Author Topic: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill  (Read 12537 times)

Offline Jed Stream

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Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« on: June 03, 2015, 02:38:04 am »
Hello all- as title says I am looking for advice in dealing with 2 Spires sitting on the capture point. I tried to get in close with my ally (Goldfish as well) but they picked us off at long range. It was the map with lots of buildings. We tried coming from opposite directions but got taken out just as quick (5-10 secs). I realise they were very experienced and probably had all 4 crew on buffed weapons but how can I make more of a fight of it? Cheers.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 02:53:09 am by Jed Stream »

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 02:57:07 am »
Well, it would help to know what weapons the spires were using.

In general, it's basically a race to see who disables who first. A single hwacha can completely disable a spire because it has lots of components sticking out and clustered together. Carronades are less effective (shorter range) but can still work, especially lochnagar. Once a spire is disabled they are excellent target for a ram.

On labyrinth (the koth city map), it is usually good for close-range ships to stay low where there is hard cover as they make the approach. You can actually sneak under the bridge and get the jump on people camping high up.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 03:40:45 am »
All the above, but also, Spire is an ideal target for a Hades, if you want to kill it, Hades will give you a good mid-long range option, along with a flak or Artemis, you should find you'll be able to do good damage or kill them if you don't approach them head on.

Try to not approach your enemies in the open and if they have long range, stay low, go from.cover to cover. :)

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 03:47:01 am »
Bring kerosene, phoenix claw, and hydrogen
When you spawn in burn kerosene all the way to the middle. Use at least 3/4 of your pilot stamina as soon as you start (press shift), and have your engineers repair engines. Since you're goldfish youll be the first there. I recommend going low and circling to the opposite side of the globe under the clouds. Burn as much as possible and repair engines with spanner until they need a mallet. You will burn engines at least 80% of the match.

If you have a hwatcha then bring an engineer with burst ammo. Burst is the best and only ammo, and having an engineer lets you bring spanner mallet buff and maximize both damage and repairs. Wait until you have shots on the middle of their ship before unleashing and everything will break. The front engi buffs and repairs hwatcha during reload, and if necessary helps on armor. A good tactic is disabling everything with buff burst from medium-close range and ramming them downwards. There are many possible situations but usually after you shoot the hwatcha you'll either burn towards them and ram/control, turn and use the right side gun, or burn to avoid fire/reposition. A greased gat or lesmok flame work as side guns and I use a greased carronade. Keep the ship steady while the hwatcha shoots.

For a heavy carronade bring heavy clip ammo for long/mid range and charged/heatsink for close. A buff engi with heavy clip works, or you can use a gunner to get better arcs with gunner stamina (buff engi does more damage and better repairs). Your goal is to get up close to them as fast as possible and pop their balloon. If you stay close to their balloon they cant shoot you and you can control them. When they hit the ground they die. If they're above you then stay low and make them shoot your balloon while you get close to them. When you're ready burn hydro and stamina up to their balloon. Stay above them and you control everything, or stay below and theyll only hit your balloon while you prepare.

If you're in trouble go up or down or towards cover, tools and stamina are your best defense. Hold up before you use hydro and only leave it on for an instant (on off). Having a wrench buff engineer on your balloon is great for mobility. Remind your engis to use stamina and your front gunner to help on hull. Burn tools all the time and don't forget stamina.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 03:49:43 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 05:36:16 am »
If they make the mistake of getting too close to a wall (and you have some balloon health or armor to use) dont hesitate to ram them, the shape of the various obstacles in Labrynth makes getting stuck when rammed into them highly likely and spires are more vulnerable than most with thier long spike/tail/whatever and low armor.

If they are sitting high above the point they wont actually be counted as capturing it, so if you can go low and get in cover behind (never in) the globe (the broken cage with the point balloon in it) they will be forced to drop down to stop you capturing it.

The bottom left spawn point has the easiest path to the point, use it to return to the fight fastest (if your ally is surviving), consider expecting your opponents to spawn there and ambushing them and beware of them doing the same to you.

Offline SnaG

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2015, 08:20:34 am »
So this is how I tend to deal with spires, especially on maps like this with large amounts of cloud/ cover, (at least the theory of it). It's a specific tactic I like to use, so it wont help in all circumstances, however it synergies with this map quite well.

First up you'll need kerosene, phoenix claw and chute vent (opposite of hydro) and a goldfish equipped with a heavy carronade. You need to make sure you're approaching the enemy from a position of cover, so that they spot you as late as possible. You also need to make sure you're never going into a 2v1. If the ally of the spire you're focusing on can lay disabling fire on you, your victim will be able to escape, reposition and annihilate you. So pick your targets wisely - isolated ships or a ship already engaged by your ally will make the easiest targets.

