Problems with matchmaking

[Wundsalz]

hmmmmm.

yesterday I flew in a match that had a level 45 pilot and a level 1 pilot (that had only played a couple matches) together, and a couple of level 20-30 pilots on the other team.

and you know what?  the match was balanced.  it was actually a very long deathmatch - a close game.  the matchmaker seemed to do its job.

...but I'm not sure the situation served the novice very well, and I was on the ship with the level 45 captain - I know he was frustrated.  and while I'm not one to get frustrated easily at someone else learning something new, I understand when other people do.  some people just want to sit down and play - and in a teamwork-based game, they don't want to carry the whole match with half the team falling behind.  it did happen some with the old system too...but not like this.  this isn't the only time that someone's vented their frustration to me with very similar circumstances within the last couple of days, not by a long shot.

This is problem matchmaking CAN resolve, but the current implementation doesn't. The current Match making implementation is too eager to drop players (and veterans in particular) into matches ASAP. I suggest to let vets wait for a couple of minutes to mix them into existing vet-matches rather than trying to balance horribly stacked lobbies with them.
I'd like to share a post I've made in the dev-app section a while back, as it's still valid for the live version we all play right now. In the current state of matchmaking I think muse addressed point 2 insufficiently. Currently we experience the scenario described in b). I don't like that.

In oder to create "good matches" the system needs to minimzie two things:
1.) The difference between the average player rating of the matched teams (this is to ensure the outcome of the match is as open as possible)
2.) The deviation of the player rating in the match from the average player rating (this is to ensure that noone has to carry "deadweight" aroung)
In order to do both jobs properly the system needs to rely on a sufficiently large enough pool of 'matching' players is 'available' at any time someone hits the ready button. I do believe our player base is large enough to match-make the vast majority of players fufilling both requirements rather well, which will likely increase the average match quality significantly.
However I doubt the system can cater the needs of veteran players properly. That's because the playerbase of veterans is rather low - especially outside of EU/US-prime-time. In order to deal with us via matchmaking you've got two options:
a) let us wait until a sufficiently large number of "fitting players" is available (which would probably mean that you'll have us wait until that one running vet-match is over while we watch a queue-timer) or
b) match us against average players with less useful partners. This is how other games often do it and it tends to yield "balanced" matches in which the "moster" tries to accumulate kills faster than the "feeder" dies to the enemy. That's rarely enjoyable, despite the fact that the outcome of the match is hard to predict.

[sparklerfish]

100% agree with Wundsalz.  While it might be more "fair" to quickly throw some higher-skill players into a low-skill team against an average-skill team, it's not fun at all.  I'm not a CA or teacher because I can be abrasive and low on patience, and I don't like to spend half a match yelling "SPANNER TO REBUILD!  MALLET TO REPAIR!  THINGS HAVE A COOLDOWN!  REPAIR OTHER STUFF!  AIM AT THE HULL!!!" to someone who has played 2 matches.  I would much rather wait longer to matched up with an entire lobby of players with a lower deviation of level/skill/however it's measured.

[Omniraptor]

Bragging rights? I kind of want every achievement to also be a badge..

[Mezhu]

Once a game's ended, people should be returned to queue if they wish to continue playing, either solo or with the friends they initially queued with. This way lobby quality will improve over time, as people will either end up in the same lobby (assuming there's no better one) or in one they're better fit for. If there's a lvl45 pilot in queue and 3 lvl 5 pilots, they shouldn't be placed in the same lobby at all. At the very least, ask the minority to switch to another class that has somewhat of a lesser impact in the outcome of the game and the enjoyment factor for the rest of the players (and himself).

Also scramble makes no sense anymore. Game 1, you're lvl 40 with a lvl 1 ally vs lvl 38 and lvl 5 ally. Game 2, lvl 40 is with the lvl 38 versus the lvl 1 and 5. ()

Instead of scrambling ships and further reducing a lobby's quality just send everyone back to queue. If they are so eager to rematch or whatever there's always custom games.

ps; Wunds is ofc right. I'm horrified of queuing alone (even more than I was of playing alone in the past), as the game tends to throw me into a lvl 5 ship versus a full 2 ship stack in a dumb attempt to balance things. If game's superempty at a moment and there's no people playing, keep it as is. Otherwise, matchmaking should take a look at currently running lobbies and the players within them, and have freshly queued people wait accordingly. Once these running games are over, and the participants are thrown back into the queue, there will be far better potential balancing of the next few games, resulting in more happy players.

