AI spots

[Newbluud]

I've never seen a successful ambush that's so slow that the few seconds of being shot stops it dead in its tracks.


Ambushes involve kero, ram and losing of arcs and completely out of control of ambushee to counter unless countered by setting up their own trap (common AI clan tactic is something we like to call tag eight).
By the time a target has reached 500m of you, the ambush is already in motion.

and if that "ambush" is in direct arcs of the ship's primary guns (AI dont shoot targets not in arc), then that my boy is called an idiot calling his suicide an "ambush."

I disagree. With proper communication, it's often a good idea to keep within the clouds, allow the enemies to be weakened or turned away from you by your ally, prior to you going all out stamina+kero+fire at will. Thing is, you position up, your ally has to distract etc, but your flanking position is already given away by the AI firing gat at a ship that is invisible to all human players. I'm not talking about charging into the main arcs of a ship willy-nilly. Don't patronise me to think that I'm that stupid. It's a case of being disallowed to bide your time within a cloud waiting for the opportune moment as enemies turn to focus your ally as they commit. 

Ambush vs people that camp pipes is one where this is valid. Especially when running kill squid, my current favourite ship to fly, there's that element of being selective with my engagements and disengagements. A good ambush can be started and finished with a very small distance compared to the more sluggish ships. I've had AI crew ruin this by tipping the enemy off to our position prior to our engagement. This means my ally's commitment becomes an obvious ploy to get me the kite+kill and the entire set up was pointless, thus I can be suppressed and the campers get to camp away.

It's a tiny thing, but it's happened a couple of times. It's enough to annoy me when it happens, but not enough to be game breaking. As said before, real matches don't have AIs as part of them.

[Arturo Sanchez]

I've never seen a successful ambush that's so slow that the few seconds of being shot stops it dead in its tracks.


Ambushes involve kero, ram and losing of arcs and completely out of control of ambushee to counter unless countered by setting up their own trap (common AI clan tactic is something we like to call tag eight).
By the time a target has reached 500m of you, the ambush is already in motion.

and if that "ambush" is in direct arcs of the ship's primary guns (AI dont shoot targets not in arc), then that my boy is called an idiot calling his suicide an "ambush."

I disagree. With proper communication, it's often a good idea to keep within the clouds, allow the enemies to be weakened or turned away from you by your ally, prior to you going all out stamina+kero+fire at will. Thing is, you position up, your ally has to distract etc, but your flanking position is already given away by the AI firing gat at a ship that is invisible to all human players. I'm not talking about charging into the main arcs of a ship willy-nilly. Don't patronise me to think that I'm that stupid. It's a case of being disallowed to bide your time within a cloud waiting for the opportune moment as enemies turn to focus your ally as they commit. 

Ambush vs people that camp pipes is one where this is valid. Especially when running kill squid, my current favourite ship to fly, there's that element of being selective with my engagements and disengagements. A good ambush can be started and finished with a very small distance compared to the more sluggish ships. I've had AI crew ruin this by tipping the enemy off to our position prior to our engagement. This means my ally's commitment becomes an obvious ploy to get me the kite+kill and the entire set up was pointless, thus I can be suppressed and the campers get to camp away.

It's a tiny thing, but it's happened a couple of times. It's enough to annoy me when it happens, but not enough to be game breaking. As said before, real matches don't have AIs as part of them.

You either initiate an ambush or you don't.

You bide your time from a safe distance (way out of range), but if you are in effective range you have two choices, run or commit.

I'm more of a goldfish pilot than a squid pilot but the principles are similar. You move out of enemy arc and blast away to either make a pilot turn your direction or be seen in plain sight to kite them into a waiting ally (or immobilise them for the kill, but thats more a goldfish tactic since puny squids are puny). Shooting them while hiding in a cloud is either done as a sniper ship hiding 1km away or at the very LEAST 500+m away. Or you're a mobile ship in transition to position into blind spot of a less mobile ship, whereupon hiding in said cover in effective range is a moot point as you have the speed to rapidly get out of arc by rapidly retreat or flying straight by the enemy ship. And in either action you wouldn't be shot that badly before you get into blind spot giving you time to recover.

Whatever the case by the time you're in effective range you're already committed into combat because any vet worth their title knows to not let you escape unscathed and won't be that easily tricked when you're hiding in plain sight using clouds as cover while in effective arcs and range of the guns.

Don't just hide in clouds assuming you won't be seen and shot. None of us here are dumb enough to fall for such a flimsy trick.


when given a choice of approaching the front while in clouds or in plain sight from the rear. The latter is much safer in the first place.

