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Lower Goldfish hull health to 1000

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Unarmed Civilian:
Small nerf to reign in its general dominance. A lot of medium guns have been nerfed because of Goldfish making them OP, so it's probably the Goldfish that is OP. Just a bit.

This hull health brings it closer to the Spire (950) in numbers durability, though the fish will always be tankier due to having two people so close to the hull. The armor is never down for long on a Goldy. It also makes it easier to chip down a goldfish in a long chase while keeping its primary weakness of being rammed to death or overwhelming firepower.

Fun fact: If both the gunner and main engineer run to rebuild the hull at the same time, it takes the main engineer only 4 hits to rebuild (assuming 3 hits by gunner). It is 6 hits for a solo engineer. For comparison, the Pyramidion and Junker both take 9 hits to rebuild solo.

GurasOguras:


"Hurr durr let's nerf the fish because I don't like the numbers."
I am sorry to say that, but you've triggered me, comrade :>

Exactly because of the low armor is why we need to have that additional permahull for being able to sustain the heavy combat. I bet you just looked at the numbers, did some math and thought that goldfishes are OP, just and only because you need that additional few mortar shots to take it down. The Metamidion is already a counter to goldfish. Imagine how terrible it would be if instead of 2 clips you'd need only 1 to kill a ship which main role is to support the team. I am telling you: That would ruin the both the pub match and competitive balance, so plz no.

As a guy with years of competitive level experience in this game, I can assure you that the experience stands behind my back. And maybe I'm not the authority to many of you since my number of matches are not as high as some of the Rydr individuals, but I really know what I'm talking about.


--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on November 17, 2016, 12:57:15 pm ---it's probably the Goldfish Hwacha that is OP. Just a bit.

--- End quote ---
Fixed that for you.

It's totally not like carrofish is so shit now that taking heavy flak seems like a more reasonable choice (It still isn't, lol). Every single fish that does not include a hwacha on it has just no use in a high-level match. It's totally not like Hwacha has the most utility of the medium/heavy guns so it's favored on that ship which is heavily relying on the front gun.


--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on November 17, 2016, 12:57:15 pm ---Fun fact: If both the gunner and main engineer run to rebuild the hull at the same time, it takes the main engineer only 4 hits to rebuild (assuming 3 hits by gunner). It is 6 hits for a solo engineer. For comparison, the Pyramidion and Junker both take 9 hits to rebuild solo.

--- End quote ---
#THEYDIDTHEMATH :O

It's not like the armor for the goldfish is almost half of the Junker. It totally won't go down in few Gatling shots if still under fire. It's not like Pyra/Junker's hull is also accessible by most of the crew. When it comes to tanking the Pyramidion and especially the Junker can hold up for much much longer than the fish. Listen, comrade: There is a reason we take light flak instead of mortar when we fight the Goldfish/Squid team composition. I'd suggest realizing why.
No personal offense was intended during construction of this post


--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on November 17, 2016, 12:57:15 pm ---weakness of being rammed to death
--- End quote ---
LOL


--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on November 17, 2016, 12:57:15 pm ---A lot of medium guns have been nerfed

--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on November 17, 2016, 12:57:15 pm ---so it's probably the Goldfish that is OP

--- End quote ---

Unarmed Civilian:
Jesus Christ, no wonder so many people abandoned this game.

Saying offense is intended does not mean it does not offend. If anything it points out how offensive it is.

I brought this up in light of the change to the Squid, which is countered most by the Goldfish, and the recent change to the Mobula, which was strong against the Goldfish.

I also wanted to free up design space for powerful medium guns for the Spire and Galleon, since the Goldfish has historically been the most effective at utilizing close-range heavy guns.

MightyKeb:
I feel like both of you are on the wrong foot here.



--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on November 17, 2016, 03:39:26 pm ---Jesus Christ, no wonder so many people abandoned this game.

--- End quote ---

This isn't really the reason but I'll assume you're being rhetoric.


--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on November 17, 2016, 03:39:26 pm ---Saying offense is intended does not mean it does not offend. If anything it points out how offensive it is.

--- End quote ---

But it's always up to the individual (you) to be offended. I think you're misassuming his intentions because you're prone to taking his odd approach to the conversation seriously.


