Issue with games on holidays

[Squash]

Yeah, like how they reschedule football games so they don't conflict with Thanksgiving.

This post was spliced from another topic. It was about an issue of cogs games on Easter weekend would effect attendance. Just some context since I can't splice first posts.
-ATeddyBear

[Helmic]

Which a lot of people think is shitty as those football players aren't home for Thanksgiving, even though that's their job and they're being paid to be there.  As for the spectators, sitting in front of a TV with the whole family is different than wandering off to your office by yourself to play or watch the Cogs.  They shouldn't be given priority over something like a major religious holiday, that's pretty unfair to a lot of people who recognize it.

[Papa Paradox]

Which a lot of people think is shitty as those football players aren't home for Thanksgiving, even though that's their job and they're being paid to be there.  As for the spectators, sitting in front of a TV with the whole family is different than wandering off to your office by yourself to play or watch the Cogs.  They shouldn't be given priority over something like a major religious holiday, that's pretty unfair to a lot of people who recognize it.

A.) If certain players can't accommodate the times, sub in players that can, we all know the majourity of clans have a metric shittonne of people.
B.) Don't be awkward, you wanna watch COGs? You watch COGs, don't be a sheltered nerd, rock out with your suave nerd balls out, esports is a thing, let's help make the culture thrive and grow.
C.) You're asking for reverse discrimination, if people have shit to do then pick priority's, would a uni student ask for the COGs to go on hiatus because of an intense exam week? No. Did they stop COGs for St.Paddy's Day? (Irrefutably the most important holiday in the world.) No. Sorry to break it to ya, but they can't accommodate everyone, so they have to stick with a rigid schedule, such is life.

[Helmic]

Well, I'm speaking as someone that's struggling to get the eight people needed to enter the Cogs.  Should we participate this would be a serious issue, we'd be down a lot of people.  Not everyone who wants or will want to participate is going to have a massive clan to draw quality subs from.  That this thread was made means at least one clan can't just sub in people easily.  If you don't accommodate for the viewers and participants, you're doing something horribly wrong.  No one is being paid to participate, no one should feel obligated or be penalized for something that's so easy for those organizing the events to plan around.  No one is requesting an off week for Saint Patrick's, it's Easter when when a lot of people are going to be at church or with their families.  This is not an unreasonable request, it's pretty common even for businesses to close for the event.  You wouldn't be too thrilled about being told to suck it up either if you were in his shoes.

You guys are being unreasonable about the Cog's importance.  There's no prize money at stake, we're not Starcraft II, this is for fun and entertainment even if we aim to make it as big as we can.  Telling people to just suck it up is making it less friendly and fun.  It's a bad idea to do tournaments when a good portion of the participants are going to be busy, period.  Saint Patrick's day isn't going to be anyone's busy day.  1 PM EST on a Tuesday?  Bad idea, most people are going to be at school or work.  Finals week?  Also a bad idea, a lot of colleges are going to have finals at around the same time so suspending the Cogs for a week or two would probably make everyone's lives easier.  Easter and Christmas?  You sick fuck.  That's just stuff those organizing should be planning around, they should know the people playing and be able to accomodate them and their audience.

I mean, you guys are acting like he's asking for everything to stop for him personally because he's got a job interview or it's his mother's birthday or some shit.  This isn't some unforeseeable event that can't be planned around, it's not like it's just for one person.  It's probably too late to do anything about THIS matchup, but those organizing should probably take this into consideration so this doesn't come up again.

[Phoebe]

I'll have to agree with Helmic here

There seems to be quite a gap in expectations and how people value and interpet The Cogs event;- can we please continue identifying it as a community event and not a professionals league please?

[Papa Paradox]

Well, I'm speaking as someone that's struggling to get the eight people needed to enter the Cogs.  Should we participate this would be a serious issue, we'd be down a lot of people.  Not everyone who wants or will want to participate is going to have a massive clan to draw quality subs from.  That this thread was made means at least one clan can't just sub in people easily.  If you don't accommodate for the viewers and participants, you're doing something horribly wrong.  No one is being paid to participate, no one should feel obligated or be penalized for something that's so easy for those organizing the events to plan around.  No one is requesting an off week for Saint Patrick's, it's Easter when when a lot of people are going to be at church or with their families.  This is not an unreasonable request, it's pretty common even for businesses to close for the event.  You wouldn't be too thrilled about being told to suck it up either if you were in his shoes.

