Info > Release Notes

Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes

<< < (9/27) > >>

Wundsalz:

--- Quote from: Keyvias on October 27, 2014, 02:19:03 pm ---Yes we will be making leaderboards with the correct information and they are on their way. In the meantime though, we don't want bad information to spoil matches.
We talked about removing it all together except for some key points:
-Players like showing off level
-It is still good to see if you have a low level on your ship

--- End quote ---
Matches played might be an interesting alternative as well. Level - and more so matches played are an indicator for experience (note the difference to skill) after all. It helps to evaluate whether it might be worth to show someone the ropes - and which ones (basics like "this is a spanner, whack red stuff with it" or less known repair tricks like "Did you know you can repair the Galleons main engine from below?").


--- Quote from: Keyvias on October 27, 2014, 02:19:03 pm ---As for greenhorn vs vet:
Greenhorns don't leave matches. Stats-wise it's the higher level player that will ditch the match more often than not. Their level isn't hidden from their crew though so even if they're a level the captain is not comfortable with he will know and can plan accordingly.

--- End quote ---
do you refer to leaves during the lobby phase or during the airship-minigame phase? I'd really be surprised by the latter, because vets tend to have a rather high match completion rates. The former wouldn't surprise me at all, as I'm picky with which lobbies to play myself and until you stop putting me into matches as 2nd or 3rd gunner or try to balance a horribly stacked lobby with me that won't change.


--- Quote from: Keyvias on October 27, 2014, 02:19:03 pm ---We tried to make a matchmaker and keeping many of the legacy elements from the match list like friend join, no penalty leaving, rematch

--- End quote ---
Frankly I think you've been a bit to clingy on some legacy elements which inhibit match-making.


--- Quote from: Keyvias on October 27, 2014, 02:19:03 pm ---[we] tried to give the quickest, most balanced, experience while retaining as much flexibility as possible.

--- End quote ---
Flexibility (stuff like friend-lobby-joins) and quickness (match-making giving elapsed wait time a huge weight in the algorithm) influence balance negatively and vice versa. Personally I'd like to see balance prioritized more at the cost of the other two goals. I'm sure opinions differ here and especially on the flexibility part I don't think it's possible to shift the focus more to balance without pissing off those who prefer flexibility. However regarding quickness I think you can cater both parties: Those who like to hop into matches asap and those who prefer waiting a couple of matches to play with people on par with oneself against people on par with oneself. You could allow the user to set a preference in the options (e.g. a thresholds for maximum glicko-rating standard deviation in a match and/or allow the user to alter a wait-time coefficient in the algorithm).

Hoja Lateralus:

--- Quote from: GeoRmr on October 27, 2014, 03:12:39 pm ---I'm still of the firm opinion that a glicko2 rating is irrelevant when it comes to this team based game and that the systems mechanical definition of a "better" player based on win/loss is probably as far from an accurate representation of skill as the progression system.

--- End quote ---
I said it multiple times. I can be best engineer in the world but with captain lvl3 I won't do much.

As I stated above level measures experience and although experience =/= skill per se it's still really important. And no, I won't play with two lvl1's in my crew. Nuh-uh, not gonna happen.


--- Quote ---As for greenhorn vs vet:
Greenhorns don't leave matches. Stats-wise it's the higher level player that will ditch the match more often than not. Their level isn't hidden from their crew though so even if they're a level the captain is not comfortable with he will know and can plan accordingly.

--- End quote ---

They do, but during game. And as I said - I won't be playing with lvl1's because it's frustrating. I don't mind the mediocre players around lvl20 (if they listen to advice) but being a nanny over second engineer and having your gunner loading lochnagar to gatlings is no fun AT ALL, and therefore when I see players with that low level I prefer to leave the lobby.


--- Quote ---Match list is max flexibility with 0 balance and 0 speed.
--- End quote ---
I disagree. Lobbies may be unbalanced at first but after time they go to some average, either weaker players leave and lobby goes stronger or the other way. I've had very balanced and very quick games in 1.3.7 and I had very unbalanced and slow to find games in 1.3.8. From my perspective it's no evolution here. Also since 1.3.8 I have been in 3v3 lobby... once. Literally once although I always check the 3v3 thingy. I even made the thread about game modes and sizes that will be forever forgotten...

Some compromise may be two separate system. The custom games as in 1.3.7 and the matchmaker with all the restrictions you need to make games balanced. I think it's the best solution (apart from trashing matchmaking entirely, but I assume this is not agreeable by Muse :D)

Keyvias:
@Geo
It's wrong in the form of balance or skill.

Is it good for showing how much you've played? You bet.  Is it a good way to reward players with items, definitely.


As far as glicko2, it's pretty spot on for how a game will go. For the past 6 months we've been able to predict winners with frightful regularity based solely on glicko2 score.  We've put this system in-game behind the scenes keeping track of you to test it long before we made it a part of the game.

