I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...

[compleatnewb]

there it is again. That social stigma that vets  are just conscripted teachers.

No. You play the game or you leave. Its the fact that they don't PLAY the game is exactly why people leave. I refuse to hold baby's lil hands and make him feel like a special little flower. No. You play the game like you're meant to play.

You play or you lose. You learn by going by how the veteran tells you to play and then guess what happens. That hwacha suddenly completely disables the enemy ship. You get that hull break from that side gat and you get that kill shot from that 2nd hwacha volley on your fish.

I will teach those who I feel have the potential to be excellent players and those that aren't are just training dummies to my recruits. I've been around novices and memorised every noob excuse to know which are the type to nurture, BUT I SHOULD NOT HAVE THE OBLIGATION/EXPECTATION to do so.

Non sequitur?  Only a veteran can teach you how to kill with a goldfish, but veterans shouldn't have to teach....

This is a hard game to learn.  If you do the whole tutorial, you come out as a level 5 engineer.  So few do that, and those that do still don't know how to kill with goldfish; or know the gun/damage combinations, or effective repair patterns, or any of the other tricks that you can only get by some veteran sharing that information with you.

And these little bits of information stack and seem to have multiplicative effects.  If a player learns a couple of these tricks, then all of sudden they can win against the novices.  Which feels immensely gratifying, especially after the hour long grinds of preserverance that they endured in novice only matches.  When they learn that knowledge wins games, they stack lobbies and play lots of stomp matches.

I think this is also why veteran matches have not become more of thing.  People finally reach veteran level, feel good because they can crush the regular players, but end up getting totally stomped by a full lobby of triple 45's.  That's either because they are still missing some more critical bits that only other veterans can give, or they rediscover how hard the game still is when played against other players who also know what they are doing; (or at least know the same tricks as you).  (And I'll be the first to admit that I'm still learning how to play this game).

This game gets known for its awesome community.  And the community fights hard to preserve that.  I think the teaching element is a fundamental part of that.  Because, let's face it, it's currently the only way to make the game better for everyone.

[FranckM]

If any newer player is reading this I would like to have their input on this. Since they might see it differently than us.

[Mean Machine]

...

It is NOT a hard game to learn at all. It's actually very simple and not complicated or even complex. Sure, if you want to be extremely good gunner for example, you will have to practice with all the weapons. But the basics to learn to be decent player are extremely easy and can be learned in couple of matches if you pay attention. Engineer only has to learn how to use tools, which is simple as it can gets. Gunner only need to learn what each ammo type does and what each weapons does. Pilot takes a little bit more to get into, that's why I agree the class should be locked behind at least 100 matches.

Also, many of you are saying that they need to do better tutorials... Maybe, but I doubt it would really help much, like I already said in my first post. I don't think many people even feel happy about doing current tutorial, let alone a longer one with more information, which would be even easier to forget after few minutes. Easiest and most effective way to learn is to join experienced captain that communicates with crew. And even if captain doesn't communicate, you can still see what's going on if you pay attention and you see how rotation works, what guns are shooting when and how enemy dies.

I agree with Maximillian about vet and novice matches being quite useless. We have small playerbase and we want them all in same lobbies, BUT we need to give newbies a reason to learn the game. Reasons like locking pilot class behind achievement for example. They have a goal to achieve, they need to learn how to play in order to be effective and achieve their goal. Too bad we don't have more cosmetic stuff as rewards. I mean, don't get me wrong, there are a lot of stuff that we have right now, but I'm thinking something like skins for guns and engineer tools. Lot of people go nuts for skins and they would work for them. Imagine getting nice skin for your artemis after you successfuly destroy 500 components. This is just an example obviously, just to make a point. Right now we get rewards for leveling which is ok, but it allows people to play however they want, who cares, as long as i get to that level to get that reward... (I doubt many newbies know how XP works and how to get it fast.)

I know you apologized Schwalbe, but I'll say it anyway. Every time I've crewed for BlackenedPies he was very friendly to newbies and crew in general, giving them clear instructions and a lot of helpful tips. I don't believe I have crewed for a captain that would do better job at managing his crew than Blackened.

[Arturo Sanchez]

there it is again. That social stigma that vets  are just conscripted teachers.

No. You play the game or you leave. Its the fact that they don't PLAY the game is exactly why people leave. I refuse to hold baby's lil hands and make him feel like a special little flower. No. You play the game like you're meant to play.

You play or you lose. You learn by going by how the veteran tells you to play and then guess what happens. That hwacha suddenly completely disables the enemy ship. You get that hull break from that side gat and you get that kill shot from that 2nd hwacha volley on your fish.

I will teach those who I feel have the potential to be excellent players and those that aren't are just training dummies to my recruits. I've been around novices and memorised every noob excuse to know which are the type to nurture, BUT I SHOULD NOT HAVE THE OBLIGATION/EXPECTATION to do so.

Non sequitur?  Only a veteran can teach you how to kill with a goldfish, but veterans shouldn't have to teach....

