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I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...

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Hoja Lateralus:

--- Quote from: Jamini on March 08, 2016, 11:25:53 am ---I do still feel the tools already exist to avoid novice captains if one wants too. Vet games, comp games, and premades all exist already. Rather than adding more arbitrary barriers (which is a huge turn off for many people) I would prefer people focus on using the tools that already to exist to improve their experience.

--- End quote ---

Well, vet games happen very rarely, so it isn't of much use. I have the opposite impression - that noobs re everywhere, you can't run away from there. Quoting 40k codex: "They are coming to get us. Body, mind and soul."
Also in normal game a player having 1000-ish hours wouldn't be matched up with the one who has 100 hours. But GOIO isn't a normal game - it's a mess. And with 500ish (tops!) players online there is only so much you can do. I can't even imagine playing not in prime time.
I hope I'm wrong, but I think you're just an idealist who still has strenght to deal with that shit. From my experience everyone breaks sooner or later, in one way or another. Take for instance nanoduckling who devoted whole clan to teaching new players and he got discouraged pretty fast (God knows he tried).
In order to have 'fun' games vets can't play with noobs/novice players. It's not fun for new players who are scared and on position of an underdog and it's not fun for vets, because they either stomp the shit out of them and win 5-0 in matter of minutes or they try to find a way to limit themselves to try to give novice a chance. The second option can be fun once in a while, but not every match. Fun match is when you give your 100%, enemies give their 100% and it ends up in a close 4-5. So I'd say it's the opposite of what you say - vets can't play with themselves in peace and novice can't play with themselves in peace.

Solidusbucket:
Oh right. Back on topic.

Not sure if my opinion is different now than before but i kinda disagree with the idea. I have been watching / playing with some awesome (relatively) novice pilots this week.

nanoduckling:
So long as it can be turned off or circumvented I'm fine with it. I admire Jamini's goals, but I do think he is living in a Rousseauian fantasy. True, most people aren't intentionally malicious, but a majority are very good at rationalizing their crappy behaviour and many are too stupid to recognize the ways they are stupid. This applies to novices in video games just as much as it does elsewhere.

There is nothing to be done with asshats and trolls, they will ruin your day whatever technical approaches you take (although I do wish Muse was a bit more aggressive with the ban-hammer). The problem is novices have no idea about what being a pilot means. The game doesn't warn them that taking the pilot slot without knowing what you are doing is a dick move. They aren't informed what the normal responsibilities of taking that slot are. It isn't shocking they don't live up to those responsibilities.

In my ideal world we would have various warning that would pop up that you could disable alerting novices when they are about to be an ass. The loadout recommendation screen should tell you that you are expected to accept the loadout. The equipment selection screen should warn you if you try to take anything other than a spy-glass as a crew member. Similarly for gunner and anything other than taking a spanner or wrench. It should warn you if you try to take lochnager as an engineer. It should warn you if you build one of the common questionable builds (all explosive damage or a flak fish). It should warn them that the harpoon is broken. And it should warn you if you click that pilots wheel.

At the moment Muse are de facto asking vet players to do things the game could very easily automated because the game provides novices with close to zero information. Worse the game doesn't create a culture of informed responsibility for novices. You wouldn't captain a football team when you don't understand the offside rule because everyone would call you an arrogant ass. Yet because novices are uninformed and lazy (you know, because they are human) they frequently take on the responsibilities of the captains chair.

I'd emphasize something about Mr.Disasters comments regarding my novice clan efforts. While it was sucking the fun out of the game for me, this wasn't what caused the failure of that project. Ultimately I believe the reason that project failed was because I identified a niche that didn't exist. Good novices were getting gobbled up by the existing clans and nurtured. I built something specifically designed to do what other clans were already effectively doing. And they were offering other things as well like a sense of community and an ethos beyond "don't be an ass". I'm not saying that the way the community interfaces with novices is perfect, but I will say that it is sufficiently the good that polite, responsive novices have many, many options and didn't need another one.

It is the novices that cannot reason out their responsibilities that need help, and since most humans are pretty crappy that is the majority of new players. Most aren't assholes. Most also don't think about if their actions harm others. Of course if they didn't understand their responsibilities they weren't eligible for the clan I created making it useless to them. I don't know what, if anything, the community can do to address this problem without more support from Muse.