So here's the tactic:


1: You need to be approaching from above. Due to all the buildings, you'll likely have gained altitude to avoid most of the obstructions. Ships in the centre will tend to stay at lower altitudes due to the lack of cover and multiple directions you can approach from. Another thing to remember is that you cant just fly to the centre, have a good look around, then expect  to be able to choose a target; you need to decide your target en route and keep your momentum from your engine burn into the centre of the map going into this manoeuvre. Make sure to be bringing up the mini-map with M to check the position of the ships. If they're spotted this will be a lot easier.
So you've found your enemy, their alone, and it's time to go in for the attack. As you move towards the spire, you need to be burning kerosene (staying above them and out of their arcs) and, if they've seen you, use your stamina as a speed boost on top of the kero and a mini hydrogen to maintain yourself above their arcs (as can be seen on the diagram -_-).

2/3: So now you're just above the spire, poised for the next stage. Activate chute vent (only for a moment, it will continue on its own for a few seconds after use) and make sure you're pressing s to descend more quickly. As can be seen on the diagram, the balloon extends at the front of the goldfish further than the hull, allowing you to use it as a kind of hook - as you hit the top of the spire, have your gunner ready on the heavy carronade, so he can shoot out their balloon. Once their balloon is broken the spire will be hopefully be in big trouble (you may well get a hull break as well) and their cap will try to outmanoeuvre you, and get his gun arcs on your ship. Just bear attention to your altitude - don't use any more chute vent - and stick to his balloon, having your gunner repeatedly destroy their balloon. Spires die especially quickly on the floor, so don't try to ram unless you have to (or until you gain some more experience with ramming), it's always better to keep your position over ramming, unless you need to get the kill off quickly and help your ally.

After pulling off the first kill, you'll have to brawl with the second spire. Hopefully you'll still have an ally by this point. Even for experienced players, a 2v1 isn't easy and you should pull off the second kill quickly. If you manage this, expect the first spire to be rushing back in to help its ally. They'll likely approach from the South-West (quickest route), so make sure you're pointing that way. In my experience it's far easier playing on the defensive on this map  so you should be alright from then on in. Never overly extend when defending, make sure to keep guarding that capture point!

This technique can help you pull off a very quick first kill, especially if they're already at lowish altitude - which is especially important for  KoTH as you need to kill both of them in quick succession, before the one you've just killed is back to help its ally. Remember from the first kill to the second, you probably have only about 40s till they respawn and get to the centre again so be wary of that.

Offline Jed Stream

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2015, 11:06:55 am »
Many thanks for your replies- lots of food for thought.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2015, 01:51:14 pm »
Was it 2 goldfishes versus 2 Spires?

Know that spires have little armor and difficult to manage within it. Taking out their armor will put them at a difficult place. When you do, they are easy to place explosive shots in.
So in fundemental basics, they are quite squishy.

Depending on what guns you had and the spires, is going to determine how you approach.

So the above allready gave you information, know that spires are quite touchy.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2015, 01:53:55 pm »
You can't fly with the default keys. You need to be able to use all movement, throttle, number, and voice keys simultaneously with no overlap. I recommend the mouse buttons as throttle because you need to change between full forwards and backwards nearly instantly. Put your map key close by (I use C) and I recommend changing voice keys to shift/control. The number keys are a big hassle to use but if you do make sure hydro is in the last spot. For 1234 I use (Alt mouse3 mouse4 Q).

Reaction time is a big factor in piloting. Whenever in doubt make a quick decision and burn engines. You'll burn kerosene at least 80% of the time when you're goldfish. A good defensive position on the map is low near the globe. If the globe is between you and them it forces them to get close and low. They will be using hydro too so anticipate it. If in doubt go point blank and ram their balloon to slow them down. To prevent bouncing off when ramming, burn backwards at the instant before impact.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 01:55:41 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline nanoduckling

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2015, 02:47:01 pm »
These were likely brawling Spires. Never, ever, ever, get in the front arcs of a brawling Spire. If you do, get out as fast a possible (hydrogen, kero, burn your own engines and balloon out if you have to but get the heck out of there), you have seconds to reposition or disable them or you are dead. You've likely fought novice crewed Spires and won, be careful when fighting these not to fall into bad habits. You can perform a frontal assault on a novice Spire and win because they repair too much. This allows you to pull engineers off guns and grind them down. A experienced Spire crew wont care if you get a hull break or even pop a balloon, they will keep shooting until guns go out of arc, and if you are in the region SnaG labelled 'disable and death zone', well, it does exactly what it says on the tin.

