Canyon Ambush Map Size

[DJ Tipz N Trix]

For the 2v2 Canyon Ambush, while it is often a decent fight, there is just a gigantic advantage to sitting in your spawn and waiting on the opponent.  The spawn is clear of rocks, unlike the canyon area.  If you die in your spawn, you can respawn and have the advantage on the enemy.  These are two reasons why ships will both camp their spawn and you end up at a disadvantage trying to force conflict by moving into the opponent's spawn.  In addition, there can often be hide-and-seek matches where ships are both moving, trying to find each other, for upwards of 10 minutes. 



I propose cutting off the top row and the bottom 2 rows, and spawning ships on the west and east side of the canyon.  This will force action much more, similar to Duel at Dawn, and make it a lot less advantageous to camp your own spawn.

[Daft Loon]

Worth testing i think, maybe only cutting 1/2 and 1 1/2 rows.

It would become compulsory to add a crazy king variant to avoid the cut areas going to waste.

[DJ Tipz N Trix]

Well, cut it off for 2v2.  Leave it in for 3v3.

[Byron Cavendish]

The issue is more the clouds than the size. When there were fewer clouds, especially in mid then finding each other and setting up engagements was much quicker.

[Dementio]

Although I don't dislike the idea of a map with really only canyons (which would make it another Paritan, but that isn't bad), I don't think you and I have seen the same games. Actually being able to find the enemy when both are being silly is an argument I could live with, if the map gets cut off.

However, out of the many matches I have played and watched being played I would say it is harder to camp successfully in your spawn than it is when just moving towards the enemy.

The reason why I say so is because what you called "advantages":

• Area which is clear of rocks:
  
  • This means there is no cover for the camping team.
  • A team that uses this to their advantage probably does long range, however there is often not enough time to react to enemies that are prepared and use not the rocks as cover to engage, but the clouds instead.
  • For the southern spawn area, which is ridiculously huge, you don't even have to come from up front. You can attack the enemy directly from the side even when they are at the very back of their spawn, with soft and hard cover to boot.
  • Ambushes or just "safe" close range engagements are possible even on Dunes. The (spawn-)area in which you can "safely" snipe in Canyon is not even half of Dunes.
• Respawn to gain advantage:
  
  • This may not necessarily count as argument, but teams even in comp have to learn to not spawn in alone to get instantly meatgrinded. Even I, a Rydr, did this mistake rather recently.
  • It is often rather predictable where the enemy would spawn once you killed them in their spawn, since the options are rather limited, when you don't want to be shot at the second you respawned.
  • Also: Being shot the second you respawn. You cannot react as quickly as the enemy who is fully repaired and rebuffed with the crew already on guns.
  • When you die and the enemy is at the end of the map, behind your spawn, you can only spawn with your back turned towards them. That means you either turn around, which results in the enemy already being in brawling distance when you are done, so no sniping, or you run away as fast as you can, but to where? The enemy spawn?

TLDR; The enemy can make as much use of those advantages as you can, if not more so.

I have seen quite a few comp matches where a team camped the spawn and the other tried to outsnipe them. For some reason the campers had less problems there. Then suddenly time is running out while the campers are in the lead and so the non-campers just charged in there and were doing better than the ones that camped. In one match that I remember the campers still won, because the time ran out before they could respawn to die again.
And many matches where Rydr did very well was when we literally camped in the enemy spawn. They were denied one or two areas to spawn in, less they would get shot immediately, which means less tactical advantage and were pushed in a corner when choosing one of the "safe" spawns, limited in their strategies. It is rare that we lost a match once we were in the enemy spawn, because once you are in there, the enemy has rather few options to defend themselves. Duel at Dawn is a prime example of spawn killing, maybe if you would actually gain some invincibility for a few seconds after spawning, it would be better? But that is a topic for another thread.

[DJ Tipz N Trix]

The spawn is clear of rocks, but there are still pipes and one big cliff on the blue side spawn to use as cover, and the clouds don't extend to the very back.  Short range teams can use this to get closer, but this still gives the opponent time to see you and respond, and this works even if they are not sniping ships, but also short range themselves, and just want to fight around their spawn.

In the case where you kill a ship without dying, you may have an advantage being in the enemy spawn, usually enough to get a 2nd ship.  However if you trade ships 1 to 1, what usually happens is that the team with the close spawn respawns and cleans up the 2nd ship, while the team who attacked cannot reach there in time to help their ally.

[Dementio]

If the enemy is a brawling team that camps then you don't necessarily need cover to engage as nothing will hurt you from far away.

If it is a trade of kills then it is obvious that running away to regroup is an option. Often times ships cannot react that quickly before the target has left their spawn and for the southern spawn you don't even need to leave it.

