Dust Storms

[Daft Loon]

They don't really add anything positive to either map, on dunes they mostly just make you wait for them to pass and they do whatever you were doing and frequently result in both teams waiting on either side of the zone unwilling to attack and sniping at 50% or so speed because of the extra cloud cover, on desert scrap they are part of the large bias towards whoever gets to the point first.

For desert scrap i think rotating the path of the clouds 90 degrees so they go across the opening rather than through it would give the attacker an advantage that they need.

For dunes I'm not sure, spreading them out across 3 rows of the map maybe?

[The Mann]

I personally think that Sandstorms should alternate, be random and spawn at different locations.

On the practice map, the sandstorms are peripheral. they form a huge circle on the map rather than a predictable occurrence across the middle.

Despite this though, it could be very hard to achieve and could also cause strain on the servers hosting the maps.

[Daft Loon]

As far as randomness a semi-random pattern long enough that people don't keep track of it would be good enough and less server intensive, as long as it had a variable start point.

[Dementio]

On scrap it adds constant pressure to the defenders. When you are trying to capture a point that is defended by 3 ships and you can only get into the capture zone from one specific angle, then you want them to feel the pain of the sandstorm, because otherwise it will be nigh impossible to get there. If the sandstorm is only in front of the opening and not going through it, from north to south, then the attackers have more problems, beause the defenders can see them coming through the cloud/sandstorm first and get the first shots of.

On Dunes I never had any problems with it. If snipers have that much trouble then they should realise sitting in their spawn and sniping the other end of the map, the enemy spawn, isn't going to work. And actually, sandstorms often don't do anything for them on dunes, because they can go above them or below them and get a clear shot even with the clouds rolling through.

And for retreating there is one thing the sandstorms do better than anything else: They lose your spot instantly. You probably know the feeling that when you go into a cloud and suddenly you are spotted, it doesn't happen in sandstorms. And if they flare you, there is a good chance half of them are lagging and unable to hit you , but when it is for example a Metamidion chasing you, they probably won't use the flare and you can easily escape, because in there nobody will be able to see the other ship.

Although I never used clouds like the following, you could use them to fend of ambushes, they can happen in Dunes, yes. Nobody wants to start an ambush in the middle of the map and you can just chill above or below the sandstorms in the middle of the map. When something happens, chances are you already saw that ambush coming and are prepared.



I have nothing against making the cloud patterns in general more random and as long as the number of clouds on the map doesn't increase they probably won't be too many server or graphical issues. But even though they are not random, I have had very few matches where they make the match worse for both teams and those worse matches where probably when I played with some novices together, because they don't care about that sandstorm, they are going to fight in the center of the map until victory or defeat.

[BlackenedPies]

I think the sand should only affect the defenders in scrap. It's too easy otherwise, it needs something to balance.

[Daft Loon]

For desert scrap i think rotating the path of the clouds 90 degrees so they go across the opening rather than through it would give the attacker an advantage that they need.

I worded that rather poorly, the intent being basically that the storms fill the map column that has the point rather than the row. Ships on the point would suffer damage as would those flanking at a close angle, sniping to and from the point would be easier when ships approach directly except when the storm is on the point itself (when a flare would give a large attacking advantage).

On dunes the painful experiences I've had have been not so much full sniping (where you sit well back and the storms are essentially just clouds) but where the teams are mixed/medium range. They both advance up to the line on the map on each side and because of dense clouds and fewer sniping weapons it takes a long time for anything to happen at 1000m, but because of the storms if the closer range ships on either side attempt to attack they risk being cut off from their remaining teammates so it ends up with a sniping battle without enough of the proper weapons to make it end. It can be avoided by coordinating ship load outs so you all can go through the middle or none of you need to but that usually doesn't happen.
Having written that i think its mostly 3v3 and 4v4 that suffer with it being a much easier situation to break in 2v2.

I think the sand should only affect the defenders in scrap. It's too easy otherwise, it needs something to balance.

That's more more or less what I'm aiming for

[Saull]

Fly low enough and you can actually go under most of the dust storm as it rolls in through dunes. If I have to I use it as cover when I need to get across the middle of the map unseen

[Byron Cavendish]

On scrap it adds constant pressure to the defenders. When you are trying to capture a point that is defended by 3 ships and you can only get into the capture zone from one specific angle, then you want them to feel the pain of the sandstorm, because otherwise it will be nigh impossible to get there. If the sandstorm is only in front of the opening and not going through it, from north to south, then the attackers have more problems, beause the defenders can see them coming through the cloud/sandstorm first and get the first shots of.

On Dunes I never had any problems with it. If snipers have that much trouble then they should realise sitting in their spawn and sniping the other end of the map, the enemy spawn, isn't going to work. And actually, sandstorms often don't do anything for them on dunes, because they can go above them or below them and get a clear shot even with the clouds rolling through.