[MightyKeb]

I've never seen a successful ambush that's so slow that the few seconds of being shot stops it dead in its tracks.


Ambushes involve kero, ram and losing of arcs and completely out of control of ambushee to counter unless countered by setting up their own trap (common AI clan tactic is something we like to call tag eight).
By the time a target has reached 500m of you, the ambush is already in motion.

and if that "ambush" is in direct arcs of the ship's primary guns (AI dont shoot targets not in arc), then that my boy is called an idiot calling his suicide an "ambush."

I disagree. With proper communication, it's often a good idea to keep within the clouds, allow the enemies to be weakened or turned away from you by your ally, prior to you going all out stamina+kero+fire at will. Thing is, you position up, your ally has to distract etc, but your flanking position is already given away by the AI firing gat at a ship that is invisible to all human players. I'm not talking about charging into the main arcs of a ship willy-nilly. Don't patronise me to think that I'm that stupid. It's a case of being disallowed to bide your time within a cloud waiting for the opportune moment as enemies turn to focus your ally as they commit. 

Ambush vs people that camp pipes is one where this is valid. Especially when running kill squid, my current favourite ship to fly, there's that element of being selective with my engagements and disengagements. A good ambush can be started and finished with a very small distance compared to the more sluggish ships. I've had AI crew ruin this by tipping the enemy off to our position prior to our engagement. This means my ally's commitment becomes an obvious ploy to get me the kite+kill and the entire set up was pointless, thus I can be suppressed and the campers get to camp away.

It's a tiny thing, but it's happened a couple of times. It's enough to annoy me when it happens, but not enough to be game breaking. As said before, real matches don't have AIs as part of them.

You either initiate an ambush or you don't.

You bide your time from a safe distance (way out of range), but if you are in effective range you have two choices, run or commit.

I'm more of a goldfish pilot than a squid pilot but the principles are similar. You move out of enemy arc and blast away to either make a pilot turn your direction or be seen in plain sight to kite them into a waiting ally (or immobilise them for the kill, but thats more a goldfish tactic since puny squids are puny). Shooting them while hiding in a cloud is either done as a sniper ship hiding 1km away or at the very LEAST 500+m away. Or you're a mobile ship in transition to position into blind spot of a less mobile ship, whereupon hiding in said cover in effective range is a moot point as you have the speed to rapidly get out of arc by rapidly retreat or flying straight by the enemy ship. And in either action you wouldn't be shot that badly before you get into blind spot giving you time to recover.

Whatever the case by the time you're in effective range you're already committed into combat because any vet worth their title knows to not let you escape unscathed and won't be that easily tricked when you're hiding in plain sight using clouds as cover while in effective arcs and range of the guns.

Don't just hide in clouds assuming you won't be seen and shot. None of us here are dumb enough to fall for such a flimsy trick.


when given a choice of approaching the front while in clouds or in plain sight from the rear. The latter is much safer in the first place.

First of all, we're talking tactics here. At any point a viable strategy can arise from what New described above.


And secondly, this is about AI magically seeing you through clouds. I don't care if you shouldn't be doing X and X, they are not supposed to do that and that's basically /thread.

[Daft Loon]

The AI cloud shooting is partly unfixable without massive improvements to the client-server cloud disconnect since the AI will always shoot through the 'cosmetic' clouds that block sight for players but not spotting (if you suspect and spam-click the clouds).

[Arturo Sanchez]

I've never seen a successful ambush that's so slow that the few seconds of being shot stops it dead in its tracks.


Ambushes involve kero, ram and losing of arcs and completely out of control of ambushee to counter unless countered by setting up their own trap (common AI clan tactic is something we like to call tag eight).
By the time a target has reached 500m of you, the ambush is already in motion.

and if that "ambush" is in direct arcs of the ship's primary guns (AI dont shoot targets not in arc), then that my boy is called an idiot calling his suicide an "ambush."

I disagree. With proper communication, it's often a good idea to keep within the clouds, allow the enemies to be weakened or turned away from you by your ally, prior to you going all out stamina+kero+fire at will. Thing is, you position up, your ally has to distract etc, but your flanking position is already given away by the AI firing gat at a ship that is invisible to all human players. I'm not talking about charging into the main arcs of a ship willy-nilly. Don't patronise me to think that I'm that stupid. It's a case of being disallowed to bide your time within a cloud waiting for the opportune moment as enemies turn to focus your ally as they commit. 

