Cap mechanics are dumb

[Arturo Sanchez]

Say good bye, to carried pub matches

Oh Yay, now my winning in crazy king with a scrub team goes from me v enemy team to gg why bother?

Thats dumb.

oh no, a team based game is even more team based now! How dumb right?!

Have fun trying to play this without that stacked crew form. Really narrow-minded if you think that line isn't seething in ignorance of practicality.

If youre talking about the fact that its difficult to work with your allies because they dont listen even when you reach out to them (if you ever do) Thats a common problem in pubs and the enemy team has the same odds. And when you have foreign allies playing ck for the first time while the other team is collectively trying hard? Then they deserve it, not some level 40 dude flying a blenderfish soloimg his way to victory. If your team is bad you will lose and if you dont against a competent team then something is wrong with this game, period.

They... deserve it...

that's the dumbest bollocks I ever heard. If 3 ships can't handle a single blender fish they can't expect to win. In any case, there must always be an option where a single ship can break the odds on pure skill (within moderation).

Because this is the kind of game it is. Skill. No stat boosts based on lvls. every one gets wat everyone has. everyone has access to what everyone else has.

It's the players that utilise it that should win out in the end. A single ship vs 3? Odds are pretty bad as is.


But to completely make it impossible to even put up a fight? That's called being dumb.

[Kamoba]

But it is not impossible, just harder to do, the new mechanic I to encourage people to play together more, encourage people to learn its a team game.

Though there are points to the new system I disagree with, it's not the end of the world.
 

[Arturo Sanchez]

But it is not impossible, just harder to do, the new mechanic I to encourage people to play together more, encourage people to learn its a team game.

Though there are points to the new system I disagree with, it's not the end of the world.
 

THAT WAS WHAT CRAZY KING DID IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I order people to scout points while i delayed enemy ships. I told them to hold a point while intercepted enemy ships and I scouted out enemy points. I told ppl to prove defenses on whether its fighting to cap a capture point.

None of that is viable anymore. Real teamwork is dead.  Its just a bunch of idiots butting heads now.

[Kamoba]

But it is not impossible, just harder to do, the new mechanic I to encourage people to play together more, encourage people to learn its a team game.

Though there are points to the new system I disagree with, it's not the end of the world.
 

THAT WAS WHAT CRAZY KING DID IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I order people to scout points while i delayed enemy ships. I told them to hold a point while intercepted enemy ships and delayed them.

None of that is viable anymore. Real teamwork is dead.

Actually that tactic is still entirely viable, as long as the ship holding the point can hold its own in a 1v1 while you and the third ship (if 3v3) can intercept the enemy well.

[MightyKeb]

Say good bye, to carried pub matches

Oh Yay, now my winning in crazy king with a scrub team goes from me v enemy team to gg why bother?

Thats dumb.

oh no, a team based game is even more team based now! How dumb right?!

Have fun trying to play this without that stacked crew form. Really narrow-minded if you think that line isn't seething in ignorance of practicality.

If youre talking about the fact that its difficult to work with your allies because they dont listen even when you reach out to them (if you ever do) Thats a common problem in pubs and the enemy team has the same odds. And when you have foreign allies playing ck for the first time while the other team is collectively trying hard? Then they deserve it, not some level 40 dude flying a blenderfish soloimg his way to victory. If your team is bad you will lose and if you dont against a competent team then something is wrong with this game, period.

They... deserve it...

that's the dumbest bollocks I ever heard. If 3 ships can't handle a single blender fish they can't expect to win. In any case, there must always be an option where a single ship can break the odds on pure skill (within moderation).

Because this is the kind of game it is. Skill. No stat boosts based on lvls. every one gets wat everyone has. everyone has access to what everyone else has.

It's the players that utilise it that should win out in the end. A single ship vs 3? Odds are pretty bad as is.


But to completely make it impossible to even put up a fight? That's called being dumb.

Notice when I said "competent players" at the end. If they cant get you in a 3v1 they probably should be playing novice matches. But skill is merely an aspect of this game,not the baseline point. I try my hardest to communicate with my allies all the time on the helm and I brief them on how they could contribute to our victory in the most efficient way possible. I may  have success in pubs as often as any vet after the valentines sale, but a non novice team will almost always have a chance against me. Problem is most of the time they dont seem to be communicating.

[Arturo Sanchez]

But it is not impossible, just harder to do, the new mechanic I to encourage people to play together more, encourage people to learn its a team game.

Though there are points to the new system I disagree with, it's not the end of the world.
 