I would've loved a week off from St.Paddy's, but according to you I should suck it up, because you just arbitrarily decided one was more important than the other, even though the importance of holidays varies from person to person. Ergo your statement just invalidated itself.

You guys are being unreasonable about the Cog's importance.  There's no prize money at stake, we're not Starcraft II, this is for fun and entertainment even if we aim to make it as big as we can.  Telling people to just suck it up is making it less friendly and fun.  It's a bad idea to do tournaments when a good portion of the participants are going to be busy, period.  Saint Patrick's day isn't going to be anyone's busy day.  1 PM EST on a Tuesday?  Bad idea, most people are going to be at school or work.  Finals week?  Also a bad idea, a lot of colleges are going to have finals at around the same time so suspending the Cogs for a week or two would probably make everyone's lives easier.  Easter and Christmas?  You sick fuck.  That's just stuff those organizing should be planning around, they should know the people playing and be able to accomodate them and their audience.

So what you're saying is: It's unreasonable to be dedicated, but not unreasonable to postpone someone else's fun? The casters have to get up at ungodly hours, there are players who have it even worse than them, but still they tough it out, don't ask for accommodations. I don't much appreciate being called a 'sick fuck' for being practical either.

I mean, you guys are acting like he's asking for everything to stop for him personally because he's got a job interview or it's his mother's birthday or some shit.  This isn't some unforeseeable event that can't be planned around, it's not like it's just for one person.  It's probably too late to do anything about THIS matchup, but those organizing should probably take this into consideration so this doesn't come up again.

We aren't, we're simply telling him why it's damn near impossible to accommodate when there is such a diversified spectrum of race, religion, and geographical locations we can't pick whose rules to follow. So we make a rigid schedule, teams accommodate based on who can make it. Which is the way it should be, if a player is injured: He gets subbed. Family issues: He gets subbed. Can't make it because his family values a certain holiday: He gets subbed. Notice a trend in how competitive play works?

Teams accommodate leagues, sorry. As douchey as I feel for saying that, it's the unadulterated truth.

[Phoebe]

Papa Paradox;

In the original post MasX made a statement. He didn't ask for none; nor express anything to be done about it.

He said it was going to be tough;- which is true - and he said other clans will experience the same problem - which I can only imagine is true.  Your tone however leaves a sour taste in my mouth and that's what is getting to me and helmic both.

Not everyone in the cogs sees it as "Competitive Play" and not everyone should either.  It's a community event;- it's fun and as Squash pointed out it's fundamentally a spectator experience.  Most of all it should remain a democracy where - if planned on easter - people should be fine in stating a dissapointment that it's scheduled on easter weekend and we should be able to have some form of civil debate to see what we can do about it.

What you are doing is definitely not constructive; and that doesn't only count for you - it also counts for Squash's first comment referring to a pro sport and Helmics choice of words - the tone was set badly from that point on.

[ATeddyBear]

This is the new spliced topic that was pulled out of MasX's post. If you feel I have missed anything out of the old post let me know. I will move it here

[Squash]

I didn't start this.

[Helmic]

I didn't start this.

Yeah, it'd be better to just copy over the whole thing, it's not like the discussion was culled from a big thread.  It'd be nice to have some context for those just tuning in.

I would've loved a week off from St.Paddy's, but according to you I should suck it up, because you just arbitrarily decided one was more important than the other, even though the importance of holidays varies from person to person. Ergo your statement just invalidated itself.

That's... not the correct use of ergo.  I didn't say that I thought it was less important, society at large has decided that Saint Patrick's Day isn't one that we get off work for.  If a clan had a significant number of Irish players then yes, it should be considered when scheduling the Cogs.  Just like if there's a Russian team and a major Russian holiday falls on the date of their match, the match should be rescheduled because no one wants a match to just not happen.

