people have issues loading that map, so we should just axe it from competition. I brought up 4v4 since (I imagine) a much larger majority of players have issues there, so it could be a more valid reason to consider its removal.
That just leaves us with the capture time, which while possibly not ideal currently, (new discussions could remedy that) is not an impossible hurdle to navigate for a team on the back foot.
It also plays into what 5-1 victories can look like when the game itself felt more like a 5-3. A lot of times, Laby will net a 600-0 score, but really it should look more like 600-350 given the fights over the points.
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Okay, but that's the whole point of this thread. I get that you like labyrinth, most of us like most of these maps. Hell, even I actually like labyrinth and Paritan. But the point of this thread is to get a census, an idea, a discussion as to which maps the competitive community think should go. This is my output, I am articulating that this map causes issues for me, and seeing as how it is the most voted map to go, clearly others as well. Sure if capture times get fixed, and if paritan/labyrinth gets it's rendering time optimized then it may be great for competitive. But I'm talking about right now.
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This thread is actually serveral months old at least. And I'd like to point out that by the current numbers, only 29.9% of voters want Laby to be removed. 6.5% would like Paritan to be removed. People had two votes for this thing, so I can only assume that there's some crossover, but 19.5% of voters would like NO maps to be removed.
Hell, there's a surprising number in favour of removing Dunes, which has entirely the opposite issue.
Either way, according to the current numbers, removing Laby goes against 70.1% of the voters who chose other things, 19.9% of which expressed that they didn't want to see any maps removed. Removing Paritan would go against 93.5% of voters according to the current numbers which are, admittedly, out of date.
This discussion pops up every few weeks during an active season... And my response is still the same. Cogs should continue to use all available 2v2 maps, regardless of game mode. If a map is shown to be disliked by a majority of the community AND doesn't lend itself to high-quality casted events, then it should be considered for removal... But I enjoy watching Laby matches, and I'm at least mildly sure there are others out there that enjoy it too.
However, Qwerty's running the Cogs for season 3, so it's his call this time around.
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Cant agree with this. The way koth works is just a way of play which doesnt fit into competetive atm. I remember a raft game on labyrinth in cogs season 2.
The enemy constantly killed the rafts pyra when it joined the fight. The only thing holding them alive was the junker of the raft. In any deathmatch the raft would have easily lost the match cause the pyra died so often. The junker just blocked the recapture of the point. As much as i liked the perfomance of the junker a competetive match should not be won by one boat. The recapture takes to long for a competetive environment. At such a high lvl u barely get the time to recapture it cause you need both enemy ships dead in nearly no time difference.
And sure you will not get a majority to vote for sth when there is such a varity of answers. If u want to have a majority you have to make a vote with yes or no. No other options. 2 answers so ppl could split up between these two.
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I remember a raft game on labyrinth in cogs season 2.
You are thinking of the Cogs Season 2 Week 5 Brood vs. Pastafarians match on Labyrinth.
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I remember a raft game on labyrinth in cogs season 2.
You are thinking of the Cogs Season 2 Week 5 Brood vs. Pastafarians match on Labyrinth.
Yeah, as much as I wish could take credit for Sammy's performace, that was definitely The Brood.
But your point still stands, Alistair.
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Cant agree with this. The way koth works is just a way of play which doesnt fit into competetive atm. I remember a raft game on labyrinth in cogs season 2.
The enemy constantly killed the rafts pyra when it joined the fight. The only thing holding them alive was the junker of the raft. In any deathmatch the raft would have easily lost the match cause the pyra died so often. The junker just blocked the recapture of the point. As much as i liked the perfomance of the junker a competetive match should not be won by one boat. The recapture takes to long for a competetive environment. At such a high lvl u barely get the time to recapture it cause you need both enemy ships dead in nearly no time difference.
And sure you will not get a majority to vote for sth when there is such a varity of answers. If u want to have a majority you have to make a vote with yes or no. No other options. 2 answers so ppl could split up between these two.
My Junker survivd for so long because we were using the Pyra as distraction. We went into that game with a mindset of not worrying about the kills so much as preventing recapture. It was one of the most tactical games the Brood has ever played for both ships. to use a football analogy Ivan's Pyra was the running back we faked the ball too and the opposing team's resources were too split to stop the hail mary sent to the open wide receiver. Sure the wide receiver got the play, but thats because he was given an opening to the guy who got laid out.
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It is a tactic for sure, but...it's tactic looking to exploit a game type weakness. That being extra long capture times with a tank ship on a small map. Tactics are needed for sure but it still stands to say whoever gets there first and tanks will probably win. Like I said, I actually like labyrinth and Paritan, and Paritan isn't as much an issue. Even though they both render horribly, causing me long loads, at least in Paritan there is no immediate danger. But labyrinth is a victim of bad capture mechanics, and if Muse actually makes capturing easier, than I think it wouldn't be such a negatively viewed map for competitive.
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So, it is exploiting to use a map's natural tactics to win? (aka, capture and then hold a point.)
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That's not what I said, and you even admired the timer is a bit too long. I'm not going to keep circling this issue. I've said my piece, I respect your opinion, respect mine, I expect that of you.
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It is a tactic for sure, but...it's tactic looking to exploit a game type weakness.
Forgive me for reading this and not think you are calling it exploiting. Perhaps you could word it better.
While I can give you the point that takes a long time to cap once its already been captured, its not impossible if you keep your momentum and don't blindly rush in one at a time
That just leaves us with the capture time, which while possibly not ideal currently, (new discussions could remedy that) is not an impossible hurdle to navigate for a team on the back foot.
Also, do not put words into my posts. Perhaps I worded the second one improperly, but if such a thread were to be made, i'd argue that the capture point was fine, and the point counter to win should increase to give teams more time to capture it.
Respect goes both ways.