THAT WAS WHAT CRAZY KING DID IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I order people to scout points while i delayed enemy ships. I told them to hold a point while intercepted enemy ships and delayed them.

None of that is viable anymore. Real teamwork is dead.

Actually that tactic is still entirely viable, as long as the ship holding the point can hold its own in a 1v1 while you and the third ship (if 3v3) can intercept the enemy well.

No its not. A scout is useless because all 3 ships can just go to point ahead.

Probing defenses is dumb because a scout can't disrupt the cap in ANY FORM.

The only viable tactic is butting heads like idiots. Its death match Kamo, don't even front.





and lol what? skill is not the baseline?
So a full stacked team isnt because its full of skillful players. Its because they have high levels? I'm increasingly struggling to take any of your points seriously. communication vs situational awareness. and the reaction of the input.

all based on the player's skill. what in the world are you on about?

[Kamoba]

But it is not impossible, just harder to do, the new mechanic I to encourage people to play together more, encourage people to learn its a team game.

Though there are points to the new system I disagree with, it's not the end of the world.
 

THAT WAS WHAT CRAZY KING DID IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I order people to scout points while i delayed enemy ships. I told them to hold a point while intercepted enemy ships and delayed them.

None of that is viable anymore. Real teamwork is dead.

Actually that tactic is still entirely viable, as long as the ship holding the point can hold its own in a 1v1 while you and the third ship (if 3v3) can intercept the enemy well.

No its not. A scout is useless because all 3 ships can just go to point ahead.

Probing defenses is dumb because a scout can't disrupt the cap in ANY FORM.

The only viable tactic is butting heads like idiots. Its death match Kamo, don't even front.

I do agree it is more revolved around a death match feel now, but it just means scouts need to utilise different tactics to be more effective, which is where squid buff shows its powers, squid to point, carro one, tar the other and be a pain until.the cavalry arrive.
You've got the right tactics, they just require a stronger use of tools available..

Which yes I do understand most people will be unable to do as they're newer players with less experience.
But that is the downside to learning curve..

[Arturo Sanchez]

But it is not impossible, just harder to do, the new mechanic I to encourage people to play together more, encourage people to learn its a team game.

Though there are points to the new system I disagree with, it's not the end of the world.
 

THAT WAS WHAT CRAZY KING DID IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I order people to scout points while i delayed enemy ships. I told them to hold a point while intercepted enemy ships and delayed them.

None of that is viable anymore. Real teamwork is dead.

Actually that tactic is still entirely viable, as long as the ship holding the point can hold its own in a 1v1 while you and the third ship (if 3v3) can intercept the enemy well.

No its not. A scout is useless because all 3 ships can just go to point ahead.

Probing defenses is dumb because a scout can't disrupt the cap in ANY FORM.

The only viable tactic is butting heads like idiots. Its death match Kamo, don't even front.

I do agree it is more revolved around a death match feel now, but it just means scouts need to utilise different tactics to be more effective, which is where squid buff shows its powers, squid to point, carro one, tar the other and be a pain until.the cavalry arrive.
You've got the right tactics, they just require a stronger use of tools available..

Which yes I do understand most people will be unable to do as they're newer players with less experience.
But that is the downside to learning curve..

There ARE no scouts. Thats the point. Theres no tactics. You just charge around with bigger numbers. You can't make a lazy points like "utilise different tactics"


oh look the scout is on point first.

Oh wait the whole enemy team has caught up. all that cap progress is moot instantly.

[Kestril]

What?

Before the update CTF and Crazy king was a boring, frustrating affair.

Now these game modes are actually fun.

[Arturo Sanchez]

What?

Before the update CTF and Crazy king was a boring, frustrating affair.

Now these game modes are actually fun.

Guns doesnt have CTF... wtf?

[MightyKeb]

But it is not impossible, just harder to do, the new mechanic I to encourage people to play together more, encourage people to learn its a team game.

Though there are points to the new system I disagree with, it's not the end of the world.
 

THAT WAS WHAT CRAZY KING DID IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I order people to scout points while i delayed enemy ships. I told them to hold a point while intercepted enemy ships and delayed them.

None of that is viable anymore. Real teamwork is dead.

Actually that tactic is still entirely viable, as long as the ship holding the point can hold its own in a 1v1 while you and the third ship (if 3v3) can intercept the enemy well.

No its not. A scout is useless because all 3 ships can just go to point ahead.

Probing defenses is dumb because a scout can't disrupt the cap in ANY FORM.