So what you're saying is: It's unreasonable to be dedicated, but not unreasonable to postpone someone else's fun? The casters have to get up at ungodly hours, there are players who have it even worse than them, but still they tough it out, don't ask for accommodations. I don't much appreciate being called a 'sick fuck' for being practical either.

It's not unreasonable to be dedicated.  It's unreasonable to demand that sort of dedication, though, for what's supposed to be for everyone's enjoyment.  I mean, I know I'd be pissed if the only reason I got into the Cogs is because poor scheduling prevented my opponents from showing up, that's denying me a good match over something that could be easily prevented with a little foresight.  The "sick fucK" thing is obviously a joke, much like how consensual sex in the missionary position is an ungodly perversion.  I'm sorry if that came off wrong.

We aren't, we're simply telling him why it's damn near impossible to accommodate when there is such a diversified spectrum of race, religion, and geographical locations we can't pick whose rules to follow. So we make a rigid schedule, teams accommodate based on who can make it. Which is the way it should be, if a player is injured: He gets subbed. Family issues: He gets subbed. Can't make it because his family values a certain holiday: He gets subbed. Notice a trend in how competitive play works?

Except nothing says we HAVE to make things difficult for these teams if we can prevent it.  Making an inconvenient schedule for the sake of an inconvenient schedule is just being spiteful, you're doing a service to neither the players (who have to miss out on a real match) or the spectators (who aren't given a real match at all).  As for accommodating for a worldwide playerbase and audience, it's prioritizing based on the playerbase (times are generally going to have to work for the US) and the teams currently playing (again, my example with the Russian team).  Skipping a couple weeks every year isn't going to throw everything into chaos, not all holidays are going to just happen to take place on a Saturday.  Rescheduling can mean just having the match the day before or after if that's doable.  I can bet you right now whoever's organizing this doesn't want to cause the participants any trouble because of something like this.

You're not distinguishing between something that's unforseeable or personal (someone's injured) with something forseeable and affecting a good portion of a team (a major holiday, important street protest, internet shut down because X country is now a police state).  If it was POSSIBLE to schedule for every individual person you bet we'd expect the schedule to be made for everyone's convenience; it isn't so we have to accept one person being sick at the last minute isn't enough to justify rescheduling.  It is possible, however, to look ahead on the calendar and notice that "Hey, this week is going to be finals week for a lot of people, let's hold off until those are done and just have some exhibition games in their place."

Teams accommodate leagues, sorry. As douchey as I feel for saying that, it's the unadulterated truth.

It's completely unnecessary with a bit of proper planning.  The league was made for the players, not the other way around.

[ATeddyBear]

I didn't start this.

Yeah, it'd be better to just copy over the whole thing, it's not like the discussion was culled from a big thread.  It'd be nice to have some context for those just tuning in.

I can't splice out first posts, but I updated the first post in this thread with the context

[Linen]

There seems to be quite a gap in expectations and how people value and interpet The Cogs event;- can we please continue identifying it as a community event and not a professionals league please?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Cogs is meant to be referred to as a weekly scrimmage rather than a professional league.

It's just a game. If you have to sub less skilled players and drop a spot it's not the end of the world. Hell even if your booted for a no show it's even possible to return the very next week depending on how many new challengers there are.

Remember it's only early days for Cogs. If the organisers realize that certain dates are drawing substandard numbers of spectators and competitors I'm sure they'll take that into account.

Inversely some of these dates (for example holidays) might be perfect for other people to get in on the fun without work or school looming.

Just thought I'd pop in some of my points that got left in the last thread.

[Papa Paradox]

Inversely some of these dates (for example holidays) might be perfect for other people to get in on the fun without work or school looming.

That's a great point, some people find it more convenient to have it on holidays, because of the amount of free time associated with it. It really comes down to how an individual prioritizes, which is hard to plan for, and we don't want to forsake the dedicated by making them wait a week in limbo. I know it's not the end of the world, but a lot of people invest a lot of time at being the best. Ducks, Gents, Merry Northern Storm, ect who do take it very competitively shouldn't have to wait on people who play a lot more casually.  I love how this got a lot more civilized <3.

