Level inflation and "noob problem"

[Hoja Lateralus]

Recently I've noticed a player who has 2 matches played and was lvl 1/2/3. Now with 1000 bonus exp for won match people lvl faster than ever, and I don't mind when that's a lvl30 going up, but this is a real problem when new players lvl up so fast that they remain novice for like a day or two. I've seen a guy with 9 matches played who had lvl7 in one class, which means that few more matches and he'll be out of novice, probably knowing nothing. I see lvl10-15 players not knowing that you can hit main engine in pyramidion from the bottom. There's a huge inflation of levels nowadays, which partially divided the community between pre-matchmakers and matchmakers. Personally I even accused (wrongly) one player of farming achievements because having played 1000 matches he had lvls 45/18/30-something. In comparison I, playing almost exclusively in old system, minding the achievements, having played 1500 matches didn't gain so high levels. I may sound like an arrogant douche but this shows that lvl45 and word "veteran" means much less nowadays. But other thing is much more important: new players lvl up fast, which means they get out of novice fast without much skill, and the newer players who just bought the game don't have anyone to play with, novice lobbies are abandoned. Do you know what happens then? Level2 gunner joining your crew. We all know the pain of that and we wish we never have had that kind of situation. This is bad for both new players as the veterans. That's why it is of greatest importance to fix that problem.

Firstly, as I mentioned in this* thread I plead for increasing novice lvl cap to at least lvl10 and preferably higher. This will increase the life of novice lobbies, and let me remind you that novice players can join advanced lobbies anyways. My point is explained in the given thread.

Secondly, reduce experience boost for won match from 1000 to 500. This will still be enough, but it will decrease the rapid lvl increase of new players.

Last but not least, probably the most radical solution, forbid players with match count below 50 (preferably higher) from joining advanced lobbies. This will let the community take some breath and not fear about the most unexperienced players joining our games.

I will be also sending this to devs in a minute. Lend me your thoughts on this.

*https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5114.msg84294.html#msg84294

[Schwalbe]

Last but not least, probably the most radical solution, forbid players with match count below 50 (preferably higher) from joining advanced lobbies. This will let the community take some breath and not fear about the most unexperienced players joining our games.

This is the only thing I disagree with. I mean - this is a problem, but having played 50 unorganised matches might be a turn off as well. Also, I would not have for example opportunity to train in real battle and show real fun to ryedstar for example.

Still I agree that new players are mostly a pain in the ass. Yet I don't think this is a reasonable solution. On the other hand - I don't have other proposition.

[Kamoba]

Pretty much what I brought up recently here:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5601.0.html

Yes it is a problem, yes something needs to change...

I wonder.. What if "Novice" was tied to each class individually.
For example, you spend a day playing as engineer, reach level 10 and any further matches as an engineer would be non-novice, but gunner and pilot would be locked and you'd have to play as them in novice until you reached level X.

[BlackenedPies]

I watched one of my crew members with 0 matches level up to lvl 4 after one match.

I'm not necessarily opposed to novices playing in regular matches, but lvl 7 is too early to kick them out of novice. And of course they want to play on regular matches instead of novice. Maybe by default put novices in novice matches, but if there aren't any available then push them into regular. Of course they can still join their friends in regular. I played novice until I wasn't allowed to anymore.

Also lets improve the default ship loadouts. Some of them just don't make sense. There are well established metas for every ship, why not put those in the default loadouts? Player made default loadouts.

[Ayetach]

Still I agree that new players are mostly a pain in the ass. Yet I don't think this is a reasonable solution. On the other hand - I don't have other proposition.

Usually im willing to work with these new players and introduce them to the various aspect of the game as the match continues. Depending on my role i would adjust my play style to suit the needs of working with new players; and yes new players are a flip of the coin, i play plenty of pub matches and im fully aware of this. Sometimes its not easy to get through to them.