The only viable tactic is butting heads like idiots. Its death match Kamo, don't even front.





and lol what? skill is not the baseline?
So a full stacked team isnt because its full of skillful players. Its because they have high levels? I'm increasingly struggling to take any of your points seriously. communication vs situational awareness. and the reaction of the input.

all based on the player's skill. what in the world are you on about?

Ceres, you're putting words into my mouth here. This isn't another "stacked teams are unbalanced" discussion yet you relate to the worst possible scenario everytime I try to make a point.


And I think by all based on player's skill, you mean all based on PLAYERS' skill. You will not make a difference in a team stacked with people who have barely any knowledge of the game including your allies and crew versus ones who do a fair bit across the other team.


Unless you let them know what they should be doing. Which is where the communication comes in, you dont fucking sit back and yawn, "My ally sucked l0l", you tell them what they should be doing and IF, IF they listen and respond back then you are thousands of steps ahead of the enemy team. Two cogs cannot function independently, by just hailing them you establish this crucial link. I've crewed for you a few times before and I havent seen you recc any loadouts or talk to your crew about the match at all,  you just expect them to perform optimally without a backup plan.



And about Crazy king: Then why dont you stop rushing for the point? What if you rushed for the ships instead and stopped their advance, disabling one and perhaps getting another one to engage you. Of course, this'd leave the cap vulnerable to the enemy team, but its your teams fault because none of them thought it'd be a good idea to fly for the point in advance nor have you bothered telling them it IS a good idea. See?  Teamwork & Communication.


Also: Kestril obviously meant KOTH

[Lanliss]

Ok, first off. Quit insulting people, anyone who has said an insult. This is a forum. If someone said something that infuriates you, just walk away, cool off, and come back when you can speak like an understanding human being. Arguing is fine, but there is no reason to be childish about it.

Now moving on. I personally liked the way it was before, where you could cap a point ahead of time, and be able to defend it alone. Allowing a larger group o dominate a cap pount seems unreasonable. I would live to see that mechanic in KOTH, but it does violate the current tactics for CK. Yes, people can come up with new tactics, but you should not force them to scrap everything they know to do that. The addition of the Mino will force people to come up with new tactics, but old tactics are still viable. The killing for points mechanic fills this role fine, without forcing anyone to scrap previous tactics.

And none of this argument really applies to KOTH because it is just one point. Not a lot of tactic tongo into that, beyond reach the point, stay alive. Of course, the new majority rule would be amazing in KOTH, because now a 2v2 could turn the tide, as long as they can get a kill. No longer can that one tanky pyra hold the point alone until the ally returns. This makes sense in KOTH.

To finalize, this community is a village(yes I will use that analogy anytime I talk about this community). You will see everyone again tomorrow, so it is best not to alienate them today.

[Arturo Sanchez]

But it is not impossible, just harder to do, the new mechanic I to encourage people to play together more, encourage people to learn its a team game.

Though there are points to the new system I disagree with, it's not the end of the world.
 

THAT WAS WHAT CRAZY KING DID IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I order people to scout points while i delayed enemy ships. I told them to hold a point while intercepted enemy ships and delayed them.

None of that is viable anymore. Real teamwork is dead.

Actually that tactic is still entirely viable, as long as the ship holding the point can hold its own in a 1v1 while you and the third ship (if 3v3) can intercept the enemy well.

No its not. A scout is useless because all 3 ships can just go to point ahead.

Probing defenses is dumb because a scout can't disrupt the cap in ANY FORM.

The only viable tactic is butting heads like idiots. Its death match Kamo, don't even front.





and lol what? skill is not the baseline?
So a full stacked team isnt because its full of skillful players. Its because they have high levels? I'm increasingly struggling to take any of your points seriously. communication vs situational awareness. and the reaction of the input.

all based on the player's skill. what in the world are you on about?

Ceres, you're putting words into my mouth here. This isn't another "stacked teams are unbalanced" discussion yet you relate to the worst possible scenario everytime I try to make a point.


And I think by all based on player's skill, you mean all based on PLAYERS' skill. You will not make a difference in a team stacked with people who have barely any knowledge of the game including your allies and crew versus ones who do a fair bit across the other team.


Unless you let them know what they should be doing. Which is where the communication comes in, you dont fucking sit back and yawn, "My ally sucked l0l", you tell them what they should be doing and IF, IF they listen and respond back then you are thousands of steps ahead of the enemy team. Two cogs cannot function independently, by just hailing them you establish this crucial link. I've crewed for you a few times before and I havent seen you recc any loadouts or talk to your crew about the match at all,  you just expect them to perform optimally without a backup plan.