PS: Ergo means therefore, so that was the proper use.

[RearAdmiralZill]

As much as I dont want to touch this with a 10 foot poll, I feel Papa needs some help.

First of all:

Not everyone in the cogs sees it as "Competitive Play" and not everyone should either.  It's a community event;- it's fun and as Squash pointed out it's fundamentally a spectator experience.  Most of all it should remain a democracy where - if planned on easter - people should be fine in stating a dissapointment that it's scheduled on easter weekend and we should be able to have some form of civil debate to see what we can do about it.

The scheduled Training Day is a community event. Like it or not, Cogs is the Official medium for "Competitive Play." It takes a level of organization to get a team in, and if you want to stay in, that organization has to stick around. Enter groups and clans. We manage to keep the organization.

Swallow also dictated early on that this was not a democratic affair. Now that being said, an outcry of the entire community and teams involved would surely lead to a change im sure.

But its not. Only MasX stated it would be hard. They still played, and won. If any of our teams couldnt field 2 full boats, we would have to bow out and take a loss. We know whats going to happen. The Cogs does not bar you from reentering. Hell, Id be willing to bet that if there was a majority of teams saying, hey, we cant make it due to *Insert holiday here*, a rematch or postponement of the Cogs could happen. As you said, its a spectator event. No one wants to watch two teams with half ai. If we did that then you might as well stream normal matches.

But dont come pounding your fists in a forum thread about the Cogs not caring about holidays you want off on. This is a video game. We know the challenges of fielding teams on saturdays that happen to fall on a holiday we enjoy. This is why we all have alternates. If you enter the Cogs with no alternates, thats a huge risk you take. Life happens.

So to finish, we still ran the Cog matches today just fine. Crows were undermanned if im not mistaken, so while Easter may of required a few alternates, it didnt need a weekend off. We all live and die by the same rules of the Cogs. Unless a vast majority of community complains, and a vast majority of teams simply cannot be there (thus ruining the chances of good streaming and competition), then I see no reason to get angry about it and field what i can.

[Helmic]

It's not an issue of a majority, it's an issue of who's participating.  While it's great they still won, it's still something that could have been avoided had they spoke up earlier.  Yes, some holidays are going to make it easier to participate for some people, but "easier to participate" for people who can already participate is pretty meaningless.  It's a Saturday, the time was chosen because it's when most people are going to have the free time to get on, holiday or not.  Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, those are holidays where you can reasonably expect a number of people to not be present; skipping a week isn't going to mean death for the Cogs, it means that it's going to be a reasonably fair fight.  Not everyone who wants to participate is going to have as many people to draw quality substitutes from.  While it's just reality that they're going to have to deal with their own things that pop up it's pretty unreasonable to just write off holidays as poor planning on their part when it could so easily be fixed with a little planning from the organizers.

It's pretty simple: a couple weeks ahead, mention that so and so would like an off week for finals or Easter or Christmas or whatever.  Two or three weeks are skipped out of the 52 we have each year, no one feels like they lost their spot because they're from X country or practice X religion.  If you're being facetious about it, your request is denied.

There's seriously no need for this "live or die" attitude, there's really no great reason we can't skip a week every once in a while to better fit common schedules.  This is a weekly thing, a break once in a while is a good thing.

It's just a game. If you have to sub less skilled players and drop a spot it's not the end of the world. Hell even if your booted for a no show it's even possible to return the very next week depending on how many new challengers there are.

If rankings are supposed to be treated like they're not worth holding onto, there's no meaning to the Cogs.  The whole reason we're having this discussion is because people care enough about the Cogs to want to keep their rankings but not enough to blow off something like a major holiday, nor should they be expected to when it's pretty easy to schedule around stuff that.  Moving the match to the day before or after is not going to inconvenience someone like having most of your team gone.

PS: Ergo means therefore, so that was the proper use.

I think I phrased that wrong.  It's a logical fallacy as I didn't make the claim, nor would making the claim "invalidate myself."  The whole little quoted bit was pretty nonsensical.