The devs designed this manner of development so that players can help each other out if they can help it, and truthfully its not always sunshine but more exposure over time tends to show it helps out a lot of new players too, irrespective of how many matches theyve played 5 or 500.

Ultimately its not about matches played or what level youre at, its about comprehending the game and that is very key to improving.

[DJ Logicalia]

It is way too easy to level up in the new system. I agree entirely. I didn't foresee this issue at all, in fact, I thought it would make the level system more meaningful, but some how it's now more arbitrary. This isn't anyone's fault, but something has to be done about it

[Schwalbe]

Still I agree that new players are mostly a pain in the ass. Yet I don't think this is a reasonable solution. On the other hand - I don't have other proposition.

Usually im willing to work with these new players and introduce them to the various aspect of the game as the match continues. Depending on my role i would adjust my play style to suit the needs of working with new players; and yes new players are a flip of the coin, i play plenty of pub matches and im fully aware of this. Sometimes its not easy to get through to them.

The devs designed this manner of development so that players can help each other out if they can help it, and truthfully its not always sunshine but more exposure over time tends to show it helps out a lot of new players too, irrespective of how many matches theyve played 5 or 500.

Don't get me wrong. I always try to teach. But many times they don't give a shit.
Lately I've found one player, which I'm regularly teaching how things in this game work.

About

Ultimately its not about matches played or what level youre at, its about comprehending the game and that is very key to improving.

I disagree.
The more you play, the more chances to notice, practice and improve you have.

[Crafeksterty]

Uh... i agree to both statements above.

Some people find an interrest to the game because they started off wanting to teamwork when they started playing the game, or some other case.
While others dont know what they are stepping into and its just sheer luck that they will have a good time and thus continuing to play or better themselves.

The levels of this game has become so arbitrary that i cant even judge a player. Not directly but just for the expectation.
A level 10 or 25 may be utter crap while a level 2 can be a gift from god. It all boils down to the player, which it should but at the same time in a game where you pair up with random people (pubs) it is expected there should be some kind of showcase of skill level. Even a lvl 10 clan member can be fully trusted as a gunner on a sniping match. But a level 10 pub (pub where you get most of your games when you want it) is 50/50 even if hes 40.

Would be nice for anyone above 40 with any class get the ability to see matches played in the lobby of each player. But even that is a radical solution as it can also go to the same problem as ive stated.

[Hoja Lateralus]

I wonder.. What if "Novice" was tied to each class individually.
For example, you spend a day playing as engineer, reach level 10 and any further matches as an engineer would be non-novice, but gunner and pilot would be locked and you'd have to play as them in novice until you reached level X.

This have been brought and the counter-argument is usually that higher level players can abuse their power, because they may know more about the game. I'll give you example 'ad absurdum' - imagine Geo going to a novice game as an engineer.

Don't get me wrong. I always try to teach. But many times they don't give a shit.
Lately I've found one player, which I'm regularly teaching how things in this game work.

Exactly, that's a problem. I don't mind if someone's willing to LISTEN. I had a gunner that was able to read and even respond on the chat and he went to the far-left gun on pyramidion (the one upstairs, the one no one uses 95% of the time, at least) despite me trying to show him the way to the front guns. After 5 minutes I stopped, reported him, blocked and just hoped I'll never have to play with him again. That will sound rude, but perhaps when devs will be flooded with such reports, they will at least 'notice' the problem.

The levels of this game has become so arbitrary that i cant even judge a player. Not directly but just for the expectation.
A level 10 or 25 may be utter crap while a level 2 can be a gift from god. It all boils down to the player, which it should but at the same time in a game where you pair up with random people (pubs) it is expected there should be some kind of showcase of skill level. Even a lvl 10 clan member can be fully trusted as a gunner on a sniping match. But a level 10 pub (pub where you get most of your games when you want it) is 50/50 even if hes 40.