Ambush vs people that camp pipes is one where this is valid. Especially when running kill squid, my current favourite ship to fly, there's that element of being selective with my engagements and disengagements. A good ambush can be started and finished with a very small distance compared to the more sluggish ships. I've had AI crew ruin this by tipping the enemy off to our position prior to our engagement. This means my ally's commitment becomes an obvious ploy to get me the kite+kill and the entire set up was pointless, thus I can be suppressed and the campers get to camp away.

It's a tiny thing, but it's happened a couple of times. It's enough to annoy me when it happens, but not enough to be game breaking. As said before, real matches don't have AIs as part of them.

You either initiate an ambush or you don't.

You bide your time from a safe distance (way out of range), but if you are in effective range you have two choices, run or commit.

I'm more of a goldfish pilot than a squid pilot but the principles are similar. You move out of enemy arc and blast away to either make a pilot turn your direction or be seen in plain sight to kite them into a waiting ally (or immobilise them for the kill, but thats more a goldfish tactic since puny squids are puny). Shooting them while hiding in a cloud is either done as a sniper ship hiding 1km away or at the very LEAST 500+m away. Or you're a mobile ship in transition to position into blind spot of a less mobile ship, whereupon hiding in said cover in effective range is a moot point as you have the speed to rapidly get out of arc by rapidly retreat or flying straight by the enemy ship. And in either action you wouldn't be shot that badly before you get into blind spot giving you time to recover.

Whatever the case by the time you're in effective range you're already committed into combat because any vet worth their title knows to not let you escape unscathed and won't be that easily tricked when you're hiding in plain sight using clouds as cover while in effective arcs and range of the guns.

Don't just hide in clouds assuming you won't be seen and shot. None of us here are dumb enough to fall for such a flimsy trick.


when given a choice of approaching the front while in clouds or in plain sight from the rear. The latter is much safer in the first place.

First of all, we're talking tactics here. At any point a viable strategy can arise from what New described above.


And secondly, this is about AI magically seeing you through clouds. I don't care if you shouldn't be doing X and X, they are not supposed to do that and that's basically /thread.

charging from the front with a ship that isn't meant to do it isn't a "tactic." Nothing new will come of it besides what scrubs have always provided, free kills.

and tactics and strategy are two different things.


In the long run it balances out. AI can't hit for crap at 500m. They don't shoot at all at 500+. At 200 they can actually hit a hull. By which point an "ambush" should have started at 300. And with kero the "ambushing" ship can reach a blind spot in less than 8 seconds (barely enough to break a hull with gat).


If you die in 8 seconds, then your ship is a failure. The whole cloud aimbot crap is entirely a pointless talking point.

[Koali]

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If you die in 8 seconds, then your ship is a failure. The whole cloud aimbot crap is entirely a pointless talking point.

Pointless talking point, you say? Given the title and OP, I'd say that it's actually one of the main talking points of this thread.

Which means you haven't contributed anything useful to the discussion. Congratulations.

(Though, to be fair, neither have I.)

[Arturo Sanchez]

The topic is about captain spot acting as an AI command for an AI spot. Jesus Christ Kaoli... consistently dropping the ball on the informed department...

[Lieutenant Noir]

I think this has already been mentioned before but I'll say it anyway

What if you could choose when the AI would fire when they detect enemies within a 500m radius?
If AI showed a symbol above their heads Kinda like that Exclamation mark in Metal Gear whenever a ship was indicated.

That way, if you were already on the ball for an ambush (Already in F2 mode) there would be no change from what it is now except for a symbol above the AI heads indicating an enemy.

If you weren't ready, AI would be in F3 mode wandering around the ship for repairs. If you looked at them and suddenly saw a symbol above their heads, you would "Turn off the Headlights" and bide your time.

Keep in mind that it would still be within a 500m radius so it wouldn't be that OP (I hope).

[Kamoba]

I think this has already been mentioned before but I'll say it anyway

What if you could choose when the AI would fire when they detect enemies within a 500m radius?
If AI showed a symbol above their heads Kinda like that Exclamation mark in Metal Gear whenever a ship was indicated.

That way, if you were already on the ball for an ambush (Already in F2 mode) there would be no change from what it is now except for a symbol above the AI heads indicating an enemy.

If you weren't ready, AI would be in F3 mode wandering around the ship for repairs. If you looked at them and suddenly saw a symbol above their heads, you would "Turn off the Headlights" and bide your time.

