Author Topic: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps  (Read 19958 times)

Offline Richard LeMoon

  • Muse Games
  • Salutes: 284
    • [Muse]
    • 33 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« on: November 13, 2016, 11:55:01 am »
What are thoughts on the epidemic of Retrieve spamming for faction points? I stopped even looking at the map after I was that idiot spamming his grinding in global yesterday. He is likely top leader of his faction for what is a straight up exploit.

My thought is to first off, make diminishing returns on people that spam the same custom maps. -N% per instance during a set time. So someone that plays Oblivion 5 times in 30 minutes will get 25% points. This will prevent the meta-grind of any mode.

The second is to think of ways to make the modes (Retrieve) less grind-worthy.

Thoughts?

Offline Solidusbucket

  • Member
  • Salutes: 93
    • [SkBo]
    • 29 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2016, 12:13:54 pm »
I don't see the issue with it. It is fun for some (many?) people to do things like that in game modes that is the world section for alliance (individual contribution for the greater good of the team/world progression). Why take that away? A better solution is to make matches that naturally take longer to be worth more points. Point redistribution so that their 20 minutes spent grinding (about 12,000 points if done right) is equal to someone elses points when they play assault or whatever takes that long.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 12:19:11 pm by Solidusbucket »

Offline GurasOguras

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 30
    • [GwTh]
    • 38 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2016, 01:06:13 pm »
Retrieve is and will be the fastest to complete game mode. It's a design issue.

Offline Lysanya

  • Member
  • Salutes: 18
    • [Sass]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • Lysanya's Twitch Channel
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2016, 01:16:11 pm »
What are thoughts on the epidemic of Retrieve spamming for faction points? I stopped even looking at the map after I was that idiot spamming his grinding in global yesterday. He is likely top leader of his faction for what is a straight up exploit.

My thought is to first off, make diminishing returns on people that spam the same custom maps. -N% per instance during a set time. So someone that plays Oblivion 5 times in 30 minutes will get 25% points. This will prevent the meta-grind of any mode.

The second is to think of ways to make the modes (Retrieve) less grind-worthy.

Thoughts?

I sent Muse the math on this at the tail end of Alliance Open Alpha.  With the new method I saw yesterday, my old report to them is obsolete, though I did warn them that Oblivion was the most reliable farm.  It's literally zero risk.

I'll have to send in the new math to them and show them that no other mode or map matters in regards to flipping the map.

Retrieve is and will be the fastest to complete game mode. It's a design issue.

100% this.

Offline Unarmed Civilian

  • Member
  • Salutes: 12
    • [◥ɸ◤]
    • 33 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2016, 01:29:58 pm »
I really hope the devs are more focused on making interesting and fun modes than on balancing the map interactions. I'm here to fly airships and have fun. If they're going to nerf rewards, they need to find ways to nerf the contribution to the map rather than slowing down the gameplay and making the game more of a grind.

I personally really miss the speedrun alpha. Right now Assault is like sieging 3 sentry nests in a row, especially since the refineries have so much health.

Offline Lysanya

  • Member
  • Salutes: 18
    • [Sass]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • Lysanya's Twitch Channel
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2016, 02:21:06 pm »
I really hope the devs are more focused on making interesting and fun modes than on balancing the map interactions. I'm here to fly airships and have fun. If they're going to nerf rewards, they need to find ways to nerf the contribution to the map rather than slowing down the gameplay and making the game more of a grind.

I personally really miss the speedrun alpha. Right now Assault is like sieging 3 sentry nests in a row, especially since the refineries have so much health.

It's not nerfing rewards for everyone.  It's only that one mode gives significantly more rewards over time (and it's not even close) than any other modes.  It just needs to be brought back in line with the other modes, that's all.

Offline Richard LeMoon

  • Muse Games
  • Salutes: 284
    • [Muse]
    • 33 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2016, 02:54:08 pm »
When you have half of the running Retrieve matches locked, 1 ship, all AI on Oblivion, no one is having fun. It is pure grind.

Offline Solidusbucket

  • Member
  • Salutes: 93
    • [SkBo]
    • 29 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2016, 02:59:36 pm »
When you have half of the running Retrieve matches locked, 1 ship, all AI on Oblivion, no one is having fun. It is pure grind.

the player doing it is having fun. . .


I'm biased as fuck btw. I was trying to figure out a way to do it on Hell consistently. I was having fun.

Offline Unarmed Civilian

  • Member
  • Salutes: 12
    • [◥ɸ◤]
    • 33 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2016, 05:13:56 pm »
the player doing it is having fun. . .


I'm biased as fuck btw. I was trying to figure out a way to do it on Hell consistently. I was having fun.

It's the most fun solo mission in Alliance, in my opinion. Largely because it's the only one that is speed based. If it wasn't fun at all, people would not be grinding it over and over.

They should make a leaderboard for fastest solo runs of this.

Offline Richard LeMoon

  • Muse Games
  • Salutes: 284
    • [Muse]
    • 33 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2016, 06:12:50 pm »
It's the most fun solo mission in Alliance, in my opinion. Largely because it's the only one that is speed based. If it wasn't fun at all, people would not be grinding it over and over.

They should make a leaderboard for fastest solo runs of this.

Sure, it is fun to do a few times. Then it becomes a Skinner Box being used to beat the other people also grinding it for points on the map. Remove all points given for 1v Oblivion and see how many people still do it. That is a great solution for now.