And for retreating there is one thing the sandstorms do better than anything else: They lose your spot instantly. You probably know the feeling that when you go into a cloud and suddenly you are spotted, it doesn't happen in sandstorms. And if they flare you, there is a good chance half of them are lagging and unable to hit you , but when it is for example a Metamidion chasing you, they probably won't use the flare and you can easily escape, because in there nobody will be able to see the other ship.

Although I never used clouds like the following, you could use them to fend of ambushes, they can happen in Dunes, yes. Nobody wants to start an ambush in the middle of the map and you can just chill above or below the sandstorms in the middle of the map. When something happens, chances are you already saw that ambush coming and are prepared.



I have nothing against making the cloud patterns in general more random and as long as the number of clouds on the map doesn't increase they probably won't be too many server or graphical issues. But even though they are not random, I have had very few matches where they make the match worse for both teams and those worse matches where probably when I played with some novices together, because they don't care about that sandstorm, they are going to fight in the center of the map until victory or defeat.

That could be true, if the storms were actually designed to work that way. The issue is in the application, not the concept. Currently when the storm arrives it hits attackers and defenders because it arrives into the only entrance you can capture from. You can't long range kill any defenders because the storms block visibility and occur far too often. Basically as it stands now, the storms on both maps are just poorly implemented. Instead of adding a tactical advantage, it just causes every ship to stop combat for 20 seconds as they repair through the damage it causes and wait for it to end. It's frustrating, it's not fun and it's a poor mechanic...and Muse loves it to death.

[Dementio]

You shouldn't long range in that game mode, just as you shouldn't long range in crazy king. In desert scrap shooting a Lumberjack into point could actually work, because when you are too low you can't cap the point, but that is not fun either or is it? In deathmatch you can dodge long range, engage them through cover and clouds, but in desert scrap you would have to stay on the point and eat it. That is even less fun than the sand storm as far as I can tell.

That is, in a coordinated team that would happen. In an uncoordinated game, like your average public matches (even though a form of coordination actually happens very frequently to me) you have to be on the point to make sure the enemy doesn't capture it or to even uncap it yourself. It doesn't matter if you snipe from a distance with your Flak when your team dies to 2v3 on the point. If you Lumberjack them than it is a 2v2 for your team, but if the map isn't desert scrap the enemy is going to capture, because that 3rd ship is still alive, on the ground and capping. That also applied for 4v4 crazy king. And long ranging from to point to the outside is only possible on crazy king, because the king of the hill maps allow for very easy close range engagements.

The only problem I have with the sandstorm is the moment when I spawn inside of it, but there are other spawns to the side so it is the captains fault for taking the risk to spawn right there on the middle.

[Byron Cavendish]

Sorry if there is confusion to the point I'm making. I'm not suggesting that you should try to long range kill defenders on desert scrap. I pointed out that it will not work and therefore only close range engagements are really the only viable option. Therefore the dust mechanic doesn't really help attackers or deter defenders, it just stops all combat momentum until the sand dissipates. So as a mechanic it's useless and frustrating. In fact it helps the attackers, if there was no dust storms then attackers could take a lumberjack and really do some damage, or enough that the other attackers could get in there un-molested and and clean up.

[Dementio]

I also talked about how I think long ranging with the Lumberjack on desert scrap is worse than the sand storm:

In desert scrap shooting a Lumberjack into point could actually work, because when you are too low you can't cap the point, but that is not fun either or is it? In deathmatch you can dodge long range, engage them through cover and clouds, but in desert scrap you would have to stay on the point and eat it. That is even less fun than the sand storm as far as I can tell.

You can in fact do long range to stop other attackers, if your teamwork is good enough for it.

Stopping the momentum may not be bad either. You are doing a close range brawl against the same three ships for the entirety of the match with (very likely) no special sneak up attacks. The sandstorm adds something to it. If there is something else that could add player independent dynamic to some degree, I wouldn't mind hearing about it. Or maybe open a way to actually attack from above from all angles. But now I am turning it into a discussion not focused around the sand storms anymore.

[Byron Cavendish]

That's true it does add something to it. Im not saying the concept of sand storms is bad either. But the current mechanic of a continuous storm repeating the same narrow path in the middle of a desert is both frustrating and realistically unsound. If it travelled in different patterns and from different angles dynamically, sure that would be interesting and break up a lot of strategies.

[Dementio]

A different pattern sounds nice.

[greendra]

I would like a feature where you could turn dust storms and clouds off in practice match. I find it hard when trying to work out the ark of the gun at different ranges, when at 2000m + there is 99.99% of the time a cloud in the way.