Keep in mind that it would still be within a 500m radius so it wouldn't be that OP (I hope).

Or, if you're using the clouds as cover, you should have the AI set to F3 to make sure they don't give away your position and only F2 when you're ready.. That's what I do when I'm being sneaky.

[Lieutenant Noir]

Sorry, I wasn't being clear again. 
Let me restate the idea

AI would have an indicator above their heads when they detected an enemy around a 500m radius


That way, if you wanted to be sneaky in a cloud you could just press F3 and they would be walking around the ship in "Repair mode". If they detected an enemy and you didn't want to ambush yet, you would remain in F3 mode but they would still have the indicator above their heads.


If you just want to go for that ambush strategy, you would press F2. If they detected an enemy they would start firing like normal but would have the indicator above their heads. Basically the same as it is now

I hope that's clear

[Arturo Sanchez]

I think this has already been mentioned before but I'll say it anyway

What if you could choose when the AI would fire when they detect enemies within a 500m radius?
If AI showed a symbol above their heads Kinda like that Exclamation mark in Metal Gear whenever a ship was indicated.

That way, if you were already on the ball for an ambush (Already in F2 mode) there would be no change from what it is now except for a symbol above the AI heads indicating an enemy.

If you weren't ready, AI would be in F3 mode wandering around the ship for repairs. If you looked at them and suddenly saw a symbol above their heads, you would "Turn off the Headlights" and bide your time.

Keep in mind that it would still be within a 500m radius so it wouldn't be that OP (I hope).

Or, if you're using the clouds as cover, you should have the AI set to F3 to make sure they don't give away your position and only F2 when you're ready.. That's what I do when I'm being sneaky.

Spoken like a true commander of AI.

Also muse are working on making signals AI commands. You can now open this new can of worms to bicker about and the little scrubs can whine and whine until it gets released at a reasonable state and then inevitable nerfed to the point of uselessness.



As for Noir's idea. I don't get the intention here... to make AI detecting enemies easier or harder? Because if AI spot, that function is pointless.

and actually potentially more OP than the old drums trick.


However... if this function works only towards spotted ships (ur the AI ship and you spot the enemy-AI have the thing on their heads when they within aggro range to tell the pilot). It might actually work. Still redundant but whatever, now its balanced. Pointless but balanced.

Good tool for babies though to memorise the basic effective range of brawlers though.

[Newbluud]

I've never seen a successful ambush that's so slow that the few seconds of being shot stops it dead in its tracks.


Ambushes involve kero, ram and losing of arcs and completely out of control of ambushee to counter unless countered by setting up their own trap (common AI clan tactic is something we like to call tag eight).
By the time a target has reached 500m of you, the ambush is already in motion.

and if that "ambush" is in direct arcs of the ship's primary guns (AI dont shoot targets not in arc), then that my boy is called an idiot calling his suicide an "ambush."

I disagree. With proper communication, it's often a good idea to keep within the clouds, allow the enemies to be weakened or turned away from you by your ally, prior to you going all out stamina+kero+fire at will. Thing is, you position up, your ally has to distract etc, but your flanking position is already given away by the AI firing gat at a ship that is invisible to all human players. I'm not talking about charging into the main arcs of a ship willy-nilly. Don't patronise me to think that I'm that stupid. It's a case of being disallowed to bide your time within a cloud waiting for the opportune moment as enemies turn to focus your ally as they commit. 

Ambush vs people that camp pipes is one where this is valid. Especially when running kill squid, my current favourite ship to fly, there's that element of being selective with my engagements and disengagements. A good ambush can be started and finished with a very small distance compared to the more sluggish ships. I've had AI crew ruin this by tipping the enemy off to our position prior to our engagement. This means my ally's commitment becomes an obvious ploy to get me the kite+kill and the entire set up was pointless, thus I can be suppressed and the campers get to camp away.

It's a tiny thing, but it's happened a couple of times. It's enough to annoy me when it happens, but not enough to be game breaking. As said before, real matches don't have AIs as part of them.

You either initiate an ambush or you don't.

You bide your time from a safe distance (way out of range), but if you are in effective range you have two choices, run or commit.

I'm more of a goldfish pilot than a squid pilot but the principles are similar. You move out of enemy arc and blast away to either make a pilot turn your direction or be seen in plain sight to kite them into a waiting ally (or immobilise them for the kill, but thats more a goldfish tactic since puny squids are puny). Shooting them while hiding in a cloud is either done as a sniper ship hiding 1km away or at the very LEAST 500+m away. Or you're a mobile ship in transition to position into blind spot of a less mobile ship, whereupon hiding in said cover in effective range is a moot point as you have the speed to rapidly get out of arc by rapidly retreat or flying straight by the enemy ship. And in either action you wouldn't be shot that badly before you get into blind spot giving you time to recover.

