Main > General Discussion

Ship Selection Phase Idea (Hephaestus Challenge Season 2)

<< < (2/8) > >>

Dementio:

--- Quote from: Puppy Fur on February 14, 2015, 04:31:25 pm ---Some other games have a 'selection phase' where they pick which decks or heroes are going to be played and they do so in a set order.

--- End quote ---

A huge difference between these games and Guns of Icarus is that they have more stuff to choose from while often only being able to choose it once. I am not sure if I want this system in 2v2's with only 7 ships in total to choose from.

Ignoring the banning feature for the moment the picking system very likely leads to the following two scenarios:
A team will bring the ship the ship combination they are comfortable with, regardless of the enemy or take one ship they are sure can work on that map (e.g.: Metamidion on Paritan is a solid choice) while the second ship is a pure counter that may or may not work as well with the first chosen ship.

But the selection order could also be better than nothing, even though I can't remember any problems other than last second switching, which very rarely happens, but still should be looked at by the refs so when a Ready Up happens, changing ship is not allowed.

My greatest concern is the banning feature.

--- Quote from: Puppy Fur on February 14, 2015, 04:31:25 pm ---Some games also have a banning phase. This allows for a lot of different gameplay but also changes up the meta to make matches much different then the same old thing. Now this creates a harder challenge for players. They'll have to think of combos they want and don't want to face and work around this. They can change up the game before it even starts.

--- End quote ---

The Meta that people often refer to consists of individual ships instead of ship combination. What I see happening is that Pyramidions and Goldfish will be banned more than any other ship and that might not be healthy for the "Meta".
Thralls showed excellent gameplay by going Metamidion and Blenderfish on Dunes and eliminating multiple long range oriented ship combinations. This is and was never the Meta of Dunes as far as I can remember, yet the banning system would have denied such a beautiful show.
Holy Roman Army appeared out of nowhere and killed everything with easy focus fire of Metamidion and Gat/Carro Pyramidion, a combination nobody used before and was not in the Meta.
Mandarians practised forever to get their double Metajunker to work and won an entire tournament without changing ships even once.

The point I want to get to is that the competitive playerbase might not be active enough for the banning feature. Deny the Mandariand their Metajunker and what would have been left? And so on.
Another main difference between the games you were referring to and Guns of Icarus is "Classes and Roles". In Guns of Icarus you have Pyramidions that can be a kill ship or support ship or the assassing Squid and bait Squid and some more stuff. Banning a Pyramidion is too generalized. It's almost as if one was saying "we are banning all fighter classes" or "we are banning all blue characters". A ship is dependend on it's loadout. This of course means that more stuff can be banned at once, which I am kind of ok as long as it isn't too general. This would actually allow people to  force the other team to go into a specific direction. But this also means that people will deny map specific stuff "I am gonna deny this and that close range ship on Paritan so the enemy has to go long range".

"They have to"? They most likely have to, yes, or come up with a new idea on the spot. The inactivity in the competitive scene I mentioned earlier does lead to certain teams not being practised with certain stuff. I remember one certain team that we fought against with long range ships on dunes, after winning one of the captains told me "We actually don't know what to do in long range". Had the Mandarians practised other ships than the Metajunker, who knows if they or their crew had been remotely as good as they were? And how many teams and clans stay or can stay active after two or three tournaments?

One more note on the Meta is that I actually don't think there is one in this game. Thralls showed Spire can work just fine, with double lesmok Gatling and Heavy Flak no less. Overwatch and SPQR showed some Squid business. Mandarians used to win everything with Metajunker, even though nobody wants to even consider it once there is one Blenderfish or Galleon with at least one Lumberjack. People are just either not creative, determined, daring or active enough to have a huge impact on the Meta that can change people's minds.

To conclude all of the above, I say that the picking order might be better than nothing, but also the argument of "Why change a working system?" still stands. Banning entire ships is too general as, in my opinion, the loadouts matter more and banning loadouts will still allow some kind of flexibility for some teams, although teams might not be active enough to get a chance to practise anything too special in which case banning a ship does leave a very deep cut. Furthermore, people just have to do something else in order to "change" the Meta or "create" a new Meta.



This is not the end though for there is more thought!
Depending if the order matters in which captains are on their side, banning a ship can be more targeted. For example, if I am the captain of the first ship and we are in phase one the enemy team can casually ban my most favourite Mobula and possibly reduce a significant amount of our strength. And that can happen against every team for every match. In the worst case scenario I am not able to fly the ship I am most practised it.