I'm not a fish expert, but I think the ship is just fine. Your later comments are what really brought me here:



--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on November 17, 2016, 03:39:26 pm ---I brought this up in light of the change to the Squid, which is countered most by the Goldfish, and the recent change to the Mobula, which was strong against the Goldfish.

--- End quote ---

Well, the interesting thing here is that overtime it was realized by the competitive community that taking squid agains't a fish =/= instant loss, and that a hwachafish in particular could 1v1 a lot of the meta mobulas you see today and some others, but results vary depending on the build. I won't deny that fish specifically has some advantages agains't a squid matchup.


Speaking of, the change to the squid is a bit too heavy. The thing about squid is it doesn't have the speed to dodge damage, but it has enough to avoid gun arcs and kite. The previous squid was fine because the high hull let you commit to some engagements where staying for a kill mattered and had to be done. This made it much alike to the pyra at times, but it's either that or it gets a boost in firepower to burst people down before it's squashed. (Or some other changes that I'll end up describing shortly)

I was personally interested in the dev app changes when squid's hull was pulled down to 650 simply because even though manouverability was kept the same, the armor was increased to keep the ratio between two values even. This is kind of a lazy way to balance the squid and it's been in effect for the past one or two years (see: 950 hull squid) but it's worked very well so far because it provides a cushion for those times where squid is supposed to avoid damage but just can't because it's not quite there in terms of being a real mosquito. It wasn't infinite and managing that resource was possibly paramount to flying it agains't good teams.  In-comes the real patch though, and this hull/armor ratio is completely thrown out of the window and squid still isn't fast enough to make it worth being that squishy.

-- In short, I understand your concern that the squid changes might hurt it too much agains't the un-nerfed goldfish, but I assure you that's more of a case of squid being underwhelming right now than fish being good. Mobula has also kept the throne for vertical mobility after the changes, and it's still pretty damn good.



--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on November 17, 2016, 03:39:26 pm ---I also wanted to free up design space for powerful medium guns for the Spire and Galleon, since the Goldfish has historically been the most effective at utilizing close-range heavy guns.

--- End quote ---

Actually, back when heavy flak used to be more or less overpowered it was extremely common to see it on goldfishes aswell. I'm sure RearAdmiralZill would tell you a lot about that if you brought the notion to him. Lumberjack had no arming time back then aswell, I wouldnt know but it was probably good on goldfish aswell. Probably still is.

I'll tell you the thing Hwacha, Carronade and Flak shared in common with fish's history though (leaving out minotaur for obvious reasons)

Flak could shred armor aswell as hull.

Carronade could pop balloons from medium range, close range, aswell as disable anything but a main engine in one shot.

Hwacha right now has somewhat respectable armor shred, a helpful amount of explosive damage and instant disables several components.


From what I can see these guns were prized on the fish because they were so versatile they could make themselves self sufficient on a ship that could abuse them. If there was a self sufficient/versatile long range heavy gun that would still be pretty good on the fish, because you're flying around with this long range gun as one of the fastest ships in the game with the weirdest angles for the enemy to shoot your armor with.  Probably the better way to kill goldfish by design is to make all heavy guns unable to function well without the help of one another. There is some truth in goldfish being the best at utilizing close range heavy guns, but that's not necessarily a bad thing imo.

GurasOguras:

--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on November 17, 2016, 03:39:26 pm ---Saying no offense is intended does not mean it does not offend. If anything it points out how offensive it is.

--- End quote ---

I agree that my post might have included too little substantive content, but the phrase about no offense intended as stupid as it sounds, was actually true. I don't want to make a shitstorm out of this, and I am sorry if you felt like a kid on the beach whose sand castle got kicked by the bully. It's nothing personal but also, on the other hand, I wanted to highlight how I believe that you have no idea about what you're saying.


--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on November 17, 2016, 03:39:26 pm ---I brought this up in light of the change to the Squid, which is countered most by the Goldfish, and the recent change to the Mobula, which was strong against the Goldfish.

--- End quote ---
It's because goldfish is countered by disables and right now almost all Squids are gat+banshee, while Mobula usually has artemis-based build onboard. The builds and execution are what counters the goldfish, not the ships themselves.

If you're looking for a ship, that counters the Squid more than any other: Junker is what you're looking for, not the Goldfish. But that itself is not a reason for it to be nerfed.

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