#AmmotudeAdjustment - GREASED ammunition proposals

[Unarmed Civilian]

GREASED AMMO _______________	Damage _____	Clip Size _____	Rate of Fire _____	Projectile Speed _____	Rotation Speed _____	Jitter _____
Proposed Stats Option 1	-20%	+20%	+60%	-20%	-15%	+30%

I like the idea of the jitter nerf to keep its technical range but reduce its effective range. Like shotguns in TF2. You CAN shoot at mid-long range for 5-20 damage, but it's most effective at mid-close range for 70-90.

[Dementio]

Hades arm time is aactually really low and Greased Hades decreases it even further while maximizing it's dps to the level of Gatling, while even doing more hull damage than a Gatling. I wouldn't mind Greased Hades becoming a little bit more risky to pull off.

A base minimum jitter added by greased, say 1.5, would have little or no effect at mid-close range on hades

I mean, we could test it.

And to clarify, that:

one person had this complaint about himself and his clan mate being OP with Greased Hades.

Is not actually a quote or remotely similar to what I said, but I will take it as a compliment that Jedi thinks I am that good with a Hades.

[BlackenedPies]

A base minimum jitter added by greased, say 1.5, would have little or no effect at mid-close range on hades

I mean, we could test it.

A jitter of 2 deg, the same as banshee, at 200m is 3.5m dispersion. So imagine the burst radius of light flak, which is 4m. That's not enough to miss, and the piercing burst radius itself is 5m

[Dementio]

But the Hades has a much slower projectile speed than the Banshee. While it could still hit something, especially at really close range, hitting the armor directly of a ship that moves quickly or while your own ship makes rapid movements could cause some more shots to miss, potentially making Greased Hades a bit worse than it otherwise would be. But I guess if too many other guns would suffer from the spread increase, it isn't worth testing a hypothesis that might not even be true.

[BlackenedPies]

But the Hades has a much slower projectile speed than the Banshee. While it could still hit something, especially at really close range, hitting the armor directly of a ship that moves quickly or while your own ship makes rapid movements could cause some more shots to miss, potentially making Greased Hades a bit worse than it otherwise would be. But I guess if too many other guns would suffer from the spread increase, it isn't worth testing a hypothesis that might not even be true.

My point is that 3.5m dispersion isn't a lot and I don't think it would effect hades accuracy at close range. Mid range sniping against a spire, maybe, but for most purposes I don't think it'll have a noticeable effect. A reduced velocity would make it more difficult to hit, forcing use at closer ranges, but then you're also reducing arm time which is arguably a buff. I don't think it would hurt to increase the hades arm time to compensate with the proposed -30% vel greased, in fact I think a slight reduction to hade close range power is welcome. I don't think it would be a problem on Lflak, and against Lumber the arm range would be 154m - not ideal but manageable

I wish there was another option to reduce effectiveness on hades as well as gat, but there isn't yet

[ZnC]

(tl;dr: Zanc's proposal - Remove +20% Clip Size.)

I refrained from posting because I didn't see a need for Greased to be changed. But after hashing it out with Richard (and Daniel kinda?) on Skype, I do think Buff Hammer + Greased is too strong. This is because of how buff's +20% damage work with the increase in clip size.

Greased gives 60% Rate of Fire, but drops damage by 20%; the buff hammer negates this drawback. So you are essentially getting both +60% Rate of Fire and a +20% Clip Size. The only downsides are -20% Projectile Speed and -15% Rotation speed - mere inconveniences.

My suggestion is (as always) a simple one. Remove the 20% increase in Clip Size. This lets it deal higher DPS while firing, but lowers overall clip damage. Greased then becomes important for getting crucial 'armor-down' shots in, instead of just simply making the gun 'stronger'.

[ZnC]

Scratch my previous post. After spending much time discussing and staring at my spreadsheet...

My conclusion is that the (+20% damage from) buff hammer needs to be nerfed first. Otherwise, my proposal would have been +10% clip size, -25% Damage, +80% Rate of Fire. This lets Greased fit into its niche of high burst DPS and low clip damage. However, increasing Rate of Fire also increases the DPS given from buffs. So buffed Greased Gat would be pretty much broken.