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Fynx:
What do you mean by an unorthodox match Pies? Does it require creative loadouts or creative tactics or combinations of these both?
We have few regular functions that ships have (+ combinations):
- disable/piercing
- piercing/explosive
- mines as chaos inducer or support
- blending
(Unless I forgot something)
I included mines here simply because many teams have been using mines more or less effectively for a long time now. Also one of mobulas that Daniel likes, that was not mentioned by you in the 'unorthodox' category uses a minelauncher as a primary weapon.
Ship loadouts can be
1. Meta
2. Not meta but utilising functions above
3. Original loadouts with potential (few and far in between)
4. Original loadouts without potential (those are more popular)
I'm quite amazed you put the piercing mobula that Daniel created into the 3. category. Other than having more piercing than other ships it would be a perfectly normal ship, if not for the non-trivial tactics included.
Other than that, people that don't bring meta loadouts almost always bring either ships from 2. category (and win or lose) or 4. category (that requires to be carried by the other ship).
Loadouts from 3. category are also usually very difficult to implement. I've experimented with a certain merc squid that required better pilot/crew coordination than one we had to make it a regular competitive loadout (possibly more practice). I myself attempted to use Daniel's piercing mobula, succeeding only to some extend, lacking the loadout understanding that Daniel has.
Sometimes these loadouts work only with a specific ally ship and require flawless coordination. A question arises: 'Then why not put them against some less meta loadouts so they can practice?'
It's an invalid question. If those ships don't work against meta initially, only practice against meta can make it so.
I do not know what to think of ships utilising minotaur, I consider them to be in any category outside meta.
In my opinion, far more interesting than specific loadouts are tactics employed. Watching a perfectly valid ship (meta or not) that does weird things together with his ally is much more entertaining than watching a non-standard ship pretending to be meta and doing the exactly same thing a meta ship would do, just not as effectively.
Also, there's plenty of loadouts that could work against meta, but opponents see that they can hardcounter those ships and they bring the hardest hardcounter possible, proudly proving their knowledge of hardcounters. And that's not the issue with the event being more or less competitive, but competely hopeless notion that the lobby is a place to gain advantage over the enemy at any cost rather than negotiate match-up teams are comfortable with. No, I will not agree that it's a problem with the event being competitive, it happens all the time in pubs. And meta ships can also be countered.
That's quite a long post I produced here, I hope it explains some aspects of what Thomas wrote:
--- Quote from: Thomas on January 16, 2016, 11:56:26 pm ---Odd ship loadouts and tactics pop up pretty commonly in SCS, it's a great field for experimenting in. They generally don't do that well, but once in a very blue moon there's an interesting outcome. Some people take it more seriously than others of course, and they're generally going to win.
--- End quote ---
BlackenedPies:
You expect Daniel to bring a mine mob on Paritan against brawl ships, but not against double meta junker (which he has done). The piercing mob is unorthodox because it has little disable (merc), low explosive (banshee), and restrictive arcs. There's no meta that uses a similar tactic, and few could tell you how to use it. I believe it's called the Fancy Fairy and I haven't seen it in a long time. One of my go-to brawl mobs is hades, greased banshee gat left, burst flak and top flame right. It's not a meta but you know exactly how it works. You might say it's a bit unorthodox to put a buff greased engi on the top
There was another Daniel mob more recently, I now recall, that used two gats and rammed a lot. I don't remember the other guns but I'd probably call it unorthodox
The minotaur is unorthodox only because people don't use it. Fish are the most vulnerable ship against the taur and spire is the best platform for it against fish. It wouldn't be strange to see a taur spire against a fish, except for the fact that people don't bring it. The one time I remember seeing a taur spire was from the Predators who were promptly stomped by meta ships
It's not just about seeing non-standard builds, but about the ships on both teams. I rarely see it at the upper level. The Predators have tried experimenting, but I don't remember being very successful because the opponents went meta. I won't argue semantics because I'm probably wrong, but I am genuinely asking when the last unorthodox matchup was (I wanna watch it). I see it more often in other tournaments and I assume that's because SCS is more competitive
--- Quote ---In my opinion, far more interesting than specific loadouts are tactics employed. Watching a perfectly valid ship (meta or not) that does weird things together with his ally is much more entertaining than watching a non-standard ship pretending to be meta and doing the exactly same thing a meta ship would do, just not as effectively.
--- End quote ---
Can you give an example?
Fynx:
--- Quote from: BlackenedPies on January 17, 2016, 02:12:25 pm ---Can you give an example?
--- End quote ---
Just take two ships that are both useful in competitive, but it doesn't look like they fit each other.
I remember taking a squid (artemis gatling, but that could be a simple kill squid just as well) together with Daniel's long range galleon against Muse (that was actually a pretty mixed team) in B&B (Dunes). It was a hwachafish/lumberfish team so there were three fast and manouverable ships and one slow that had to position before engaging. That galleon was actually pretty unorthodox itself, but it's the idea of long range galleon and close range squid trying to coordinate effectively that you won't see very often in meta games.
Something about June or July we teamed up with Bards for the SCS. We took a blendersquid / blenderfish (nanoduckling) setup against Skyborne with hwachafish and hwachagalleon. Double blender setup is sort of interesting, but valid for close range maps. It's not really valid for long range maps against ships with lots of firepower, but the match-up itself was very entertaining and the result was 3-3 after a long fight.
At some point, being a little bit bored with competitive with not too many teams playing, I started taking mine squids in close range maps as chaos generators. Pairing that ship with a hwachafish resulted in aggressive matches that were quite different from any others. But I guess using mines offensively in close range maps is a popular idea nowadays, so maybe it's not worth mentioning.
I'm afraid I won't be able to say much about matches I did not participate in those last few months. Connection issues do not let me watch much during the competitive events, it's also the reason why I don't fly competitively anymore. I'm pretty sure that some unorthodox matches happen occasionally though. And there's still more variety than what was happening in the pyramidion era, back when Skrimskraw and Velvet were the organisers. There were at least 2 pyras per match on the average.
nhbearit:
Skies will define unorthodox setups as he sees fit. No reason to attack him for it. If you feel your builds are "unorthodox" then good for you. If you want to discuss the meta, start a new thread for it. Or revive an old one, either way. Until then:
--- Quote from: Dementio on January 13, 2016, 12:26:55 pm ---I get the feeling that people are reading too much into this.
--- End quote ---
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