Lower Goldfish hull health to 1000

[Unarmed Civilian]

Small nerf to reign in its general dominance. A lot of medium guns have been nerfed because of Goldfish making them OP, so it's probably the Goldfish that is OP. Just a bit.

This hull health brings it closer to the Spire (950) in numbers durability, though the fish will always be tankier due to having two people so close to the hull. The armor is never down for long on a Goldy. It also makes it easier to chip down a goldfish in a long chase while keeping its primary weakness of being rammed to death or overwhelming firepower.

Fun fact: If both the gunner and main engineer run to rebuild the hull at the same time, it takes the main engineer only 4 hits to rebuild (assuming 3 hits by gunner). It is 6 hits for a solo engineer. For comparison, the Pyramidion and Junker both take 9 hits to rebuild solo.

[GurasOguras]

"Hurr durr let's nerf the fish because I don't like the numbers."
I am sorry to say that, but you've triggered me, comrade :>

Exactly because of the low armor is why we need to have that additional permahull for being able to sustain the heavy combat. I bet you just looked at the numbers, did some math and thought that goldfishes are OP, just and only because you need that additional few mortar shots to take it down. The Metamidion is already a counter to goldfish. Imagine how terrible it would be if instead of 2 clips you'd need only 1 to kill a ship which main role is to support the team. I am telling you: That would ruin the both the pub match and competitive balance, so plz no.

As a guy with years of competitive level experience in this game, I can assure you that the experience stands behind my back. And maybe I'm not the authority to many of you since my number of matches are not as high as some of the Rydr individuals, but I really know what I'm talking about.

it's probably the Goldfish Hwacha that is OP. Just a bit.

Fixed that for you.

It's totally not like carrofish is so shit now that taking heavy flak seems like a more reasonable choice (It still isn't, lol). Every single fish that does not include a hwacha on it has just no use in a high-level match. It's totally not like Hwacha has the most utility of the medium/heavy guns so it's favored on that ship which is heavily relying on the front gun.

Fun fact: If both the gunner and main engineer run to rebuild the hull at the same time, it takes the main engineer only 4 hits to rebuild (assuming 3 hits by gunner). It is 6 hits for a solo engineer. For comparison, the Pyramidion and Junker both take 9 hits to rebuild solo.

#THEYDIDTHEMATH :O

It's not like the armor for the goldfish is almost half of the Junker. It totally won't go down in few Gatling shots if still under fire. It's not like Pyra/Junker's hull is also accessible by most of the crew. When it comes to tanking the Pyramidion and especially the Junker can hold up for much much longer than the fish. Listen, comrade: There is a reason we take light flak instead of mortar when we fight the Goldfish/Squid team composition. I'd suggest realizing why.
No personal offense was intended during construction of this post

weakness of being rammed to death

LOL

A lot of medium guns have been nerfed

so it's probably the Goldfish that is OP

[Unarmed Civilian]

Jesus Christ, no wonder so many people abandoned this game.

Saying offense is intended does not mean it does not offend. If anything it points out how offensive it is.

I brought this up in light of the change to the Squid, which is countered most by the Goldfish, and the recent change to the Mobula, which was strong against the Goldfish.

I also wanted to free up design space for powerful medium guns for the Spire and Galleon, since the Goldfish has historically been the most effective at utilizing close-range heavy guns.

[MightyKeb]

I feel like both of you are on the wrong foot here.

Jesus Christ, no wonder so many people abandoned this game.

This isn't really the reason but I'll assume you're being rhetoric.

Saying offense is intended does not mean it does not offend. If anything it points out how offensive it is.

But it's always up to the individual (you) to be offended. I think you're misassuming his intentions because you're prone to taking his odd approach to the conversation seriously.


I'm not a fish expert, but I think the ship is just fine. Your later comments are what really brought me here:

I brought this up in light of the change to the Squid, which is countered most by the Goldfish, and the recent change to the Mobula, which was strong against the Goldfish.

Well, the interesting thing here is that overtime it was realized by the competitive community that taking squid agains't a fish =/= instant loss, and that a hwachafish in particular could 1v1 a lot of the meta mobulas you see today and some others, but results vary depending on the build. I won't deny that fish specifically has some advantages agains't a squid matchup.


Speaking of, the change to the squid is a bit too heavy. The thing about squid is it doesn't have the speed to dodge damage, but it has enough to avoid gun arcs and kite. The previous squid was fine because the high hull let you commit to some engagements where staying for a kill mattered and had to be done. This made it much alike to the pyra at times, but it's either that or it gets a boost in firepower to burst people down before it's squashed. (Or some other changes that I'll end up describing shortly)

I was personally interested in the dev app changes when squid's hull was pulled down to 650 simply because even though manouverability was kept the same, the armor was increased to keep the ratio between two values even. This is kind of a lazy way to balance the squid and it's been in effect for the past one or two years (see: 950 hull squid) but it's worked very well so far because it provides a cushion for those times where squid is supposed to avoid damage but just can't because it's not quite there in terms of being a real mosquito. It wasn't infinite and managing that resource was possibly paramount to flying it agains't good teams.  In-comes the real patch though, and this hull/armor ratio is completely thrown out of the window and squid still isn't fast enough to make it worth being that squishy.