That's why I want  this feature and I'd prefer it be possible to disable it. For me this is about ingraining a culture among novices that the pilot slot carries with it certain responsibilities. It isn't about restricting novices choices, it is about getting them to think before they play out their naive sky captain fantasies at everyone else's expense.

Kamoba:
Nano to the point and detailed, I don't disagree, but I will point out why I think an automated system may not work too well, using an ingame comparison we already have...

New players start new games on different frames of mind which can be grouped into three seperate categories...

The casuals (I started as this breed.)
Buying the game off sale or on sale purely based on when they come across it and liking the look of the game, the casual joins often with the "just here to have fun" motto, not putting too much effort into reading guides or other community provides information and sticking to default loadouts (which when I started were pretty crap considering flamer was OP and no default had chem.) While playing without organisation or much awareness, as crew The Casual may be pretty effective at keeping a ship alive, but more often than not there is not enough shooting being done to snag a win. A casual pilot often being the kind of person who communicates with their ally a bit but easily gets side tracked "omg a snowman! Let's look for more!" Even in the middle of a fire fight, casuals often learn after a few games and once they meet someone they get on well with, or someone they decide they have to beat, will start researching or join a group of other casuals in increasing effectiveness and happiness.

The "Try Hards" joining the game often because it is Player vs Player, the Try Hards often come with a competitive edge, reading before they buy, knowing the game basics before they do the tutorials, and often joining with a group of friends who also do the same, they come across as silent in game, mostly because they're linked on Skype or a VOIP to communicate, often leaving them unable to comm with take pilots. These are often the ones who integrate into the community or stick to their small group until they have gotten their money's worth of the game.

The "PITA. (Pains in the Arse.)" very often these are the people who purchase on a sale, they follow the big YouTuber names and snatch up games from sales often, these "PITA" are often the trouble makers for a variety of reasons and could easily earn sub categories on their own such as Trolls, Swearers and Ignorers and more..  The PITA are typically the bulk of new players, not all are Pains on purpose or with intent, but their lack of communication or team orientation often makes them more a nuisance than they may intend to be...
And it is the PITA category I want to focus on..

When new players join Guns they're given the option to play through the tutorials and then to join "Novice" matches, and many PITA will take offence to the Novice title, a fine example is the recent (and largely hated by fans and non-fans alike) JonTron video, in which he actually points out the Novice tag and says "This is here to say I suck and show everyone else I suck."
It is this mentality, this taking offence to a Word not intended to offend, which makes creating in game systems to teach and help new players hard..
The simple taking offence to being referred to as a Novice is why many Novice players opt out of Novice.. "I'm no skrub! I 360noscope in COD and CSGO Yo! Imma Boss!" Or "Well I read about the game, we all have access to the same stuff so how bad can it be? This Novice thing is pointless!"

So let's assume all the warnings and pop ups are added, it is more likely to offend the bulk of new players (PITA) than help them teach, and since so many of them take offence to just the word Novice, imagine the rage if they were reminded every ship until level X "Hey, you sure you want to pilot? You're still pretty new.."

That took longer to write up than I thought it would.. Hopefully it gets to the point though...

Many players take offence to being called a Novice or suggested to do the tutorials because they think Vets can carry them or don't realise how big an impact their actions on a ship, whatever the role will make...

nanoduckling:
I think you have identified an important point Kam, such a system needs to inform without patronizing, which I will admit is a difficult task.

Some things would be easy to do without being patronizing though. A screen which pops up when you select an inappropriate tool and tells you "Lochnager ammo breaks guns when it is fired, as such it is largely useless for engineers [Disable this message in future X]" or "The harpoon is currently a weapon in progress, and is not combat effective. We are testing ways to improve it in the Dev App [Disable this message in future X]" shouldn't offend anyone bar the completely insane.

Others are admittedly harder, but even an offensive message which has the player think about their responsibilities to others might be better than what we have now. Certainly I feel there are little things that could be done easily, and bigger things that might be harder to do that might be worthwhile.

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