And about Crazy king: Then why dont you stop rushing for the point? What if you rushed for the ships instead and stopped their advance, disabling one and perhaps getting another one to engage you. Of course, this'd leave the cap vulnerable to the enemy team, but its your teams fault because none of them thought it'd be a good idea to fly for the point in advance nor have you bothered telling them it IS a good idea. See?  Teamwork & Communication.


Also: Kestril obviously meant KOTH

You can't just ignore a possible scenario to prove a point. Because it makes your point a non point.

You work around minimising the worst possible scenarios. To merely say Oh the worst possible scenario? Thats unlikely to happen, hence its unimportant.

Keb, I got a warning for YELLING over and over to noobs to do the mechanics of any given mode. To employ common sense tactics. To play WELL by doing x, y and z. You are talking to the wrong person when it comes to telling people to communicate. I'm pretty freakin vocal when shit isn't being done.

"stop rushing to the point."

When your team is a team of people that can't navigate a map your only saving grace is you going ahead of the enemy teams to delay or block or cap before the enemy press their advantage.

How do you expect a decent ship to stand a chance against average players when that ONE SHIP is the only ONLY SHIP doing any of the competing. While teammates listlessly float around uselessly.

If this mode really wants coordination (of idiots bashing heads into each other from point to point). This mode NEEDS a level requirement.


THINK about what you're saying keb because you're just bringing in points that already been said ad having this crap go in circles as points are reiterrated over and over and going NOWHERE.

No counter argument is being made against my points besides the repetition of older points that have already been dealt with. Its starting to get super ridiculous.



EVEN DEATH MATCH can be carried by one ship. Its highly unlikely but the possibility is there.

In this new mode, its made entirely impossible for completely unjustifiable reasons.



So. Lets get right to the core of the issue. WHY IS IT SO BAD FOR IT TO BE POSSIBLE FOR ONE SHIP TO CARRY A MATCH, despite how difficult and how awesomely unlikely that is? Why is wanting to win despite unlikely odds such a bad thing to have?


The alternative is systematic ragequits and surrenders. If theres 0% chance of winning why the hell would one even bother with it? Why play at all?

because the impression I'm getting from kamo and keb is give up and fight for nothing. You think any player would ever waste their time with that bollocks? Please, clarify your points by saying yes. Its the only way to justify yourselves.

[Caprontos]

I am not against the caping changes.. I don't really like points for kills though as I feel that may cause confusion to newer players.. who already don't know what CP is and if they see points for kills they will think kills matter.. (That said a mode based around points for kills could be fun... The more ships a ship kills the more points its worth.. every ship for itself... woo.. idk)..

--
A possible issue with the new capping changes though is it might make spawn advantage on points that much bigger...

Lets say in Raid Everyone is going to D.. Everyone gets to D and blue loses a ship - Red is very likely to take the point now if everyone knows how cp works on each team..

Even if blue kills a red ship to even the odds, red can get back quicker, and it isn't worth the effort for blue to try to rush back..

So spawns should be reconsidered so that they are more evenly spaced.. so all points have an equal opportunity for each team to get all ships back to a point as fast as each other..

Right now this is less an issue because, Only one blue ship has to be at D to stop it.. Maybe it won't be as bad as I think though..

---
Personally I don't think removing one ship being able to drag out a lost match longer, isn't that bad a thing.. Sure you might actually win (I've been in plenty of matches were we did.. and plenty where I wish we'd just lose so it could end).. but the reason people dislike CP and CK even more is it takes so long to complete a game.. So if the capping rule changes decrease the time (Which it sounds like it has to much probably), Then that's not that bad a thing.. If it means we get more of it..

It will turn CP's in to a bit more of a brawl since, there is no reason to rush a point alone.. and will instead be knocking out one ship then dealing with the other while taking the point.... Cause you can't block it.. but CK's will only lose some tactics.. and probably make other ones even more useful (ie disabling someone and damaging them but not killing them.. so you can clear them from the next point quicker).. But that requires more teamwork which as stated, isn't always a thing in random lobbies..

[Lanliss]

I do not know how they are setting it up now, but maybe they could make it so that you cap at different speeds. Three ships with no opposition could cap at 150% of current cap speed, two ships with no opposition caps at current speed, same as three with 1 ship opposition. 2v3 makes 50%current speed, same as 1 with no challenge, or 2 with 1ship challenge. Finally you have the 3v3 standstill.

EDIT: as a matter of fact, I am gonna email muse on this. Just in case.