Info > Feedback and Suggestions
Minotaur fix: Charging?
Kestril:
With the ammos discussion, I think the specialist ammos should always be more useful than normal when put in the right situation. It's what makes the gunner class at least a little bit useful.
The problem is, the situations are too broad for ammo that are supposed to be niche. Greased rounds, for example, still have sufficient range. In a charge it's not worth poking with lesmok or normal beacuse you'll reach greased range by the time the clip is empty. The solution is go overboard by deepening and narrowing greased ammos niche. Make it more powerful, but also make the situation more specific. The way forward is to make each ammo's niche more powerful, but less broad.
Normal ammo is just that, normal. It's the ammo you use when you don't have the ammo for that particular situation. I'm with Unarmed Civilian on this one, BUUUUUT I don't think the two positions are as far apart as they seem. As you make ammos more situationally powerful, normal ammo will be used when not in that powerful situation. By making the niches of ammunition more specific, normal will see more use by filling in the gaps when the guns are not operating in the ship's niche role.
Here's what I'd do to greased:
->Increase greased's firerate
->Increase greased's clipsize
->Decrease greased range
->Increase greased's spread (to above old gatling levels)
->Increase greased's jitter.
Those changes would increase the value of greased ammo at close range, but decrease its value at medium and long range. This secures its niche as the go-to source of close-range damage, but also opens up space for other mid-range ammos to compete. And, it also gives the ammo a downside of not being able to disable components for weapons without AoE reliably. That's heavy's (or was heavy's) niche. Greased shouldn't tread on that.
I'd do this to burst.
->Increase explosion radius more
->Decrease clip size by a % instead of increasing clip size
->Decrease ROF even more.
Now, burst ammo's NICHE is to GET THE DISABLE. Instead of a spammy ammo, it's NICHE is to get critical components when it matters. It trades sustainability of shooting for reliability of a disable.
The old lochnagar was an example of the "narrow-but-deep" niche. It was the deepest and most narrow ammo available, and it was FUN to use and only powerful within it's niche. The thing people have to start doing is discussing what niche ammos like charged and heavy should me.
Unarmed Civilian:
--- Quote from: Kestril on January 19, 2017, 01:51:55 pm ---With the ammos discussion, I think the specialist ammos should always be more useful than normal when put in the right situation. It's what makes the gunner class at least a little bit useful.
The problem is, the situations are too broad for ammo that are supposed to be niche. Greased rounds, for example, still have sufficient range... ...The way forward is to make each ammo's niche more powerful, but less broad.
...
Here's what I'd do to greased:
->Increase greased's firerate
->Increase greased's clipsize
->Decrease greased range
->Increase greased's spread (to above old gatling levels)
->Increase greased's jitter.
Those changes would increase the value of greased ammo at close range, but decrease its value at medium and long range. This secures its niche as the go-to source of close-range damage, but also opens up space for other mid-range ammos to compete. And, it also gives the ammo a downside of not being able to disable components for weapons without AoE reliably. That's heavy's (or was heavy's) niche. Greased shouldn't tread on that.
--- End quote ---
Jitter and spread are the same thing in this game. See carronades.
In all seriousness I'm down for this idea. It maintains greased's role as the fast damage, high DPS ammo but gives it a more realistic downside. I wonder how increased jitter would affect weapons that don't have jitter.
--- Quote from: Kestril on January 19, 2017, 01:51:55 pm ---I'd do this to burst.
->Increase explosion radius more
->Decrease clip size by a % instead of increasing clip size
->Decrease ROF even more.
Now, burst ammo's NICHE is to GET THE DISABLE. Instead of a spammy ammo, it's NICHE is to get critical components when it matters. It trades sustainability of shooting for reliability of a disable.
...
--- End quote ---
It seems like Burst was intended to be the SPAMSPAMSPAM ammo with its current stats. But we already have that in Greased. If these changes were to go through, I think the decreased clip size and lower rate of fire should combined equal about the firing time of standard rounds, if for no other reason than to see how it would perform at that level.
As for heavy clip's niche, it is obviously concentrated firepower and precision. Its purpose is to focus all the firepower of a normally imprecise gun into specific targets. Personally, I think a loss of range or increased difficulty in predicting and tracking target movement would be a fair downside for an increase in precision. That I don't think would be fair is lowering its damage capabilities, as at a certain point it works against itself to the point where you might as well just use greased or even normal so that more damage connects by virtue of simply having more damage.
