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Minotaur fix: Charging?

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Naoura:
1: The buckshot spread would be reduced greatly, and range would be extended for increased charging. I already stated that it would be put on reload if you fully charged it, so that greatly nerfs it's fire rate if you're doing half-charges.

2: Heavy clip is fine in the Mino, and it is literally required for it's use, since the Mino spreads so far it's impossible to use at any real range, that's exactly why I proposed the changes I did. To make it more effective at range. Heavy clip in the Mino when just using click arming makes it about as useful as a Carro at range, so as to balance it and to make the player decide whether or not to take the time to charge it or not. Heavy would increase the disable ability of the weapon.

3: The Mino fires scrap by using compressed air. The Arashi are freaking poor and have little to nothing. Compressed air and scrap would be the best explanation.

4:Don't know if that would work for the mino, Loon. The Mino I think has always been, and kind of should be, a wild-card weapon. That's a great concept for a different one though, some kind of radio-controlled detonation weapon. Rocket maybe? Or else some kind of depth charge-esque weapon? Simply lob explosives into the area, remote det them when you think you've got them in the radius?

Unarmed Civilian:

--- Quote from: Atruejedi on January 18, 2017, 08:08:01 pm ---
--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on January 18, 2017, 07:41:33 pm ---Remove clip size reduction on Heavy Clip.
--- End quote ---

I'm not against removing the Heavy Clip ammo reduction... but it needs some sort of downside. I do think a 25% reduction is a bit steep. I think 20% is much more reasonable, but I'm genuinely curious as to how you (and others) would balance it if it didn't suffer a clip size reduction.

Less damage?
Slower fire rate?
Lower gun rotation speed?

I'm partial to both of the latter options simultaneously. Slow down the rotation of the gun and make it fire a bit slower.

--- End quote ---

It has a downside. It's not Burst or Greased. Opportunity cost. Balance compared to normal ammo is not what should be considered, it's balance compared to the ammos that would be used otherwise. Normal is not viable to begin with, the only time it's used is by engineers running Lesmok to the point where it's basically the alternate mode of Lesmok.

20% is a 5% improvement on a downside that is so steep that it's unusable unless it's effectively a 0% downside (H carro and flares). The only other gun it sees use with (light carro) primarily runs incendiary instead due to extreme synergy. And when they don't they're still using greased.

The reduced clip size  should be removed entirely in my opinion. It would still be a situational pick over the raw power of Burst and Greased as they are simply better in most situations, but at least it would be viable outside of flares and H carro.

If it needs a downside they could use its original downside: -10% velocity. Slower fire rate and less damage both reduce its DPS and the reason it's not viable is due to lack of DPS, so I'm against those. Lower gun rotation speed sounds perfectly fine.


Removing the downside of heavy clip would buff the Minotaur by around 30%. You get 4 shots instead of 3. That's a significant buff to a somewhat underpowered gun right there.


It's a shame their balance guy doesn't read any of this. Makes me wonder if it's worth writing all this stuff in the first place.

Atruejedi:

--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on January 18, 2017, 08:37:48 pm ---It has a downside. It's not Burst or Greased. Opportunity cost. Balance compared to normal ammo is not what should be considered, it's balance compared to the ammos that would be used otherwise.
--- End quote ---

Well, stop right there. We come from two completely different schools of thought. Our ammo philosophies are radically different. I think normal ammo should always be viable and that the additional ammos should provide different options for the gun into which that ammo is loaded. You say it's not Burst or Greased, and that's the downside. That's exactly why I've been calling for Muse to #NerfBurst and #NerfGreased for months now.

That being said, since we're from different schools, it's pointless for me to address the details of your post beyond that point...


--- Quote ---It's a shame their balance guy doesn't read any of this. Makes me wonder if it's worth writing all this stuff in the first place.
--- End quote ---

...except that. 8)

Daft Loon:
Remembering back a fair way we actually had for a while roughly the same thing as this charging idea more or less - Old Lochnagar on the new Minotaur:
-Sacrificed the rest of your shots to make one more powerful
-Massively reduced turning speed
-Significantly increased effective range

It was great, with bit of care you could hit things out near its 1800m maximum range and actually hurt them.



--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on January 18, 2017, 08:37:48 pm ---If it needs a downside they could use its original downside: -10% velocity.

--- End quote ---

Considering the main reason to nerf heavy clip was a dislike of it increasing the effective range on the carronades that might be a good plan. Taking that and running with it:
Heavy Clip
-95% scatter (because 100% looked silly to me)
-20% velocity

Still nerfs the long range balloon popping while allowing the carronades and Minotaur to attack components in a more worthwhile manner.

Unarmed Civilian:
On a phone right now so pardon my formatting. Also can't really do complex calculations like this.

--- Quote from: Atruejedi on January 19, 2017, 03:14:41 am ---
--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on January 18, 2017, 08:37:48 pm ---It has a downside. It's not Burst or Greased. Opportunity cost. Balance compared to normal ammo is not what should be considered, it's balance compared to the ammos that would be used otherwise.
--- End quote ---

Well, stop right there. We come from two completely different schools of thought. Our ammo philosophies are radically different. I think normal ammo should always be viable and that the additional ammos should provide different options for the gun into which that ammo is loaded. You say it's not Burst or Greased, and that's the downside. That's exactly why I've been calling for Muse to #NerfBurst and #NerfGreased for months now.

That being said, since we're from different schools, it's pointless for me to address the details of your post beyond that point...

--- End quote ---

Then what is the point of discussion? Is this supposed to be some mindless echo chamber? If we have wildly different opinions on balance then that is all the more reason to discuss why and talk our way to some common ground. Refusing to discuss merely on the grounds that we have differing opinions signals that you do not want your position to be discussed, you want it accepted as the only correct solution.

Now I'll reply to the actual substance.

Normal is not viable as a primary ammunition. It is a secondary. The tweaks and tradeoffs the other ammunition give puts them above normal in the common use case.

Lesmok let's you hit targets that would not even be possible to hit with nornal. Greased ramps up short term DPS for when time (of armor rebuild) is critical. Burst (ignoring clip size) improves reliability of AoE damage. Charged gives you single shots that deal significantly more damage at the cost of ammo capacity.

Are they strictly better than Normal in all cases? Burst gat and greased  H carro say no. But in their niches they are far better than Normal. Even 4 shot Burst artemis would still be better than Normal artemis for the vast majority of situations. And if you have normal loaded in the artemis you aren't using the ammo that gives the gun access to its full potential.

Even if there was a "better Normal" ammo, I argue that would still not be viable in most guns over the more appropriate specialized ammo. See Charged rounds.

Is the power of Greased and Burst a bit high? Yes. At the same time their power is a crucial component of the meta game and the balance of entire ships. Burst should probably have one less of a magazine bonus, but keep in mind that means Goldy might no longer one-clip Pyra anymore. Greased should probably do something to increase reload time to balance out the up-front burst damage and punish missing more. Maybe cause it to do half the gun's health on damage upon emptying the gun or something. 

On the subject of Heavy, it is not viable due to its lack of ammo capacity. The only guns where it is viable do not suffer it's full downside. If light carro suffered the full downside and had only 3 shots then Heavy would trump Charged in general unviability. Flares dont't count as they are not used as primary guns unless you're a dev or you don't consider winning important at the moment.

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