[DJ Tipz N Trix]

If the enemy is a brawling team that camps then you don't necessarily need cover to engage as nothing will hurt you from far away.

If it is a trade of kills then it is obvious that running away to regroup is an option. Often times ships cannot react that quickly before the target has left their spawn and for the southern spawn you don't even need to leave it.

Running away is an option if your ships are faster than theirs and they aren't using some kind of disable for balloon or engines, like carronade or hwacha.  Running away from a Goldfish with a Junker, for example, is almost impossible when you're inside their spawn.

[Dementio]

Fly backwards, fly into cover, tar something, maybe you even have a mine, get yourself in a position where only one ship at a time can get you.
When somebody kills your ally, because you were doing two 1v1s than it probably takes a bit for this enemy to turn around and actually shoot you with decent accuracy.
Hwacha can itself be disabled rather easily and a destroyed balloon doesn't necessarily slow you down on Canyon, it could on that slope in the southern spawn area.

And who says you can't kill your target, when your ally dies before the enemy can 2v1 you. You might just be able to kill the other dude too or disable them in return and safely disengage or with masterful piloting, gunning and engineering distract the enemy while taking minimum damage while your ally is coming back.

But to readdress the actual topic of this thread instead of making our own "How to pilot 101":
Yes, I would like another that is only Canyons.
No, I don't think camping in your spawn is a

gigantic advantage

on Canyon or any map for that matter.

[VomAct]

In my experience, camping your spawn is the slowest way to lose a match on canyons.  There just simply are very few places you can sit at and snipe against a smart, aggressive enemy where you can be effective before they are in your face, killing you.  It is true that in competitive you can use the timer to your advantage but ultimately it is not a winning strategy.

Also I thing that the current state of small maps where it is easy to spawncamp is just fine, especially since they chopped your spawn options in half for Duel at Dawn.

[DJ Tipz N Trix]

I think current canyons has far too much downtime where teams refuse to cross the canyons, whether or not they are sniping ships.  It's not about sniping; it's about having an advantageous area to fight in and staying in that area for the advantage that it provides you.

Ultimately, many matches have indeed timed out in the SCS, and it has been a winning strategy.

The smaller canyons allows ships to help their ally more quickly after spawning, doesn't give the southern spawn a much larger area than the northern spawn, and all parts of the map contain some rocky terrain, preventing the tug-of-war between ships that will only fight in the rocky canyon and ships that will only fight in the clear air of the current spawns.

[Extirminator]

Once teams play a bit more than a few months in "competitive" matches they start realizing it is plain boring and really not advantageous  to camp spawns. If your enemies are even slightly smart, and put thinking before mindlessly rushing you are in a world of hurt.
Also, it's more fun and engaging to watch a non-static match in my opinion - so that's a plus.

I don't actually think that Canyon Ambush is stupidly designed and isn't balanced, I think that it's the people playing who make it out to be this way, by playing it like that. I actually believe that Canyon Ambush is one of the more well-designed maps balance-wise, and it's really fun to play on, it is easily my favorite map to play on.

[Dementio]

Camping the enemy spawn is also a winning strategy and has probably won more matches than camping the own spawn.

[Frostbound]

Everyone knows I'm speaking as a ex-Thrall here, but seriously, the map is filled with clouds, many different approach angles, it's not called Canyon Ambush(!!!) without a reason... People who played while back have seen thralls break spawncamps on both sides, even when the infamous triple art junker was OP, it proves that the spawns can be broken with smart play in competitive.

Personally I think Canyon Ambush is one of the best designed maps in the game, since it's so versatile and interesting. We all have seen fighting in all parts of the canyon in all altitudes as well which, again, proves that the map is used fully to it's potential unlike some maps like Firnfield where the sides of the maps are rarely even visited.

Long story short, I think calling spawncamping a winning strategy is simply not true, almost the opposite, the team that can get the ambush on the enemy has the advantage in the fight and is more likely to win an engagement, be it in the enemy spawn or in the canyons.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Canyon's biggest flaw is Red Spawn. You can box Red team in and spawn camp on it. The spawn points just aren't far enough apart. Blue has the advantage of having a big open area and a canyon to block off one of the spawns. Plus better cover.

Generally most maps in this game favor blue spawn either way. Fjords, Paritan, Firnfeld, Water Hazard, even maps like Dunes which shouldn't have a tactical advantage with Blue, do have one. CP maps is a similar story. Heck even 4v4 has blue advantages. Not sure if it is a conscious decision or if Muse did it without thinking about it. Some maps the advantage is greater than others. But when literally every map in the game has a blue spawn advantage, guessing Muse knew.