1. This is a hard game to learn.

2. People finally reach veteran level, feel good because they can crush the regular players, but end up getting totally stomped by a full lobby of triple 45's. That's either because they are still missing some more critical bits that only other veterans can give, or they rediscover how hard the game still is when played against other players who also know what they are doing; (or at least know the same tricks as you).  (And I'll be the first to admit that I'm still learning how to play this game).

3. This game gets known for its awesome community.  And the community fights hard to preserve that.  I think the teaching element is a fundamental part of that.  Because, let's face it, it's currently the only way to make the game better for everyone.

1. no. The bare bones tutorial if you pay attention to every piece of info given, gives you the basics of each class and the controls and the tools AND  believe it or not as of the most recent version of the tutorial the fundementals of ships building (hull break and explosive). And with just the tutorial alone, any vet will need to play you at mid lvl (goddamn pathetic how mid lvl is post tutorial frankly).

You can't make any excuse to any scrub that derps around clueless, the fundemental facts are all in the tutorial. If you don't do it nor pay full attention to it I'm not gonna hold your hand. Its your fault for skipping a step in the learning process and you are not worth the salt in my spit to teach if you can't even be bothered to do a tutorial that specially designed for teaching you.

2. That's muse's flawed leveling system at work. As of the current leveling system, you get retarded upstarts with no fundamentals as they rush leveling up abusing the current lvling system.

In the old system on average 1000 matches lands you lvl 6-7 (where 15 was the max). Now less than 800 you are max level.

3. I reiterate. I teach who I want to teach. I teach who are obviously worth my time. I'm not gonna teach every asshat who can't be bothered to learn some basics via the means given to them by the game.

[MightyKeb]

I think this is also why veteran matches have not become more of thing.  People finally reach veteran level, feel good because they can crush the regular players, but end up getting totally stomped by a full lobby of triple 45's.  That's either because they are still missing some more critical bits that only other veterans can give, or they rediscover how hard the game still is when played against other players who also know what they are doing; (or at least know the same tricks as you).  (And I'll be the first to admit that I'm still learning how to play this game).

If I recall correctly, the reason vet matches aren't used anymore is because muse has intentionally crippled it's efficiency by making it so that Custom vet matches cannot recruit from a vet queue. There aren't that many vets in the sea of new players, and much less who bother to get into the vet queue because of the potentially long wait times, whilst most of the time it takes even more time than MM's worst days to invite enough people to a custom made vet lobby. Having a custom vet lobby that could recruit from Vet Matchmaking is the most convenient option because it gives you the most control over setting it up - and that's crucial in a gamemode that only 1/3rd of the population will use. Until that's fixed we can't really blame the community on vet matches. I do see where you're coming from though, it's something I briefly experienced when I was about to level out of novice myself too, but it's something I've long forgotten about at this point.

[Byron Cavendish]

you just went full AWKM[/i][/size]

I can't describe how much I love this sentence. I will be using it from now on. Thank you.

[Schwalbe]

you just went full AWKM[/i][/size]

I can't describe how much I love this sentence. I will be using it from now on. Thank you.

Praised be the day I actually said something considered funny/accurate.



We all know, that new players MUST learn from more experienced ones to learn efficiently.

This doesn't imply veterans are obliged to teach them everytime, no matter what.
And this says the guy who usually starts with calm explanation, how things in this game work, not bashing people.

I just hate when people are supposed to not have choice ffs.

I know you apologized Schwalbe, but I'll say it anyway. Every time I've crewed for BlackenedPies he was very friendly to newbies and crew in general, giving them clear instructions and a lot of helpful tips. I don't believe I have crewed for a captain that would do better job at managing his crew than Blackened.

I'm not the guy who is firmly convined that apology is something that should automatically cancel any trial of bashing a mistake that deserves it. It was my mistake, and I have no bloody clue why I thought Blackened was behaving the other way. Which proves only how insane and delusional I'm becoming. As if I were completely sane at any given point of my pathetic existance

[UndyingUndyne]

If you guys really want to get rid of the "problem" of Novices, just get Muse to stop selling the game. Then there's no way a newbie can buy the game, skip the awful tutorials and/or have no other Novices to play and learn the basics with, then "ruin" the game for all you vets.

[Atruejedi]

If you guys really want to get rid of the "problem" of Novices, just get Muse to stop selling the game. Then there's no way a newbie can buy the game, skip the awful tutorials and/or have no other Novices to play and learn the basics with, then "ruin" the game for all you vets.

There's no problem with novices playing the game and ruining it for veterans; the problem is novices piloting the ships when unprepared and unready and ruining the game for everybody in the lobby. Damning his team to lose over and over again as he is bounced from side to side in a lobby and passively stacking the matches in the other team's favor...