If you're using crew form or friend join for a majority of your matches it's possible you're not seeing the most balanced games though they will be unbalanced towards you if you avoid the matchmaker (and you're high glicko score), but overall the matches are more balanced, meaning each side has a better chance of victory.

@Wundsalz
You can still see the levels of your crew on your ship.  Just in case you get a newbie we didn't want to leave you in the dark on it.
Yeah for the leaving on vets, I was talking about lobbies. As far as second gunner that was in the match list as well, you'll need to ask people to change or use the recommended loadout captains tool on them.
As far as the legacy elements, let us know which ones you don't like or don't need and let us know. We're happy to free up matchmaker to make faster more balanced games.
I agree on balance being priority, but a lot of feedback both from in-game and in-testing pushed towards speed and flexibility.  We're still investigating this though and doing some behind the scenes changes to the algorithm to be a bit more aggressive on balance.

Keyvias:
@ Mr.Disaster
Let's say you're in the top 2% of the glicko2 score.  Your ability to win consistently in many situations makes you a high rated player.  Let's say you matchmake and there are 20 people in the queue and all the other games are either full or in-progress. In this situation you'll be match with probably the lesser players on your side to make the match as close to fair as possible. Does this mean you'll lose more than if you could join any lobby and find one with a more favorable situation? It does.
You can't have balance and be a very good player and not be match with lower allies (when you don't crew form or friend join.) Mathematically, it just doesn't work.

You can disagree on balance, but we've been running the numbers for months, there was a whole bunch of terrible balance pretty consistently.

Wundsalz:

--- Quote from: GeoRmr on October 27, 2014, 03:12:39 pm ---I'm still of the firm opinion that a glicko2 rating is irrelevant when it comes to this team based game and that the systems mechanical definition of a "better" player based on win/loss is probably as far from an accurate representation of skill as the progression system.

--- End quote ---
I disagree with this. Considering the complexity of GoIO I think treating the player as a blackbox is the way to go. Glicko2 is a well established standard which yields good results for other games so I don't see why it shouldn't work for us. Sure- especially with a low match-count the rating will lack accuracy and precision, but still, even in this case, it will yield a rough estimation which is better than anything else we've got so far.


--- Quote from: Keyvias on October 27, 2014, 03:33:21 pm ---As far as the legacy elements, let us know which ones you don't like or don't need and let us know.

--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: Wundsalz on October 24, 2014, 05:24:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: Keyvias on October 24, 2014, 02:05:21 pm ---Features that hurt balance
Rematch
Crew Form
Friend Join
Ship/slot swapping
Spectator swapping
Lobby leaving without penalty
Custom matches
Server Location
Speed of matchmaker

If there are any things here that you don't think are vital definitely let me know.

--- End quote ---
Rematch - I don't need this
Crew Form - I want this. Let me play with friends!
Friend Join - crew form should be sufficient
Ship/slot swapping - no, this blatantly contradicts the goal of matchmaking. Get rid of obsolete features please! I'd rather like to have one working system than 2 which inhibit each other --edit-- Intra-team swaps should be fine though
Spectator swapping - what's spectator swapping?
Lobby leaving without penalty - If matchmaking would be able to reliably place me into balanced matches with a low skill deviation, I wouldn't mind a penalty for leaving a lobby. However as long as you place me into ships as a second gunner and/or try balance a rookies vs. mediocre players matches with me, I'd prefer to have the option to say no to your systems silly suggestions.
Custom matches - those are necessary for scrims, cws and other events. They should not be integrated into the match making system.
Server Location - I only want to play on US and EU servers.
Speed of matchmaker - I don't mind waiting a minute or two... or 5-10 if that ensures I'll be fielded with good players against good players.

--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: Wundsalz on October 25, 2014, 04:59:17 am ---In order to make match-making work, the match making system needs to be in charge of matching players for matches.
Currently there are a lot of elements which completely undermine match-making. This corrodes the system to a degree that it's not able to fulfill its purpose - personally I don't see a major difference between the current match-making and the quick-play button we've had a while back.
If we want to make matchmaking work, the system needs to be restrictive - just take a look around what other games with matchmaking do! Many mobas have got a way larger player base and only need to match 10 players which are sort of on par, rather than 16 which are needed for GoIO. Still they restrict the size or pre-made parties and regard them as THE major problem which prevents balanced matches (see Smite matchmaking).

I doubt a proper matchmaking is possible unless the players "flexibility" is restricted. That being said I'm not comfortable with relying on the matchmaking system entirely until some infancy problems are resolved - multiple gunner matching, and the insane skill deviation (lvl<10+lvl45 captain vs. 2 lvl 30ish captains[Remark: As the debate poped up here: read this as "shitty glicko2-rating + good rating vs. 2 mediocre ratings" I'm talking about skill and just used levels here because, unlike the glicko2 rating, it's accessible ingame-information]) in particular.

--- End quote ---

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page