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Another gunner fix proposal - multi-tiered approach needed.

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obliviondoll:
So... I've been thinking about this off and on, while playing the game, and while not playing.

As a pilot, you will be the only player adequately equipped to fulfill the role of pilot. You need your 3 piloting tool slots for the ability to vary your ship's performance profile. Only one person may be on the helm at any time, so more than one pilot is a waste of those extra tools, which can mostly only be used when the player is on the helm. As a non-pilot, there's a very limited set of piloting tools to choose from and use effectively (Basically only Spyglass, but technically Rangfinder SHOULD be an option too).

As an Engineer, you will be able to fill multiple support roles on board the ship. Firefighting and damage control are both key aspects of an Engineer's role, and buffing components is sometimes a primary function as well, depending on the Engineer's build. As a non-Engineer, you're almost required to take a repair tool (Spanner/Mallet/Wrench) because keeping the ship alive is everyone's job.

As a Gunner, your primary role is to fire guns. This role can be fairly efficiently filled by any crew member. Gunners are "more effective" in the sense that they can man a variety of guns effectively, or they can use those rare guns where multiple ammo types are viable more effectively than any other single crew member. Any player moving about on a ship with mostly-similar weapons can perform competently as a Gunner without actually BEING a Gunner. Any crew member with an assigned area and only one or two weapon types in their designated zone can fill the role of Gunner with only one ammo type.

So, what's causing this disparity between classes? There are several problems. Lets look at each in turn, and address them. Some of the problems are relatively complex, and so are my solutions. I also have a tendency to overdo things, so please bear with my walls of text.

1. Problem.
Lets look at the difference in timing between buffing a gun and loading specialist ammo into a gun. An Engineer can buff a gun, then pre-buff until it only needs one more hit to be buffed a second time. If the Engineer is 0.1s late returning to the gun, the damage output is only reduced for that 0.1s window. If they're late by a whole second, the damage output is still only reduced for that 1s window where the gun is firing without a buff. If the buff wears off during a reload, this loss of damage is somewhat mitigated.

On the other hand, when a GUNNER is late, the gun has finished reloading. It doesn't matter if you're late by a whole second, or just a tenth of one. When you get back, your options are to fire AN ENTIRE CLIP with a loss of firepower, or to RELOAD THE GUN AGAIN AND TRY TO GET THE RIGHT TIMING. Not only have you lost whatever time you spent away from the already-loaded gun, but you're also either sacrificing ALL of the gun's potential firepower for the time it takes to reload, or firing at reduced capability until your next reload.

1. Solution.
Let the Gunner* change ammo types ANY TIME DURING THE RELOAD. Every time a gun is reloaded - EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Manned or unmanned, manned by someone with the current ammo type or not - the gun should load standard ammo. When a Gunner selects an ammo type, a timer is begun. When the reload OR that timer completes - whichever comes first - the new ammo type is locked in. Abandoning the weapon or switchng to a new ammo type will reset the timer.

*Gunner as in "player manning the gun and loading ammo", not necessarily a player with the Gunner class selected

With this proposed change, the current routines of players will remain entirely viable. A gunner can leave their gun as it starts reloading, let it reload on standard ammo up to the last 0.1s of the reload time, then suddenly throw Lochnagar or Burst Ammo in at the last second. BUT they can ALSO now lock that ammo type in at the BEGINNING of the reload, and walk off to do something else WITHOUT losing an entire reload plus more for missing their window. Switching ammo type on a loaded gun will reload the gun, much like it already does. Once you've waited out the ammo select timer, you don't have to stay on the gun to make sure it loads. And again, you can do what people already do and use the ammo switch to initiate a reload, leave the gun, then return at the last second to set your chosen ammo type just before the reload completes. You can ALSO switch ammo type, lock that ammo in, then walk away and be free to come back in your own time, knowing the right ammo will be there waiting when you get back.

2. Problem.
Most weapons only benefit from one ammo type. It's not entirely true, but it's close enough to be worth saying. Lumberjacks are good with a lot of different ammo types, each filling a different purpose. Hwachas gain different advantages from Heavy Clip or Burst Ammo. But with a lot of guns, you want to be relying heavily on one ammo type in almost every situation. Some guns might benefit from multiple ammo types, but in such similar ways that it doesn't really matter which you choose. Also, many weapons simply don't benefit ENOUGH from a change of ammo to be concerned if you don't have the right type to load.

2. Solution.
One part of this problem can be addressed by using the same mechanic proposed for problem 1. Add in a recognition of manual vs. automatic loading. At the moment, guns all have a fixed reload speed depending on the weapon. Once reloading is initiated, the gun will automatically reload by itself, with no input from a player. What if locking in an ammo type gave a small (10 - 20%) reduction to the weapon's reload time?

NOTE: I'd lean towards 10% in an "absolute" reduction where the timer is shortened based on the total reload time. If it's only shortening the reload time by X% of remaining time, I'd want the bonus to be larger, at least 15%

How does this fix things? This proposed change adds an extra incentive to using specialist ammo over the default ammo type. If you're not carrying ammo that suits a gun, you won't want to be manning that gun when it reloads, because you'll have to choose between loading a poor choice of ammo or waiting longer before firing.