[Keyvias]

Hey Guys,

Just got out of a hour long call about this subject so I want to share some behind the curtain info, thoughts, and reasoning. It's also very important to note that balance isn't something obvious (in most circumstances) especially since levels and Glicko2 score are very very different.  There are many level 20s that share the same glicko2 score with 40s and vice versa. Even beyond this I do agree that matchmaking does not prioritize balance as the main focus.

Any match system is built of three pillars
Time
Flexibility
Balance

Time is obvious, the amount of time you force a player to wait to find a match. Flexibility is things like friend join and crew form, basically anything that lets players have control in any form. Balance is well.. balance.

@Mezhu you're definitely right that the rematch button does sacrifice the number of people in queue and contributes to less balanced matches, but so do many elements of the system.
Matchmaking has gone through a lot of changes through it's development through it's time and based off player outcry there were a lot of concessions that improved the flexibility of the system, but decreased the time or more often the balance.

Features that hurt balance
Rematch
Crew Form
Friend Join
Ship/slot swapping
Spectator swapping
Lobby leaving without penalty
Custom matches
Server Location
Speed of matchmaker

If there are any things here that you don't think are vital definitely let me know.

The more of these we can remove the better we can balance the game.  If none of these existed we could promise quick and perfectly balanced matches all the time with very few edge cases, but we'd sacrifice all flexibility. We love the idea of playing with friends, but statistically matches started with crew form are less balanced than matches started solely from single queue players. In this case though we view being able to play with friends and have that flexibility, as greater than balance.

We will of course be fine-tuning and tweaking the system to maximize every area we can and we if we ever have a clever or improved idea we'll put it in, but in the meantime I thought you guys would like to know how we tackled this problem and the decisions we made.

[Mezhu]

Imo, the ability to spectator/ship/slot jump or friend join should be removed to begin with. These just contribute to a poorer lobby balance and are easy to abuse. There's crew formation for people who wish to play together.

[Milevan Faent]

The problem is, people will raise hell if join friend is removed. I propose an alternate idea. Have the matchmaker try to match crews that form together with eachother more often than not. This way, a weighted team is fighting a weighted team, rather than having a 3v3 match with 3 level 30-40s vs 3 crews that were randomly dropped in there, most of whom are below 15. While no indication of skill, that does show a lack of experience. Especially for players in the lower single digits.

[redria]

Rematch - Shouldn't be needed. If I really need this we can make a custom game.
Crew Form - Necessary to play with friends. This one is good.
Friend Join - Just wait for your friend to finish their match. You should really only be able to join a friend if they are in a lobby before the match has started and there is an empty slot, not join mid-match.
Ship/slot swapping - Not necessary. If I want to be on someone's team/ship I will crew form with them.
Spectator swapping - Not sure what you mean by this... The ability to become a spectator? I'm not sure I'm really a fan of this. I imagine spectator in a different role...
Lobby leaving without penalty - There should be a penalty, but only if rematch is not a thing. I can explain that if need be.
Custom matches - Custom matches should be fine if you can open them to the public freely and it gives you a warning if the current population won't support your custom lobby (100 players are online and 50 make custom matches).
Server Location - Necessary - I'll come back to this.
Speed of matchmaker - Let's come back to this too.

My catch on this is the match options you can set when you ask matchmaker to put you in a game.

If I take the time to ask for a specific set of circumstances for my match, I should never be put in a match that does not meet those circumstances no matter how long it takes.

I view entering the matchmaking queue as a contract. I am telling the matchmaker "Here is what I want. Find this for me, no matter how long it takes, and place me in a semi-balanced match. If you do this, I will trust you and play the entire match and will not leave the lobby."

If I want to join with a crew, I am giving my own restrictions. If I want to play in a nearby server for better ping, I am giving my own restrictions. If I want to play pilot, 2v2, no CP, then I am giving my own restrictions. I am happy to wait, but if I wait only to be placed in a 3v3 CP as a copilot, then I will be upset and feel justified in leaving.