So reduced velocity, reduced range, and reduced gun handling would be what I would target as downsides. Give up versatility or usability for more precision. I would personally choose shell velocity to make it harder to hit with but more precise. An ammo that increases the skill floor and the skill ceiling of a weapon and isn't Loch.
Lesmok, an ammo used to help improve long-range accuracy, already uses reduced rotation speed as a downside and has a much stronger upside (much more range) than heavy clip to counter-act its clip size reduction. I don't think people would be against Heavy clip having a rotation speed downside if it had its clip size restored.
Kestril:
--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on January 19, 2017, 03:14:37 pm ---
Jitter and spread are the same thing in this game. See carronades.
In all seriousness I'm down for this idea. It maintains greased's role as the fast damage, high DPS ammo but gives it a more realistic downside. I wonder how increased jitter would affect weapons that don't have jitter.
--- End quote ---
iirc, Jitter is the amount the gun "recoils" after shooting every round. Spread is the amount of variance in direction the bullets have after leaving the gun. More spread means a wider cone of bullets. More jitter means you'll have a harder time aiming that cone.
If not, well, that's what I meant by those two terms. Just clarifying for the sake of clarity.
--- Quote ---It seems like Burst was intended to be the SPAMSPAMSPAM ammo with its current stats. But we already have that in Greased. If these changes were to go through, I think the decreased clip size and lower rate of fire should combined equal about the firing time of standard rounds, if for no other reason than to see how it would perform at that level.
--- End quote ---
Let incindiary and heatsink become the spam ammos, I'm presenting a case for very specialized roles ammos have, but I do agree it would be interesting to see how it compares if greased becomes more specialized and isn't a catch-all ammunition for medium-close range engagements.
--- Quote ---As for heavy clip's niche, it is obviously concentrated firepower and precision. Its purpose is to focus all the firepower of a normally imprecise gun into specific targets. Personally, I think a loss of range or increased difficulty in predicting and tracking target movement would be a fair downside for an increase in precision. That I don't think would be fair is lowering its damage capabilities, as at a certain point it works against itself to the point where you might as well just use greased or even normal so that more damage connects by virtue of simply having more damage.
So reduced velocity, reduced range, and reduced gun handling would be what I would target as downsides. Give up versatility or usability for more precision. I would personally choose shell velocity to make it harder to hit with but more precise. An ammo that increases the skill floor and the skill ceiling of a weapon and isn't Loch.
Lesmok, an ammo used to help improve long-range accuracy, already uses reduced rotation speed as a downside and has a much stronger upside (much more range) than heavy clip to counter-act its clip size reduction. I don't think people would be against Heavy clip having a rotation speed downside if it had its clip size restored.
--- End quote ---
The hard part about heavy is it's value depends on the relative inaccuracy of other raycast guns. It did have a niche in the gatling before gatlings became more precise, and a prominence on carros before their range was reduced. I do think that heavy shouldn't effect clipsize, however, and I do think the tradeoff of precision/versatility is a good starting point to design heavy around. Still, be careful with slowing the rounds down. We haven't seen heavy hwacha in a while for extreme-range shots due to the speed slowdown. Just a comment. I do agree that it should effect gun handling rather than clipsize.
Anyways, good discussion, I'll probably send an e-mail with a link to this thread. So muse can read it.
--- Quote from: Naoura ---4:Don't know if that would work for the mino, Loon. The Mino I think has always been, and kind of should be, a wild-card weapon. That's a great concept for a different one though, some kind of radio-controlled detonation weapon. Rocket maybe? Or else some kind of depth charge-esque weapon? Simply lob explosives into the area, remote det them when you think you've got them in the radius?
--- End quote ---
ACTUALLY, that's the alliance heavy mine launcher. I'm trying to get that one over to skirmish after alliance launch. It's a nice gun that's near the balance threshold already,although i wish it did piercing damage, but it's unique and flexible enough to stand on it's own.
Naoura:
nice to see the ammo discussion... but would anyone have any actual critique as for the changes idea...?
Kestril:
I like the idea of it charging to reduce spread. it's distinct from the other guns and offers the minnow a greater degree of usefulness at range with a sufficent skill floor not to make it instant-win.
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