That reminds me that when I was a new player the sheer sight of a lvl45 was frightening. Now when players <lvl10 see one they go "Oh, I guess they're pretty good". As I said, 1000 matches can easily get you a lvl45 in one class.
For me the match count is so far the best indicator. My friend conducted an experiment when he told everyone with match count below 100 to go off the ship. Everytime such person stayed - we were miserable.

[Schwalbe]

My example now. In 3-4 matches I gathered 20k of EXP. Yup - 20-fucking-thousand. I achieved something that in previous leveling system would take me at least 50 matches. Every match is another trial, another occasion to practice, and to notice why something is wrong.

To be exact. I'll repeat it once bloody more.
A day before patch 1.3.8 was introduced, I was 3-3-3, so, on the brink of leaving the novicehood. I had played more than 130 matches at that moment, so, it might be said that I already spent some fair amount of time in game. So, when 1.3.8 came, I suddenly became 7-10-9 player, without a match played since 1.3.7, and without any warning - wasn't considered novice anymore. Which is silly, as I still were.

Now, to get levels like 7-10-9, players need much less matches to play. And hence - have much less opportunities to learn.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

You guys do know that if you get achievements, you level up faster right? So it doesn't matter what you do, eventually noobs will reach a peak and be forced to grind matches. Heck I've seen this now and 1k or so XP is piddles compared to what you need to level up in the higher ranks. You want to do it fast? Grind achievements. If not, then you'll be grinding matches for awhile.

[Schwalbe]

Right, but the problem is when you have very small levels - the leveling is incredibly fast, making levels even more unreliable... that's the damn point...

Edit: How about some modifier of EXP gain for novices? Or generally depending on levels somehow?

[Hoja Lateralus]

So leveling is "too slow"? With the current percantage of new players victory isn't something really hard (when you have a ship filled with trusted crew). The highest lvl requires 45 000 experience, which is 45 won matches. Let's assume that matchmaker works 'prefectly' and win ratio is 50%. That's 90 matches. Assuming you play deathmatches, giving around 30 minutes for match that's 45 hours of game (without achievements). Say you are playing one hour a day for whole week that's below 7 weeks. For the 'hardest' level, without achievements, achieved by winning matches. Compare it to some of the high level achievements, such as 2k spot, perfect wins, 4v4 map achievements, 3v3 CK achievements etc.

Right, but the problem is when you have very small levels - the leveling is incredibly fast, making levels even more unreliable... that's the damn point...

Edit: How about some modifier of EXP gain for novices? Or generally depending on levels somehow?

Exactly. When you get 1k for won match, a good winstreak can get you a level or two. Also tutorial achievement gives you 1k exp. If you mind the achievements you can literally go to lvl20 within weeks (sadly, often with skills of pre-matchmaking lvl3 or 4), and since novice lvl cap is 7 (sic!) this makes novice games non-existent and therefore novice players must join advanced lobbies and annoy everyone.

[Lanliss]

I have tossed this around in my head for a little while, trying to think of some way to balance everything off, without making anyone overpowered.

My idea is that you could have a set of novice achievments. You cannot leave novice until you complete a certain number of these. Maybe have fifty of them, and completing 30 allows you to leave novice matches. These can be thing like, block 100 fires with chem spray or, break 20 ship armor using piercing weapons. Also the very important "kill 10 ships with mortars without hitting armor". The goal of these would be to teach novice players things that veterans take on instinct. Why wouldn't a noob realize that a ship covered in chem spray is way safer than a bunch of people spraying extinguishers? Just basic rules that we used to not even think we needed to tell people? Of course the number of achievments and the required percentage would be flexible.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

None of you have ever played an MMO have you? The initial levels in those go real fast. It is meant to be that way to keep attention of the players. Leveling up however, is usually accompanied by flashes or special effects + music. It strokes the psyche of the player to think they've accomplished something.

You don't want slow leveling early on or you'll have people feeling like the game is ultra grindy and quitting.