Last night a guy named ChildishRambino was playing with me and his friend, who was absolutely new to the game: zero matches played. A fairly new captain himself, he's played with me before and knows I'm a good teacher when I have willing learners, and he dumped her into my lap / onto my ship in order for me to teach her the game. I asked if she played the tutorial. She, of course, did not, and admitted it, so I went over the basics with her and, lo and behold, she played all evening and did a GREAT job (for a scrub, of course ). She freely admitted to being overwhelmed at the beginning because the game is something that needs to be learned; information must be shared, for everybody's benefit. I think, as a human being (and not just one who plays video games), it IS the job of those who have experience (read: veterans) to pass on that knowledge to those who do not (read: nubs). To do otherwise is selfish and lazy.

We are a community; a community of gamers. We must do what is best for the community. What is best for the community? To prevent new players from piloting ships when they are not yet prepared to do so. I'll gladly sacrifice some newbie freedom for some lobby security. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa6c3OTr6yA

(excuse the video quality...)

[Mean Machine]

If you guys really want to get rid of the "problem" of Novices, just get Muse to stop selling the game. Then there's no way a newbie can buy the game, skip the awful tutorials and/or have no other Novices to play and learn the basics with, then "ruin" the game for all you vets.

Thanks for not contributing anything to the discussion.

[UndyingUndyne]

If you guys really want to get rid of the "problem" of Novices, just get Muse to stop selling the game. Then there's no way a newbie can buy the game, skip the awful tutorials and/or have no other Novices to play and learn the basics with, then "ruin" the game for all you vets.

Thanks for not contributing anything to the discussion.

Hey, I did a few pages back. Not sure if anyone payed it any mind, though.

But really, I still think locking out new players from a third of the game is really a harsh way to fix this problem. Like I said before, the devs should look into making the tutorials better. Unlike what I said before, however, there should be more incentive to actually do the tutorials as well, as part of the problem is people outright skipping it, and jumping into a match full of vets and piloting right off the bat.

The point is, the Devs and we as a community need to do a better job of getting Novices to learn piloting. I'm sure there are plenty of options, some of which have been mentioned already. But outright banning people from an entire class would only do more harm than good, and it's a rather extreme solution to take when other options exist.

[HamsterIV]

You chummed the waters Jedi. This is what you get.

For my part, there are some nights I feel like teaching, and some nights where I want to cause mayhem. On the mayhem nights if I get assigned a novice ship I leave it and start looking for friends to stack with.

As stated before I like your proposal, even if I am almost certain Muse will not implement it. I view occupying the commander slot as taking responsibility for the experience of 3 other people (assuming no AI crew). I don't want people taking the responsibility lightly or approaching it unprepared. No matter how funny they think it will look on YouTube later.

[Solidusbucket]

lightbulb


what if the tutorial continued into the actual match? A  set of tips that are triggered for specific events until a certain level is reached or it is manually turned off.

For instance - burning kerosine for x seconds causes a warning message about blowing up engines.

Too far from ally ship causes a warning message about considering staying closer

Exiting map area gives warning message about going off the map and to press M

Taking damage gives warning that they should fall back and find a place to facilitate repairs



This mid match tip box / tutorial / warnings could occur for each role.

just a though.

[Red-Xiii]

Ive been the noob.  Ive taught the noobs.  Im still learning from my own brotherhood.  No matter how many in here complain about novices flying, acting entitled to wreck novices, stack them, and not teach them is inappropriate at any time.   The game requires it.  Period.  Cannot be played and enjoyed by the masses if it is not done.  For example I just got wrecked several matches in a row by  SPQR while attempting to discuss things with a level 9 spire pilot.  It was good.  We discussed.  Learned.  The minute the match was over noone would be on his team.  Or co-captain.  The standard should be higher for this game and die hard player base.  Some long time pilots dont feel like teaching.  Fine.  Standown and let someone else on the crew do it.  Tell them little things at a time so they soak it in easier.  Dont need to explain a book.   If people dont wanna teach and just wanna wreck shit I dont think it should be against level 5 players or less.  Kinda seems pointless after the first game.  At least stay the next game and get on the same side.  Something.  Just imo.

I just realized reading my post that my mantra is "someone has to do it."   But if nobody does it where does that leave it?

[Arturo Sanchez]

If people dont wanna teach and just wanna wreck shit I dont think it should be against level 5 players or less.  Kinda seems pointless after the first game.  At least stay the next game and get on the same side.  Something.  Just imo.

I just realized reading my post that my mantra is "someone has to do it."   But if nobody does it where does that leave it?

There are CAs and novice mode for this exact purpose. But the system itself is flawed because match making is flawed and the current server browse doesn't cater for highly emphasising novice lobbies for novices.

Wherein TEACHERS actually exist there to TEACH.


If you walk into advanced, you better be ready to up your game. Same with vet game, I expect the absolute best out of anyone involved in a vet game. And if level 30 isn't enough to ready you for vet game, that too is the systems fault because a vet isn't some baby that grinded a single class to 30 and practically learned no advanced tactical awareness from said experience of grinding his puny 100 matches.