A Spire forced into a repair cycle (by being blended or set on fire or having turning engines disables while in a gat arc) is typically depending on either vastly superior engineers (which they might have), or their ally. At that point they are much easier pickings. I advise you and your regular crew to take a few of the Spires out for a test fly. You'll lose the first few matches in them and you will need to build the discipline necessary to keep fighting as bits fly off the ship. Once you've won a few matches in them you'll also know how they are vulnerable. I don't suggest doing this on Lab though (Canyon or Paritan is a better choice). Spire on Lab is weak when trying to take the point (slow to get in and have to go high, and Spires aint exactly sneaky), and vulnerable to surprise attack while defending (they either go high and leave the point undefended on go low and have a high chance of facing the wrong way when a hwachafish comes in, whoever gets the first disable typically wins that contest).

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2015, 04:41:08 pm »
Sounds like you just kept running at them. Even if approaching from opposite angles, if you run into gun arcs you're just wasting your life. This is true for really any ship.

If its Labyrinth, Spires have a huge disadvantage. There is so much on the ground or things they can run into that their tall stature can easily be used against them. Simply put, go for Jackfish or Blenderfish. If Blender, you have to get in quick and fast, avoid the arcs. Either way, keep them popped and they'll likely crash into something in no time and die just because they are too tall for the map.

I actually would avoid attacking at altitude like they are suggesting. Spires have full advantage at altitude and if you charge in, they'll see you coming and turn on you before you can get close. Utilize cloud and building cover, get in low where possible where they won't see you coming till the last second.

The trouble then comes in holding the point. I'd honestly not sit there waiting. I'd take low ambush positions and just engage them as they rush back in.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 04:46:02 pm by Gilder Unfettered »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2015, 04:51:18 pm »
Coming in high towards them will likely cause them to hydro up to your face. Spires have better vertical mobility than fish, but if you start off high and they hydro then you can hydro and keep the advantage or stamina burn down. Your best bet is staying as close as possible and drawing them down low. The area low around the globe is a good defensive position and you can use the clouds. Burn engines all the time and save stamina for going up or down.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 04:55:07 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline SnaG

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2015, 07:50:37 pm »
Emphasis on timing and speed regarding what I said earlier. Often they'll see you too late and hydrogen will only hinder them since their balloon will be partially damaged already, reducing their manoeuvrability and increasing your control. From what I've seen, killing spires with a blenderfish is always about speed, getting in their face and control.

(IMO) There are a few advantages of going from high -> mid (chute vent) rather than low -> mid (hydrogen), especially on this map:
 
 - You'll likely be approaching at altitude already, in order to navigate around obstacles. In my experience it's just quicker and more effective to maintain your momentum this way. It gives them less time and you a quicker close with the target spire. 

 - To approach from below, you must pass slightly into their firing arcs in order to pop their balloon. Approaching from above will allow you to break their balloon without crossing into their firing arcs. In my experience with spires you can rarely count on staying outside their firing arcs if you are say, behind them - especially post stamina.

 - In my opinion chute vent is a far more versatile tool than hydrogen in this context. If they engage hydrogen and you begin to be in danger of crossing their arcs a tap of chute vent will allow you to reposition and re-engage. Since chute vent causes less damage to the balloon than hydrogen, you retain more capacity for vertical movement / another burn.

 - Goomba stomps.

I just have my doubts over the use of hydrogen whilst using a brawling goldfish against spires. It just feels too defensive on such an aggressive map where dps is at a premium.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2015, 08:34:00 pm »
The spires want to stay up with as much open space as possible. If you try to come in high then they will hydro up and force you to disengage. You can't afford to be shot by all 3-8 guns even if you do pop balloon. The idea is to force them to engage low and close around the globe. Being low let's you use the globe and clouds as cover. They will likely be aggressive so you choose the engagements.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 08:35:46 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Tips- Fish Vs Spires King of Hill
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2015, 08:52:06 pm »
Remember guys, be mindful of the altitude cap. A spire will likely be in the mid to high cap area just so it can fit. A Hydro in those situations will either max it out or do nothing. With this, it will hinder the ability to hold the point. Also by forcing it to the cap, you are limiting your own evasion capabilities if you are riding high. You can't simply fly over it. This limits what you can do to counter it, whereas if you approach low angle, exploit it's height weakness, you have much more evasion flexibility. If it goes high, you can keep pace. But ultimately getting the opening engagement will greatly hinder how the Spire can react. If you force it low, the fight is decided as it will bottom out quickly. The importance is on securing that opening and making sure it is in a place that is favorable to you, not the Spire.