-- In short, I understand your concern that the squid changes might hurt it too much agains't the un-nerfed goldfish, but I assure you that's more of a case of squid being underwhelming right now than fish being good. Mobula has also kept the throne for vertical mobility after the changes, and it's still pretty damn good.

I also wanted to free up design space for powerful medium guns for the Spire and Galleon, since the Goldfish has historically been the most effective at utilizing close-range heavy guns.

Actually, back when heavy flak used to be more or less overpowered it was extremely common to see it on goldfishes aswell. I'm sure RearAdmiralZill would tell you a lot about that if you brought the notion to him. Lumberjack had no arming time back then aswell, I wouldnt know but it was probably good on goldfish aswell. Probably still is.

I'll tell you the thing Hwacha, Carronade and Flak shared in common with fish's history though (leaving out minotaur for obvious reasons)

Flak could shred armor aswell as hull.

Carronade could pop balloons from medium range, close range, aswell as disable anything but a main engine in one shot.

Hwacha right now has somewhat respectable armor shred, a helpful amount of explosive damage and instant disables several components.


From what I can see these guns were prized on the fish because they were so versatile they could make themselves self sufficient on a ship that could abuse them. If there was a self sufficient/versatile long range heavy gun that would still be pretty good on the fish, because you're flying around with this long range gun as one of the fastest ships in the game with the weirdest angles for the enemy to shoot your armor with.  Probably the better way to kill goldfish by design is to make all heavy guns unable to function well without the help of one another. There is some truth in goldfish being the best at utilizing close range heavy guns, but that's not necessarily a bad thing imo.

[GurasOguras]

Saying no offense is intended does not mean it does not offend. If anything it points out how offensive it is.

I agree that my post might have included too little substantive content, but the phrase about no offense intended as stupid as it sounds, was actually true. I don't want to make a shitstorm out of this, and I am sorry if you felt like a kid on the beach whose sand castle got kicked by the bully. It's nothing personal but also, on the other hand, I wanted to highlight how I believe that you have no idea about what you're saying.

I brought this up in light of the change to the Squid, which is countered most by the Goldfish, and the recent change to the Mobula, which was strong against the Goldfish.

It's because goldfish is countered by disables and right now almost all Squids are gat+banshee, while Mobula usually has artemis-based build onboard. The builds and execution are what counters the goldfish, not the ships themselves.

If you're looking for a ship, that counters the Squid more than any other: Junker is what you're looking for, not the Goldfish. But that itself is not a reason for it to be nerfed.

[RearAdmiralZill]

1. Lets not turn this discussion into something it shouldn't be. Let's keep it civil and get our points across eh?

2.

Actually, back when heavy flak used to be more or less overpowered it was extremely common to see it on goldfishes aswell. I'm sure RearAdmiralZill would tell you a lot about that if you brought the notion to him. Lumberjack had no arming time back then aswell, I wouldnt know but it was probably good on goldfish aswell. Probably still is.

Appreciate that shout out  . I do miss the flak fish but that was definitely a case of the gun being OP, not our beloved fish. It works again with Alliance though! Small victory. When the lumber first came out with no arming time, yea it was OP as hell and I honestly didn't use it till they put it there. That was a hectic few weeks. Currently it's still a great gun to use on a fish, but kills are kinda slow. Very much more of a support boat. Carronades where made OP by Eric giving it 50m extra range for the hell of it (i'm exaggerating but the current heavy carro makes me sad) and the fish could utilize this to great effect. It got nerfed a bit too much in my opinion, but that's not why we're here. Hwacha is currently the best gun (opinion) to put up front, mainly for the versatility. It can support, it can kill. Burst ammo needs changes to mitigate this at long ranges, but if you don't de-fang a fish up close you should pay for it. What do all of these have in common? The gun was OP and needed nerfing, not the Goldfish.

And on to the proper discussion. The Goldfish does not need nerfs. Yea it utilizes a single heavy gun to pretty devastating effect because it gets to control the range of engagement. Any other boat using these guns can't as well for various reasons. Spire can't cause it's squishy and slow, but to compensate you get light guns forward facing to bring the pain. A Galleon can't by design due to broadsides, but you get two to play with, and a light gun on port. Goldfish requires what it has because your heavy gun defines how you're going to fly it, and if you want to be close, it needs health to do it. Enter the current perma and armor values. Armor is low and perma is kinda high. You generally trade perma to get close, especially against hard counters like a Pyra. Taking out that heavy gun is also made super easy with how it has 0 armor around it, and it's really the "teeth" of a Goldfish. Disable the gun, de-fang the fish, chip him away. A fish with low remaining perma is super limited in what it can do.