In order to not overly penalise players who aren't gunners, reload speed could be improved by simply being on the gun for the required duration to lock in an ammo type even if using standard ammo. This could open the door for specialist ammo types to have a reload speed buff as one of their benefits over standard ammo.

3. Problem.
Buff tools. Simply put, the benefit of using a buff tool on a gun is too large in comparison to using the right ammo type for the situation. Additionally, a buff tool is a guaranteed improvement, where ammo types have the potential to make some guns less effective (Flamethrower + Lochnagar, for an extreme example). We've already addressed the lack of penalty when mistiming a buff, but that's a weakness of ammo types, not an undeserved strength of the buff tool.

3. Solution.
The buff tool's effectiveness on weapons needs to be rethought in some manner. The best solution I can think of is to quite thoroughly change how the buff tool works on a gun. Instead of buffing the weapon itself for a limited time, buffing the gun could buff the ammo inside it. This would be an indefinite buff, not timed. When the buff is completed, the bar wouldn't be a timer, but an ammo count. As shots are fired, it decreases, until the gun is empty. If you reload, the buff is reset (neither emptying nor reloading should remove pre-buffing, however, only an active buff).

Another alternative would be to straight-up nerf (again) the effectiveness of the buff tool on weapons, but for obvious reasons, I'm not a big fan of this idea. Buff tools need to benefit weapons in order to maintain damage output at a sensible level. It could also be used to buff reload speed, turn speed or rate of fire instead of raw damage output. Again, with the game being balanced how it is, I favour other proposals more.

Another, also less ideal, but possibly slightly more viable alternative, would be to buff all weapons to deal more damage (at least half the buff currently given by the buff hammer), and to make the buff tool provide guns with additional HP instead of a damage increase. While not as bad as nerfing the buff hammer, I still favour changing the mechanics of weapon buffs.

Obviously, while I've put a lot of thought into this post, I haven't addressed how difficult it would be to implement my proposal. I am suggesting quite significant alterations to core mechanics in the game, and while I believe these changes would benefit the game, it's entirely possible they would be impractical to actually put into effect. I hope for these suggestions to be considered by all (and picked apart by anyone who sees any significant holes in my logic). As much as I personally like the suggestions I've made, at the end of the day, even if the ideas are sound, it's down to whether Muse (and the Unity engine) can actually make it happen. It might be a terrible idea purely on the basis of impracticality from a programming perspective. I would hope not, but I don't know the inner workings of the game's code, so I can't say for sure either way.

Crafeksterty:
You need to play the game more because


--- Quote ---Let the Gunner* change ammo types ANY TIME DURING THE RELOAD. Every time a gun is reloaded - EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Manned or unmanned, manned by someone with the current ammo type or not - the gun should load standard ammo. When a Gunner selects an ammo type, a timer is begun. When the reload OR that timer completes - whichever comes first - the new ammo type is locked in. Abandoning the weapon or switchng to a new ammo type will reset the timer.
--- End quote ---

Is how it is currently. Just simple.

In another note, all classes are equal, the only thing different is how many slots they have. So no exclusive functions for each class.
The real fix should stay on either a change in the tools or a new tool type for the gunner. Pilots have 2 tool types. Engineers have 3. Gunners only have one. Which is the real problem.

Sprayer:
By reading her text past that paragraph it becomes clear that she didn't mean what she literally wrote. (assuming female cuz "obliviondoll" seems a female name to me) She suggested a mechanic that allows to change the ammo type whithout the need to man the gun at the time of reload completion by adding an option to change the ammo at the start of the reload.

I didn't exactly get how the 2nd solution is supposed to impact on the 2nd problem - are you suggesting "changing the ammo type should reduce reload times" or "staying on the gun long enough for the lock in timer should reduce reload time"?

On the 3rd thing: buffing the clip instead of the gun for a fixed timer is a new suggestion as far as I know. However, it'd make the buff tool viability very inconsistent among all guns. Buffing a gatling would yield a bigger gain per invested time than buffing any lower ammo gun. Of course, that is assuming you still would need 8 buff hammer hits to buff any gun. Also this would probably break another of muses paradigms and muse loves their paradims to the grave.

obliviondoll:

--- Quote from: Crafeksterty on November 30, 2014, 02:15:19 am ---You need to play the game more because


--- Quote ---Let the Gunner* change ammo types ANY TIME DURING THE RELOAD. Every time a gun is reloaded - EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Manned or unmanned, manned by someone with the current ammo type or not - the gun should load standard ammo. When a Gunner selects an ammo type, a timer is begun. When the reload OR that timer completes - whichever comes first - the new ammo type is locked in. Abandoning the weapon or switchng to a new ammo type will reset the timer.
--- End quote ---

Is how it is currently. Just simple.
--- End quote ---

No, that isn't how it works. At the moment, unless you're manning that gun RIGHT AT THE MOMENT THE RELOAD ENDS, NO MATTER HOW LONG YOU SPEND ON THE GUN BEFORE THAT POINT, it won't load your selected ammo.

