Oh boy, another gunner balance thread

[DJ Logicalia]

Right, so in my opinion this is the best way to make gunners "better". I'm not convinced that the class is really that underpowered to begin with, as most of the top teams aren't afraid to bring a gunner, but that's besides the point.

The best idea I've heard comes in two parts. Remove the effectiveness of the buff hammer on all guns and add a new  gunner tool that buffs guns that gunners could take instead of a third ammo type (and, sure, keep the 90s bug on gun buffs right now for this tool)

Idea came from Tipz if I remember correctly, and it's so simple.

Thoughts?

[Lanliss]

So, basically the buff kit cannot bebused on guns, or does very little on guns, and this new buff item does what buff currently does to guns? Sounds good to me.

[BlackenedPies]

I think the solution should be as simple as possible. There is already a nice balance between the classes. Gunners are a specialized class for use on specific guns. The gunner is balanced, the argument is that gun buffs might not be.

An idea that has been brought up regarding gun buffs is changing the gun stats (turning speed, reload, arcs). This would effect each gun very differently, and importantly it could break balance. Changing reload for example doesn't impact all guns equally due to time to empty clips/reload speed ratios. And reload speed matters more for some guns than others.

I think the best solution would be to reduce the buffed damage to between 5 and 10%, or find a different way that gun buffs work that would effect all guns exactly equally.

[HamsterIV]

Since most of the time that 3rd ammunition is not used I could see the benefit of giving the gunner an off the gun tool to augment their gun. However any such tool could be also be used by an engineer or even a pilot who is not expected to get on a gun. To keep things gunner only I think the user should be required to be on the gun while the tool is in use.

How about a buffer ammo that for each second that ammo is selected while on a reload cycle the gun will receive a % buff? A gunner could swap to that ammo type during reloads and swap back to optimal ammo right before completion. If the gunner fails to swap ammo away from buffer ammo it loads vanilla rounds. This way an engineer can't get the benefit of a buffed gun with optimal ammo but a gunner can.

[Lanliss]

Since most of the time that 3rd ammunition is not used I could see the benefit of giving the gunner an off the gun tool to augment their gun. However any such tool could be also be used by an engineer or even a pilot who is not expected to get on a gun. To keep things gunner only I think the user should be required to be on the gun while the tool is in use.

How about a buffer ammo that for each second that ammo is selected while on a reload cycle the gun will receive a % buff? A gunner could swap to that ammo type during reloads and swap back to optimal ammo right before completion. If the gunner fails to swap ammo away from buffer ammo it loads vanilla rounds. This way an engineer can't get the benefit of a buffed gun with optimal ammo but a gunner can.

An engineer or pilot could use it, but would be useless on pilot most of the time, since pilot is generally on helm, and the engie would sacrifice their ammo, which would be very difficult to handle when you are using guns that need something like heavy clip or burst. I think it would balance out well enough.

[Steve CZ]

Hipster Steve likes things as they are now. If you make Muse put anything new into the game, something else will break.

[Lanliss]

Yeah, Logic said in the opening that he thinks it is really fine as it is. It is just that a lot of people do want it changed for some reason.

[BlackenedPies]

The classes are balanced. Gunners have a specialized roll which there's no reason to change. Some guns benefit from a gunner and others don't. The gunner, like all classes, is for utility.

Saying that gun buffs are somewhat OP in relation to the gunner on most guns is a legitimate complaint. I think reducing gun buffs to +10% would be a simple and fair fix.

[Crafeksterty]

I feel like The thing that makes the gunner the least usefull class is because of how having multiple ammo is not like having multiple engie tools.

A pilot only has one position, and that is on the helm. You dont need anyone else on there.
Then you have engineers who can repair and shoot guns.
And gunners who can shoot guns and repair.

How gunners have more ammoe does not make them more effective across all guns versus how engineers are effective across all ships.
This is the braking point where gunners are weak compared to the other two classes.


The stamina thingy magig on the dev app made me want to bring 2 gunners in sacrificing repair.
Cant this be a thing? Because right now, we have less uses of the gunner, i mean there are uses of the gunner. Its not like hes useless, hes just not as effective to be used on all corners like the engie or the pilot.

[Lanliss]

A lot of people complained that the stamina was insane on gunners, and that it basically broke the game. As far as making the gunner usable on all corners, I do not see a reason to. Any class based game you play, medic is gonna be the most important class. You always need a medic/cleric. Sure, shooting needs to be done, but there is no reason to change it so that everyone wants two gunners instead of two engies. The "balance" that most people are looking for is one that allows for one pilot, one engie, one gunner, and the last can be either engie or gunner. Stamina made it too much gunner, and most a lot of people think right now has too much engie. The balance is the problem, and the only solution is to try multiple different ways, test them repeatedly, changing them a little at a time, until everyone is happy. The only issue is that everyone will never be happy. All muse can do is make the most people possible happy.