You mentioned changing the Meta so there won't be the "same old thing". Last hepheastus challenge the only same old thing was a Metamidion paired with ships that were not often seen as their ally (Gat/Carro Pyramidion, long/mid range Mobula). The Meta has changed between the first Hepheastus Cahllenge and the tournament before it.
Also it is to be considered what kind of tournament this tournament should be: One in which people fight at their best against the enemies best or one that possibly forces both teams to go subpar ship combination they are not as practised with just to please the audience, considering, as I previously mentioned, the Meta has changed between tournaments so it isn't the necessarily the "same old thing". The SCS or scrims with other teams/clans and even the iron fork are great places to practise something new and experiment, so is it necessary for this tournament to force this?



That should be about everything I have to say to this topic.

Jub Jub:
The immediate problem I see with any ship picking system, is that this game is just too small for it, both competitive team-wise, and game mechanics-wise. Game-wise there are only 7 ships available to choose from (Pyramidion, Junker, Mobula, Goldfish, Galleon, Spire, and Squid, respectfully). Of these, only really 5 of them are viable for competitive play: Pyramidion, Junker, Mobula, Goldfish, and Galleon. While competitive teams have brought Spires and Squids in the past, and done quite well with them, usually they're not advised, just do to their "easy to kill" nature. Games that have a "Pick Order" draft for their competitive games (LoL and Dota 2 come to mind) have tens of heros/champions/whatever to choose from, and having a pick-order simply curtails the number of choices teams can make, whereas in GoI these same pick-orders/ship banning could drastically hinder a team.

Which brings me to the next point: GoI doesn't have all that large of a competitive scene to begin with, and with fairly limited selection of ships to choose from, many teams just focus on flying one or two specific ships well together. Having this ship-banning system could very easily screw over your opponent unfairly. For example, lets say in the finals of Sky League (picking the last major competitive event I was not a participant of, to reduce any bias I might have) the Mandarins banned Rydr from using Pyramidions, and Rydr banned the Mandarins from using Junkers. Two teams that near-perfected their respective ships would of been reduced to a potato-fight of ships that they're not used to flying, and that's in a "best case" scenario. Two highly ranked teams neutralizing one another. What would happen if Team A can effectively fly and practice with Pyramidions, Junkers, Galleons, and Goldfish, and Team B can only effectively fly and practice with Pyramidions and Goldfish. While all of these ships can work well together, if Team A simply bans Pyramidions one match for Team B, and then Goldfish the next match, that could greatly weaken Team B's chances of winning, even if they would have won otherwise, had they been able to fly ships that they had practiced and trained on.


--- Quote from: c-ponter on February 14, 2015, 05:15:02 pm ---Yay, I think we have needed something like this for a while, the kind of phase like this was the R&D where they mades or team 1 picks 1 ship, team 2 picks both then team 1 picks their final ship, made for some interesting combos and prevented hard counters for the most part as I'd you didn't know both enemy ships until you had picked at least 1 of your own.

--- End quote ---
To reply to this: the R&D Invitational did not have a pick-order system. The one you're describing sounds like the one Skrimskraw was testing out for the Sunday Community Skirmish, which had its own set of problems. Team A picks 1 ship, Team B picks 2 ships, and then Team A picks 1 ship seems fine in theory. But in actuality, Team A picks 1 ship they "hope" will be good on the map and can only guess as to what Team B will take to counter them. Team B picks 2 ships that can counter Team A's first ship, and whatever they think could be Team A's second ship. This leaves Team A with a problem while picking their second, and last ship, choose a ship that works well with their teammate's ship, or a ship that can hopefully counter both of Team B's ships. Even swapping this system around for each match still leaves the team that had the first ship pick on match 1 as the eventual victor.

Obviously none of this takes skill into account, and this game is all about skill, but personally forcing a team to limit themselves doesn't seem right to me. Lobby Swap Games in competitive are an unfortunately annoying aspect of competitive games in this game, but also a necessary evil, to me, when you consider the other options such as banning ships or giving one team an inherent advantage over another team based solely on what order they pick their ships.   

Sammy B. T.:
I certainly wouldn't play in this event as I told you before. Ship banning is beyond terrible in this game. You've been playing too much Dota.

Puppy Fur:
One of the main worries is that there are only 7 different ships to choose from. I personally feel that's still a decent pool and 1 being removed shouldn't destroy a team (and if it does, I don't think that they should be winning competitive :P). There are a few worries with the system and before it ever gets implemented, if it does at all, I'd like to try it out for a weekend and see how it goes and if anything is too big of an issue it won't be implemented.

Puppy Fur:

--- Quote from: Sammy B. T. on February 14, 2015, 07:38:34 pm ---I certainly wouldn't play in this event as I told you before. Ship banning is beyond terrible in this game. You've been playing too much Dota.

--- End quote ---
This is in many, many games. Personal claims toward me should be left out of this post, thank you.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page