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Kestril:
--- Quote from: BlackenedPies on July 20, 2017, 06:26:18 pm ---
Have two identical ships at a set distance fire opposite greased at each other while aiming at the same point and swapping ammos each round. Screenshot armor and repeat until results are consistent. Retest at more ranges and with other ships
If this kind of test is too difficult or time consuming then don't test at all! Without testing you end up with biased results like "the 33% larger radius was unnoticeable". Inaccurate tests yield false results... and lead to +90% jitter :'(
--- End quote ---
Except, we did those sorts of tests with practice dummies to get the range/spread/damage down. +33% was unnoticeable.
But even then, such a test wouldn't be that valuable, as the game is not played with two stationary ships only firing one gun while aiming at the same point at each other. Such a controlled test doesn't really hold up because it does not emulate in-game conditions. in an in-game battle conditions, +33% jitter was unnoticed by all testers.
If you want to test, then get in the testing group and test. Then offer feedback on the tests. Don't decry the changes after they've gone in. Greased gat beats out greased hades at eyeball-to-eyeball range. Charged gat roughtly matches greased hades at mid-range. Different ammos for different situations on different guns. It's disingenuous to expect the gatling, a close-range gun, to perform the same as the hades, a mid-range gun in all situations.
BlackenedPies:
I'm intrigued! So you tested greased vs greased+ against target dummies and counted the shots/time to break armor? What were the results? And like I said, that's the minimum necessary test to get a baseline of performance. You should absolutely try more tests at different speeds and even simulate combat. Gotta say though, I've witnessed Dev App combat tests in the past and was not impressed. They're only accurate when everyone has rules how to shoot and repair, otherwise they're...not accurate. A simple mistake can mean a 30% difference in time to break armor
Unfortunately I'm often not available Saturday to assist, and if I was I'm not sure how much help I could be. When I participated in the past it was more of a free-for-all and I didn't find it useful. If I was around last time I'd swear to you guys that I could actually tell the difference between between a 78% larger circle, and that answer would be be no more useful than "unnoticeable"
The issue is "unnoticeable". What does that mean? Does it mean less than 10% DPS/C (or DPC) difference? Because I roughly estimate (using the the "eye" method) greased+ at 300m deals ~+ -20% DPS/C when aiming at a straight-ahead Pyra. The jitter area is a whopping 78% larger...
Hmmm... if only there were numbers....
Richard LeMoon:
Unnoticeable, as not much change in value at most ranges while in combat.
If you want exact values, here ya go.
I see no issues here. Greased is behaving exactly as expected.
BlackenedPies:
Thanks Richard, so we see 36% of shots missed with regular ammo at 300m, which roughly equated to greased at 165m. The actual values are 300m regular = 157m greased, so this real-world test is very close (and luckily near the exact breaking point!). With greased+30% that would be 224m, which is 38% less than max range. This example isn't the whole story of course because the opponent is repairing and greased deals 1039 armor damage per clip (Galleon is 800 armor). This particular test would be closer to that of a Spire in combat (armor = 400 + mallet)
Greased90 reduces range in this scenario by 48% and Greased30 by 25%. The downside of +90% of course is all the side effects (and lack thereof). A light carro at 200m (77% max range) is reduced to just 103m. Other powerful guns, Hades and LJ, are unaffected
I'm happy to reduce Greased effectiveness by 1/4 or even 1/3 but not by 1/2. If 25% is unnoticeable then why was greased overpowered? If 25% is unnoticeable then the 15% of greased was nothing to worry about in the first place!
Kestril:
--- Quote from: BlackenedPies on July 22, 2017, 12:50:30 pm ---I'm happy to reduce Greased effectiveness by 1/4 or even 1/3 but not by 1/2. If 25% is unnoticeable then why was greased overpowered? If 25% is unnoticeable then the 15% of greased was nothing to worry about in the first place!
--- End quote ---
This issue isn't OPness strictly by the numbers, the issue is greased was OP enough to overshadow other ammos on nearly all guns. Greased was the omni-ammo to use at medium and close range. Making its role more distinct (crazy dps at very close range) allows other ammo, such as heavy or charged, to become viable options at mid range. Also, it's worth pointing out, that while greased is less effective at medium range, it is more effective at close range.
You do have a point about the hades an it's interaction with greased. In testing I was of the opinion for some mechanism to add jitter, but due to technical barriers with the code and the high-skill-floor of the hades and lumberjack, adding jitter at the time would make those guns very frustrating to use. From what I understood, those guns have to have a base jitter value for greased to apply, and adding a jitter value would make them terribly inaccurate at long range and cut the skill factor immensely. But, before we can start re-balancing those powerful guns we need to get the ammos balanced into distinct roles too.
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