Purpose of Lochnagar reversion call?

[Daft Loon]

I've seen a lot of people calling for loch to be reverted. Is there any point to this other than removing loch gatling? There's been some talk about restoring old uses but as far as I can tell new loch is equal or better at all of those with the exception of its nerf to only -60% jitter:

Lumberjack - If you reload instead of firing the second shot its exactly the same as old loch except it turns faster and hurts your gun less.

Minotaur - Aside from the jitter change exactly the same story as the lumberjack.

H.Carronade - Has been fixed, guns that only fire 1 shot with loch now suffer similar (possibly the same I'm not sure) self damage to what they got with old loch. Only the jitter has been nerfed now.

Minelauncher - Is exactly the same except it turns faster.

Old H.Flak - Would be exactly what it was since the fix for the H.Carronade, except it would turn faster.

New H.Flak - Won't be any better with old loch.


How about an attempt to actually realize the potential new loch had in testing?

-Revert the turning speed, this would really restrict loch gatling.

-Revert the jitter, it was fun and that should be enough reason.

-Put the clip size back to -40% so that some of the other light guns can use it well.

-Add -20% rate of fire or something similar to reduce the more extreme dps effects.

[Richard LeMoon]

A better question is "What is loch's place currently?" What is it supposed to do? What is its call to fame?

It had a clearly defined role before. One ultra powerful shot. It was the Greased of heavy guns. Now it is the what? Greased/Heavy/Charged of all guns, with a bit of damage? It has lost its identity and assumed another.

So, what is it?

I am not opposed to practically locking the guns in place when loaded with loch. In fact, that was one of the fun things about it. You have to really time your reloads. The jitter should be 100% reduction. It is one shot, after all. Or, if possible, an exponential increase in jitter starting at 100%, and removing 10% with each shot. After 10 shots, it starts increasing jitter by 10% per shot. This would effectively remove long range gat, but would allow for rushes to keep the target inside the rapidly expanding spread.

[Daft Loon]

I like the jitter idea, if i did the math right gatling would end up with 11 degrees assuming a 40% clip reduction which is still reasonable, the flamethrower getting to 90 degrees would be amusing. The effect on the light carronade and minotaur would also be a reasonable limitation.

[Richard LeMoon]

Well, I just picked 10% as an arbitrary number. I am sure the number geeks will spend more time hammering it out if it is possible. I will inquire with the devs.

[ZnC]

I've said this many times and I will say it again. From a design perspective, the primary role of Lochnagar is to reduce arming time. There are no other ammo types that do this.

The ones with a similar effect reduce projectile speed (up to 30% from incendiary), which incidentally affects arming range. Lochnagar reduces arming time by a whooping 60%, while maintaining your projectile speed/shot trajectory.

Granted, it has an added "cool factor" of being a high-risk ammo that does a burst of damage. But, IMO, that is not its primary function.

[Solidusbucket]

Fuck that, new Loch has lightning. Don't you take my lightning flame thrower and machine gun away you Devils.

[ZnC]

Fuck that, new Loch has lightning. Don't you take my lightning flame thrower and machine gun away you Devils.

Solidus, even the old Loch had lightning. Just that it was hardly noticable when the gun explodes itself.

Anyway I think lightning machine gun and flamethrower is cool and all. But I much prefer my LIGHTNING FIREBALLS (Hades).

[Richard LeMoon]

I am going to say what we are all thinking.

Loch Flare is where its at.


ZnC has it right. Until it started trying to be GreasedHeavyCharged, Loch's niche has been reduction of arming time and wonder shots. It has lost that identity to become another Greased, while Greased has not returned the favor.

[ZnC]

I've sent this in before but I'm just going to post it here. As someone who considers himself a gunning enthusiast and intimate with the numbers - this is how I look at Loch.

Lochnagar
Primarily use: Arming time reduction
Secondary uses: High risk burst damage, jitter reduction
Guns with arming time:

• Lumberjack
• H.Flak
• Hades
• L.Flak
• Mine Launcher
• Flare

Notable mention: H.Carro (used for jitter reduction and burst damage)

Proposal:

• Clip Size: -50% (previously -60%)
• Rate of Fire: -50% (added)
• AoE, Arming Time, Rotation Speed, Recoil, Damage, Self Damage: same as before

Rationale:

• Clip Size change (50% instead of 60%) allows it to be much more viable on Hades and L.Flak, both of which have Arming Time.
• Rate of Fire change (50% reduction) allows it to fill its niche as a burst ammo type. This fixes all the broken DPS values.

The end result - you get an ammo type that is viable on all the guns mentioned above, but still fun to play with on other guns.