Spectator slot should be a waiting queue for people who want to play with a specific person but that person is in a match already. I can go watch them play and spend my time viewing until they finish.

A lobby should open and close for each matchmade match so a player gets placed, plays a game, and gets moved back out into the main menu to find another match. From there they can play with the same people, or go alone. The current system for that works well, but the option to rematch creates half-empty lobbies that are best matched by placing the same people back in.

Currently I don't trust the matchmaker to put me in a game I want. I will watch the details and if it mentions that it is loosening restrictions, I have to leave the queue and rejoin to make sure I actually get what I want. Not good.

I guess I'm imagining the Awesomenauts matchmaker except with the ability to find and spectate friends that are mid-match, and with the ability to specify game types and character classes etc.

[Wundsalz]

Features that hurt balance
Rematch
Crew Form
Friend Join
Ship/slot swapping
Spectator swapping
Lobby leaving without penalty
Custom matches
Server Location
Speed of matchmaker

If there are any things here that you don't think are vital definitely let me know.

Rematch - I don't need this
Crew Form - I want this. Let me play with friends!
Friend Join - crew form should be sufficient
Ship/slot swapping - no, this blatantly contradicts the goal of matchmaking. Get rid of obsolete features please! I'd rather like to have one working system than 2 which inhibit each other --edit-- Intra-team swaps should be fine though
Spectator swapping - what's spectator swapping?
Lobby leaving without penalty - If matchmaking would be able to reliably place me into balanced matches with a low skill deviation, I wouldn't mind a penalty for leaving a lobby. However as long as you place me into ships as a second gunner and/or try balance a rookies vs. mediocre players matches with me, I'd prefer to have the option to say no to your systems silly suggestions.
Custom matches - those are necessary for scrims, cws and other events. They should not be integrated into the match making system.
Server Location - I only want to play on US and EU servers.
Speed of matchmaker - I don't mind waiting a minute or two... or 5-10 if that ensures I'll be fielded with good players against good players.

[Mezhu]

Spectator swapping refers to joining a game as spectator, picking a side on your own and joining it as a player. In current implementation, a mm lobby will also allow a player to change sides by first swapping into the spectator slot and then rejoining any side he wishes, but that's just a bug I assume.

[Wundsalz]

If that's so I'd like the spectator to be able to join a team if he wishes to, but only if it doesn't ruin the matches balance (glick-rating check).

[shaelyn]

I'd actually prefer more flexibility over the balance.  the restrictions add frustration and stress, and in the end make the experience as a whole less fun.  fun is what I'm trying to achieve, and while balanced matches are a lot of fun, I don't go into this game expecting a perfectly balanced match every single game.  and hell, I've had a match where the crew and I sang Still Alive as we got stomped.  it was hilarious and awesome, would repeat.  it's not the balance that makes the game fun, it's the people that I crew with.  I want to be able to crew with the people that I have fun with whenever I want, and easily.

I would still rather see match list go in alongside matchmaking - use the matchmaker to fill in the crevices and balance where it can, and to bring the people that don't want to hunt for a match an easy way into a match, but let those of us that want to search through for something more specific do so.  no, it won't be balanced, but it's not balanced now, either.  I am willing to concede the match list completely with good reason (balance would be a good enough reason, but again, it's not balanced now, so I don't see any reason for the match list to not exist right now), but I absolutely do not want to lose the ability to quickly and easily hop into a friend's match, especially not for the sake of balance.  the current system is still much too restrictive.

Mezhu, swapping slots through spectate was a feature the player base that tested the game fought for, since they removed the swap slot function otherwise and still want to restrict.  when I first tested, they didn't allow people to move from spectate at all - but a lot of people move to spectate for a match while they're eating or answering a phone call, or they'll start in spectate and want to jump in once a slot opens up with their friends.  additionally, sometimes people try to join their group of friends and wind up on the wrong team.

[sparklerfish]

I 100% agree with everything Shaelyn articulated way better than I could.

[TeddyBearMafia]

I 100% agree with everything Shaelyn articulated way better than I could.

Basically this. +1

[Squidslinger Gilder]

I 100% agree with everything Shaelyn articulated way better than I could.