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Fire Extinguisher

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Daft Loon:
A possible indirect nerf to the chem would be to remove or limit the free extinguish on broken components, maybe allowing 5 or 10 fire stacks to remain after a component breaks. It would increase the main disadvantage of chem without changing its main functionality which is well balanced if slightly tedious.
I think extinguisher is about right at the moment (to clarify the before-after was about the buff it got, not one i want) its main limitation is the mallet cool-down more than its own stats. The choice between
-ext.-spanner-ext.-spanner.... to keep 1 component immune and slightly repaired
or
-ext.-mallet-run and repair something else and hope it catches less than a mallets worth of fire stacks in the 7+ seconds
is interesting and challenging now that the result of both choices isn't just 'die because flamer op without chem'.

Extirminator:

--- Quote from: Daft Loon on August 24, 2015, 06:47:44 am ----ext.-mallet-run and repair something else and hope it catches less than a mallets worth of fire stacks in the 7+ seconds
is interesting and challenging now that the result of both choices isn't just 'die because flamer op without chem'.

--- End quote ---

But flamer is OP without chem still, maybe not on engines, but it still forces you to extinguish overheated guns and repair them more frequently due to extra damage from fires - so on the guns front it is still worse than chemspray that lets you shoot without distractions.
On balloon there is no question that having an extinguisher will kill you, say the flamer is shooting non-stop and you do the mallet extinguisher tactic, you will be losing about 610 balloon HP each cycle(407 fire damage) while gaining 250HP from the mallet each cycle, your balloon will be done for it within about 30seconds.
On armor you have a slightly more optimistic story with 325 HP lost and 250HP gained each cycle which will put you on a 75HP loss every 9 seconds. This could be manageable if the only source of damage is the flamer, but add in pretty much anything else to the equation and you are screwed.

As to the tactic of spanner-ext-spanner, this will work exclusively if you have pretty much 1 component to work on, and will require you to babysit it to an extent you are not able to shoot so it is not viable in the slightest.

Why settle for the lesser when you can get chem spray and actually gain HP/s instead of losing HP/s?

Kamoba:

--- Quote from: Daft Loon on August 24, 2015, 06:47:44 am ---A possible indirect nerf to the chem would be to remove or limit the free extinguish on broken components, maybe allowing 5 or 10 fire stacks to remain after a component breaks. It would increase the main disadvantage of chem without changing its main functionality which is well balanced if slightly tedious.
I think extinguisher is about right at the moment (to clarify the before-after was about the buff it got, not one i want) its main limitation is the mallet cool-down more than its own stats. The choice between
-ext.-spanner-ext.-spanner.... to keep 1 component immune and slightly repaired
or
-ext.-mallet-run and repair something else and hope it catches less than a mallets worth of fire stacks in the 7+ seconds
is interesting and challenging now that the result of both choices isn't just 'die because flamer op without chem'.

--- End quote ---

The problem I see with this would be the unintentional Nerf to gunners.
For example, lets assume an engineer misses the perfect chem cycle for X reason, the gunners gun does not get chemmed, and he has not loaded heat sink because he thought the engineer would hold his hand, the gun overheats, in this situation it would be better for him to let the gun break until the engineer can save him.. The gun breaks, gunner rebuilds, lets assume 10stacks stay, the gunner is still screwed.
Thus hitting the already painful to have gunner class more so.

Keep in mind when balancing a game, the majority of player base skill levels need to be kept into account, and the majority skill level run double engineer one gunner, one engineer with chem one with ext, or both with ext, and you'll be lucky if the gunner has/uses heat sink...

Daft Loon:

--- Quote from: Extirminator on August 24, 2015, 08:46:09 am ---......
On balloon there is no question that having an extinguisher will kill you, say the flamer is shooting non-stop and you do the mallet extinguisher tactic, you will be losing about 610 balloon HP each cycle(407 fire damage) while gaining 250HP from the mallet each cycle, your balloon will be done for it within about 30seconds.
On armor you have a slightly more optimistic story with 325 HP lost and 250HP gained each cycle which will put you on a 75HP loss every 9 seconds. This could be manageable if the only source of damage is the flamer, but add in pretty much anything else to the equation and you are screwed.
........

--- End quote ---

20 stacks do 72 balloon damage per second so for a cycle of 2s ext, 2s immune + mallet, 7s mallet, 1s wasted you take 8s damage out of 12s for 576 total - 250 repair = 326 damage per cycle
1200/326 = 3.68 cycles
= 36s + 4s immunity at the start of the last cycle for 40s bare minimum if the flamethrower could set 20 stacks instantly and fire full time which it can't. 40s to break a balloon while keeping the engineer only half occupied is fairly awful considering that is the maximum damage possible with greased (assuming something favourable for the gunner that balances out the lack of instant 20 stacks). Well applied chem is much better in that situation but extinguisher is good enough and gives you benefits elsewhere (no chem cycles, no immovable 20 stacks etc).


--- Quote from: Kamoba on August 24, 2015, 09:01:20 am ---......

--- End quote ---
That is true although 5 stacks would be an annoyance to chem carrying engineers without hitting gunners too hard. That said its probably not worth doing, short of a widespread rebalancing of fire (bringing incendiary rounds to some widely useful but not op state aswell etc) I'd say its fairly well balanced atm.

Lieutenant Noir:
Hmm..
This is going out there.. (Just like everything that comes out of my head) and I'm sure Muse would never implement this

but what if you could use the extinguisher farther away from a component?
Like.. you could extinguish a component from a meter away and be in time to mallet it.

It would be sort of the lazy chem cycle.


Or I don't know... use it as a speed burst to jump from component to component faster so that you could do a rocket jump (Like in Wall-E or Gravity... Please don't take this one seriously)

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