Whatever the case by the time you're in effective range you're already committed into combat because any vet worth their title knows to not let you escape unscathed and won't be that easily tricked when you're hiding in plain sight using clouds as cover while in effective arcs and range of the guns.

Don't just hide in clouds assuming you won't be seen and shot. None of us here are dumb enough to fall for such a flimsy trick.


when given a choice of approaching the front while in clouds or in plain sight from the rear. The latter is much safer in the first place.

So following clouds to move from cover to cover is now an unfeasible thing to do? It's basically what I was saying. I'm not talking about sitting in a cloud for 30+ seconds for no reason. I'm either talking about hugging a mobile cloud to get from cover to cover without being seen or I'm talking about holding position for enough time to ensure enemy gun arcs will be turned away prior to the charge, but I'm robbed of that when Mystic Morty the Psychic AI decides to gat in my direction, preventing use of cloud cover for moving or in the valuable preemptive seconds before the assault.

I also get the impression that you are not reading what I am saying properly, because you keep coming back to this talking point of blindly charging at the main arcs of an enemy ship, when I have never said I have done that. What I'm describing isn't how I'm dying because of the AI, I'm describing how I lose an opportunity I shouldn't have lost based on the coded clairvoyance of our orange, begoggled friends. That's it.

You may think I don't know anything and I'm some child trying to rub shoulders with the big boys, your tone makes that much very clear, but just because I don't agree with you and think that you're refusing to read what I'm saying properly because you're so caught up in this false idea of what I'm saying, doesn't mean I am incapable of having an opinion that holds water.

I never said I was sniping from a cloud. The issue isn't the AI on my ship, but the opponents ship, not did I ever say that my intentions are to be able to charge into the maw of 100% enemy firepower and believe I'll come off better. Passive-aggressive (or not so much) scrub accusations aside, you're arguing with someone that isn't here, not me.

[Arturo Sanchez]

No I get what you're saying but its so old hat that I'm barely taking your seriously because its such a minor complaint that its practically ignorable.

Oh know you were dumb enough to approach at close range within gun arcs and range when you shouldn't be in the first place, as you are very likely to be spotted because its the general direction all eyes are facing.

If your ambush involves your positioning being seen in any part of transit by the crew of your target ship (e.g. by flying within their predicted direction they are mostly facing), then your ambush is your suicide into an enemy feint.

AI shouldn't be an issue because by the time you are within effective range of brawler guns you should already be in the blind spot as opposed to being the dingus thats praying on some flimsy cloud tactic.

[Newbluud]

I have literally no belief that you were from the get go. It's not even a case of approaching nor am I in all gun arcs. These are situations where a gat on the side of a spire is turned away from the rest of the 'fecta just to shoot at me from the side during set up for the ambush, be it me passing the enemy or me just being in a position to charge. The map this effects most is Canyon, when dealing with pipe campers.

I never said that I was sitting in front of the main arcs of a gun. Not once. You're telling me what I think and how I play based on some previous experience with greener players. I might not have been at this as long as you have, but that isn't call for this elitist attitude. You know I'm a relative newcomer so you immediately shut off all incoming information and projected this image of a charging meatgrindmidion scrub onto me.

[Arturo Sanchez]

These are situations where a gat on the side of a spire is turned away from the rest of the 'fecta just to shoot at me from the side during set up for the ambush,

that is not an issue. you get a little peppering of gat. But if you actually got what I'm drilling into you. It doesn't even MATTER. You are within effective range, the gat won't do bugger all and the pilot can't do much about you because you've already made it past the defences.

You're commited into the ambush.

The point you're making and is completely ignorable as a legitimate as a complaint. You're just being too thick headed understand that you're making such a big deal over nothing.


If thats your best example then that confirms the weak sauce you're spouting and you're just another person making the same complaint that I hear over and over with a  clear lack of vision for the bigger picture. A picture where being slightly hit during an ambush isn't the end of the world. Where during your positioning period, you're spotted as opposed to everything going aaaaaaall according to plan.



case in point. play the odds better. instead of asking us to increase your odds for you. This was originally just about a simple mechanic I wanted added.

And I've sent it to muse and they've approved and added it to their bucket list.