If your gun has a 5 minute reload timer, and you're manning the gun for the first 4 minutes and 59.9 seconds with burst ammo loaded, then leave right in the last 0.1s before the reload completes, it loads standard ammo. If you leave the gun the instant you've fired the last shot from the clip, and come back 0.1s before the reload completes, you can get your selected ammo to load. I'm suggesting to change the former, but also to keep the latter.

Obviously the 5 minutes is exaggerated for effect, but you can see the point, right?

Also, when you have burst ammo selected, and empty a clip (or manually reload), as long as you're manning the gun, it will show burst clip as the loaded ammo type.

I'm proposing a SECONDARY TIMER, shorter than the reload time. At any time during a reload, you can select an ammo type to initiate the timer, and if that timer completes with you still manning the gun, your selected ammo type will be locked in EVEN IF YOU LEAVE THE GUN BEFORE THE RELOAD FINISHES. When you reload, the ammo should automatically revert to standard shot, so if you have your ammo type selected, it will have to be locked in again for the new clip that's being loaded.

Unless they changed it in an update after I made the original post, what I'm proposing is definitely not how the game works.


--- Quote ---In another note, all classes are equal, the only thing different is how many slots they have. So no exclusive functions for each class.
--- End quote ---

You might want to re-read what you think you're arguing against. I specified this proposal to work for ANYONE manning a gun, NOT exclusively for the Gunner class. At one point I made an ambiguous use of the word "gunner" and explicitly labeled and clarified that I DIDN'T mean the suggested effects would be limited by class, but that they would be available to anyone manning a gun.


--- Quote from: Sprayer on November 30, 2014, 10:14:18 am ---By reading her text past that paragraph it becomes clear that she didn't mean what she literally wrote. (assuming female cuz "obliviondoll" seems a female name to me) She suggested a mechanic that allows to change the ammo type whithout the need to man the gun at the time of reload completion by adding an option to change the ammo at the start of the reload.
--- End quote ---

Thank you for trying to "defend" me, but you're wrong about what I wrote not matching what I meant. I wrote exactly what I meant to write, Crafeksterty misread my post. Apparently, in spite of somehow understanding it correctly, so did you. But you're right about what I "meant to" write, which, funnily enough, is ALSO what I actually wrote. You man the gun for a short period at the beginning (or in the middle) of the reload, and don't have to be there when the reload ends. Also, I'm a guy, not a girl, although I'm not surprised you got the opposite impression from my name.


--- Quote ---I didn't exactly get how the 2nd solution is supposed to impact on the 2nd problem - are you suggesting "changing the ammo type should reduce reload times" or "staying on the gun long enough for the lock in timer should reduce reload time"?
--- End quote ---

Both. I'm suggesting that different ammo types could have different modifiers to your reload time. But the reload time modifier wouldn't be applied until the ammo type is locked in.


--- Quote ---On the 3rd thing: buffing the clip instead of the gun for a fixed timer is a new suggestion as far as I know. However, it'd make the buff tool viability very inconsistent among all guns. Buffing a gatling would yield a bigger gain per invested time than buffing any lower ammo gun. Of course, that is assuming you still would need 8 buff hammer hits to buff any gun. Also this would probably break another of muses paradigms and muse loves their paradims to the grave.
--- End quote ---

Redesigning the mechanics of weapon buffs would obviously require changes to how buffing weapons works. Maybe more or less hits could be required to buff a weapon based on the ammo count. Maybe more or less of a damage bonus could be applied per shot depending on the ammo count. Maybe it would need to be rebalanced some other way.

And maybe, as I said in my first post, it isn't viable for Muse to implement as a change anyway.

Sprayer:

--- Quote from: obliviondoll on November 30, 2014, 02:26:19 pm ---[...]
Thank you for trying to "defend" me, but you're wrong about what I wrote not matching what I meant. I wrote exactly what I meant to write, Crafeksterty misread my post. Apparently, in spite of somehow understanding it correctly, so did you. But you're right about what I "meant to" write, which, funnily enough, is ALSO what I actually wrote. You man the gun for a short period at the beginning (or in the middle) of the reload, and don't have to be there when the reload ends.
[...]
--- End quote ---

Two individuals who couldn't be more different from eachother in their views and thought processesses read it in the same way and differently than you meant it, believe me, you didn't write it clear enough.

Well, I do like the timer idea even though I don't think it would change my gunner/gungineer routine. That is, unless that timer is set to "instant" in which case I would switch the ammo right after the reload on some guns. (more like go to normal and back to the ammo I had before to exploit it) This would actually buff gungineers as well since there wouldn't be any misloads anymore when you jump off the gun to whack it with the buffhammer.

The second poposal would only buff the dpsr (fancy huh? that's how I call dps with reload) but on most if not all guns on which gunners are not viable right now the dpsc (dps per clip duh) or damage per shot (no acronym wtf) matters much more.

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