Anyways, I beat it in 2:23 seconds in a Galleon with a half nub crew. My crew were silent for a moment, then... "What? I mean what?? Was that it? What?" I agreed. It was lame and boring. Race to point A. Kill one ship. Grab cargo. Win game. It is sooooooooooooooo easy to do, and takes almost no skill. I could teach a 1 match pilot to do it.

My personal favorite thing to do solo is take a silly build like a Lumberfish, and beat Assault on hard or hell. Something that is actually a challenge to my piloting skills.

If you want to pretend this is not about the points, go ahead and feed the delusion. Fill up your points, and keep doing it without spending anything. Let those extra points get wasted. See how fun it stays.

Offline MightyKeb

  • Member
  • Salutes: 78
    • [GwTh]
    • 38 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2016, 06:42:25 pm »
It's the most fun solo mission in Alliance, in my opinion. Largely because it's the only one that is speed based. If it wasn't fun at all, people would not be grinding it over and over.

They should make a leaderboard for fastest solo runs of this.

Sure, it is fun to do a few times. Then it becomes a Skinner Box being used to beat the other people also grinding it for points on the map. Remove all points given for 1v Oblivion and see how many people still do it. That is a great solution for now.

Anyways, I beat it in 2:23 seconds in a Galleon with a half nub crew. My crew were silent for a moment, then... "What? I mean what?? Was that it? What?" I agreed. It was lame and boring. Race to point A. Kill one ship. Grab cargo. Win game. It is sooooooooooooooo easy to do, and takes almost no skill. I could teach a 1 match pilot to do it.

My personal favorite thing to do solo is take a silly build like a Lumberfish, and beat Assault on hard or hell. Something that is actually a challenge to my piloting skills.

If you want to pretend this is not about the points, go ahead and feed the delusion. Fill up your points, and keep doing it without spending anything. Let those extra points get wasted. See how fun it stays.

I think retrieve in general has one big flaw that needs to be talked about - the fact that the convoys go to the bases -which you are supposed to deliver their cargo to. That's like an opposing footballer running back to their own goal.

Offline Unarmed Civilian

  • Member
  • Salutes: 12
    • [◥ɸ◤]
    • 33 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2016, 07:13:39 pm »
...

If you want to pretend this is not about the points, go ahead and feed the delusion. Fill up your points, and keep doing it without spending anything. Let those extra points get wasted. See how fun it stays.

okay.

By solo I literally mean just a pilot and 3 AI. Bring-your-own-buff edition.

I'm just saying it's a fast-paced mode, which I personally find fun, compared to how slow the others can be, and that if people are spamming it, lower the reward for it instead of trying to slow the mode down for the sake of slowing the mode down. Unless they think it is more fun if it is slowed down, or they want to overhaul it and it is consequently slowed down.

In other words, I want them to finish balancing out the gamemode for fun and only then worry about its contribution to the map that has literally no incentive to contribute towards other than having your name on a leaderboard that's wiped in about a week from now.

I wrote a big feedback thing and with a part about two mode ideas based on Retrieve that would both take longer to complete than the current Retrieve while making more sense story-wise. I brought up the story inconsistencies and suggested a change to it during the dev talks on Friday and got shot down. I'm one of the people who thinks it needs a total overhaul despite it being one of the more enjoyable modes for myself when things go as planned.


No need to be hostile.

Offline Naoura

  • Member
  • Salutes: 25
    • [Sass]
    • 31 
    • 45
    • 32 
    • View Profile
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2016, 08:52:50 pm »
There isn't much you can do to change Retrieve mode, due to it's speed, aside from making less rewarding like Richard is asking.

I would, however, offer an alternative: give different missions different weight.

Retrieve is a FAST mission, and, lorewise, it shouldn't give you much, as you're only keeping what you already had. Give it a lower base value, and that will make spamming it less rewarding.

Assault is a slower mission, but it is, lorewise, much more effective against the enemy. They are losing major amounts of resources, and plenty of materiél. That is important for your war effort. Give it more weight.

Survival is it's own beast, and I personally think it's a horrific waste of the name. It's a modified Assault, and I dislike it. You should be surviving for a time limit, or at least a wave limit, with progressively harder and harder enemy wave. Lorewise, you would be intercepting an enemy invasion fleet, ahead of your faction's main fleet. Victory would cut one of their assaults down to nothing, and would be useful for your side. Not as useful, so I would give it a moderate weight for war-score, but it should offer a higher war-chest, for a bounty on enemy ships killed.

This brings us to Defense, which I think should have the highest War-score reward. It rightfully should be a little slower, and rightfully should be challenging, but not as uselessly difficult as it is. A major invasion is being sent at this Geothermal plant. You are the only one's stopping it. That is huge. It should be one of the more difficult modes, and it's war-score reward should have much higher weight.

Offline Daft Loon

  • Member
  • Salutes: 47
    • [◕_◕]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2016, 09:12:07 pm »
I like the idea of making the differing mode lengths an intentional thing and scaling the map points accordingly. It makes sense from another perspective too - wanting to pick a long or short match based on how much time you want to spend playing at that moment.

Offline Solidusbucket

  • Member
  • Salutes: 93
    • [SkBo]
    • 29 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Diminishing returns on custom Alliance maps
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2016, 09:57:38 pm »
Yea, diminishing returns isnt the right answer. Scing the points is, though. I like the lore idea thing a couple posts up.