There are a ton of ways to counter a Goldfish these days with the prominence of burst ammo in Artemis and Hwachas, as well as guns like gatling that can very handily take out that front gun, or a merc for one-shot wonders. Squids have a hard time, and the changes put in place aren't helping. Needs more get-up-and-go.

Heavy guns needed nerfing because they were in fact OP. The Goldfish was just able to exploit those factors the best due to its great control over its choice of heavy gun. Spire and Galleon's issues aren't because the guns are underwhelming. It's a multitude of other issues which I can elaborate on if you wish.

[Spud Nick]

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2784.0.html

Here is a post from a few years ago talking about the Goldfish.

[Daft Loon]

Even as a fairly dedicated goldfish hater I've never really had a problem with it as far as general balance (at least since the blenderfish got nerfed into the ground), the weakness of the armor is enough that my generally dubious ramming Mobula loadouts do well against the goldfish. It also suffers horribly from a well applied Minotaur.

I can agree with the complications around balancing heavy guns mainly:
-Carronade has to be nerfed because blenderfish, now it sucks on galleon/spire.
-Hwacha can't be nerfed because then what will the fish use?

The main problem I think is the lack of side gun usage, the Hwacha only works because of its long reload cycle, Carronade, Flak and Minotaur struggle to make any use of side guns leading to Flak/Mino-fish being jokes and blenderfish largely ignoring its side guns and working (less so recently) only due to the power of the Carronade. Lumberjack is a special case thats more or less fine as is.

[Solidusbucket]

Guess ill chime in since i have been using goldfish more recently.

Its fine.

[Arturo Sanchez]

Jesus Christ, no wonder so many people abandoned this game.

Its always funny when a Junior thinks they can sum up 3 (its 4 i know but I wasn't there) years of the game's history.


Also Blenderfish was my baby. For the longest time it was my trademark ship. It had many subtleties and any slight miscalculation and lost of control on enemy target will result in your losing the combat vs any decent meta pilot.

A blender needs several seconds of control on an enemy ship to kill. A meta just needs 1 hull break and ram to kill he same goldfish, and a smart meta will shoot the gat on the blender so they can't kill via ram kill.

So when I hear this nonsense about hull nerf. I'm like... do you even play guns? Let's also not forget that even pre-carro nerf. It was a MUST to use correct ammo on a blender for it to be vaguely effective. A default meta could easily out dps a pre nerf blender.

[Unarmed Civilian]

Personally I feel like slightly lowered hull health wouldn't impact its performance much (metamidion ram connectiong + guns firing will kill it either way) and only really impact its ability to withstand chip damage. However, I'm probably biased since I have a tendency to fly Galleons more often and resent being forced to switch from ships I want to fly by someone switching to Hwachafish on the other side.

It seems obvious that I'm in the wrong for suggesting this. Interesting discussion either way.

[MightyKeb]

However, I'm probably biased since I have a tendency to fly Galleons more often and resent being forced to switch from ships I want to fly by someone switching to Hwachafish on the other side.

Try doing some weird galleon builds with the express purpose of not being devoured by a hwachafish. Mino in particular while largely useless has an underrated niche of being able to knock a fish off angle just about anytime it wants. One of my personal favorites is Mino-Hwacha-Artemis - largely because of the artemis, but you can swap that out with something else as it's a bit risky to do (Hades w/ greased works well with mino here.) Just have to remember that despite all of this you will not be immune in the end.

[Arturo Sanchez]

However, I'm probably biased since I have a tendency to fly Galleons more often and resent being forced to switch from ships I want to fly by someone switching to Hwachafish on the other side.

Try doing some weird galleon builds with the express purpose of not being devoured by a hwachafish. Mino in particular while largely useless has an underrated niche of being able to knock a fish off angle just about anytime it wants. One of my personal favorites is Mino-Hwacha-Artemis - largely because of the artemis, but you can swap that out with something else as it's a bit risky to do (Hades w/ greased works well with mino here.) Just have to remember that despite all of this you will not be immune in the end.

Merc for shatter pierce to kill the enemy fish gun, Mino for extra pierce and shatter boop power and flak to kill upon hull break.

Requires a crew that has half a brain (if they can't shoot, no point bothering). But so easy to counter since its so specialised in killing goldfish and possibly pyra.

[BlackenedPies]

Try doing some weird galleon builds with the express purpose of not being devoured by a hwachafish. Mino in particular while largely useless has an underrated niche of being able to knock a fish off angle just about anytime it wants. One of my personal favorites is Mino-Hwacha-Artemis - largely because of the artemis, but you can swap that out with something else as it's a bit risky to do (Hades w/ greased works well with mino here.) Just have to remember that despite all of this you will not be immune in the end.

Taur-Hwatcha-Banshee my favorite for fighting fish