[Caprontos]

I think the gun buff should be changed from damage to anti-snipe (via more health or a damage reduction mechanic).. As anti-snipe would be useful and it makes ammo the only source to change gun damage which is what I think it should be..

That said I don't know how much it would effect the class balance as.. The spot the gunner isn't used now - is the spots he still wouldn't be useful... as buff balloon or engines or hull is more valuable then useless ammo you won't be using.. right? It may buff him in some spots though. But depending on the new gun buff it may not change if that buff is to useful..

I feel like The thing that makes the gunner the least usefull class is because of how having multiple ammo is not like having multiple engie tools.

A pilot only has one position, and that is on the helm. You dont need anyone else on there.
Then you have engineers who can repair and shoot guns.
And gunners who can shoot guns and repair.

How gunners have more ammoe does not make them more effective across all guns versus how engineers are effective across all ships.
This is the braking point where gunners are weak compared to the other two classes.

The stamina thingy magig on the dev app made me want to bring 2 gunners in sacrificing repair.
Cant this be a thing? Because right now, we have less uses of the gunner, i mean there are uses of the gunner. Its not like hes useless, hes just not as effective to be used on all corners like the engie or the pilot.

Even pilot is exchanged for engi at times.. When you don't needing to move around to much.. Just not as often..

The current issue with ammo is that - as I say elsewhere.. is pretty much range advantage.. Multiple ammo types are more useful the more a gun needs to use multiple ranges effectively..

So all they need to do is figure out some way to make ammo effect gun efficiency in a way beside range but is still useful through out an engagement..

Issue is .. what would actually work..

They did start to try to make ammo specific and less mix bag.. - and that may of helped if it was finished..

[Sarabelle Marlowe]

The trouble seems to about the buffs on guns rather then the class itself. I think it's all a matter of optimizing builds/ships as in relations to roles as far is if the role itself needs a buff or not. There are some builds on ships where having a gunner isn't really needed, and others where it's almost a must. Perhaps new types of ammo would make the importance of having multiple choices on hand help out the gunner role a little more?

My biggest worry is this stamina thing. Right now, there seems to be a decent enough balance with the roles. Sure, a little tweaking could be implemented to help, but it's within the realm of possibility. Stamina? Oh gods, that feels like a headache and a half to even think about trying to balance.

[BlackenedPies]

If we want there to be any realistic chance for Muse to balance gunner vs buff engi then we need a simple solution that changes as little as possible. Simpler is better.

Let's all be clear that this discussion is solely based on how buff engineers outperform gunners on most (but not all) guns. A gunner can often outperform regular engineers but not buff engineers. The issue isn't the gunner or engineer, it's gun buffs. There's no reason to make a major change with how the classes function when the simplest option is changing gun buffs.

There are two options: increase effectiveness of gunner or reduce effectiveness gun buffs (or some combo of the two). Buffing the gunner would require increasing its effectiveness to near, at, or above the equivalent of a 20% damage bonus. This would have to involve changing the class. Reducing gun buffs could be as simple as changing +20% to 10%.

My proposal is decrease damage to +10% and decrease gun buff duration to 10.

[Richard LeMoon]

Thay have already tested changing the buff to increase reload speed rather than flat DPS increase. That is where the 90 second buff comes from. They keep forgetting to revert it.

I emailed a few weeks ago asking when a change to the buff would happen, and if it could combine hull effect with balloon/engine effect and just give the guns faster turning and more health. The answer was they would look into it.

Buff ammo was suggested in the ammo thread a while back. There are a lot of utility ammo types suggested in that thread that would be perfect addons to a gunner, but mostly useless to an engineer.  Oh.... hmmm. I forgot about the Ares clip. Would love to see that tested with lower damage. Maybe 500% damage.

I really think changing the behavior of the hammer to more like an constant use ammo crank would help the balance. All the guns buffs (and more), but not usable by the engineer carrying the tool. No more buff gunners. Extra power to the guns.

[Zirilfer]

Personally, I think the balance is fine, I personally use gunners very little, and the easiest and most balanced way to make gunners more viable is to just add more ammo types (To turn optimally 1 ammo guns into optimally 2 ammo guns) and to add more guns that make gunners more useful. Perhaps a better range increasing ammo than lesmok (with suitable debuffs, to keep lesmok desired) , perhaps another point blank ammo for arming guns, perhaps one that does better permahull damage for when armor goes down. The setup of equipment is fine, it's just that gunner equipment is lacking.